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BS”D
You can put a chador on over a shell and a burqa on over just about anything and it will be kosher. If you follow this minhag, tin foil or orange plastic is most recommended for your chador or burqa. As is well known said tin foil or plastic should not come from a tzioinish source.
Mekor: “Extreme Tznius for Real Dummies” by Rebbetzin Izevel Tzoiah Yachne Schmoigerman
I was reading your posts about wearing perfum, and my question is this:
Over Yom Tov I was sitting next to a lady that smell so bad I had to change places.
Is that tzeniut?
No. But I doubt she did that on purpose.
Smalltowngirl posted: “I believe that we need to acknowledge that the rebbitzen is just as human as we are.
As far as the labeling…whether you label me or I label myself…it is very often improper, unkind, and maybe even inaccurate.
We should also acknowledge that the Rav is as human as we are.
Labeling people is certainly inaccurate. People are multidimensional, and do not neatly fit into little boxes. In general, the ones who classify (label) people use the most superficial attributes to do so. (How could it be otherwise, since nobody can read minds or intentions, and many midot are not apparent to the outside world).
The fact that labeling is often cruel, and causes hurt or embarrassment to people, is too often overlooked.
It is a G-d made weakness designed into human nature. Man must control it, but that does not alleviate the tznius issues.
Recently I was at a mall and there were two (non-frum) girls there. Neither were dressed tznius, but one was worse than the other. Some guy made a comment to the girl who was wearing very revealing clothes. I didn’t hear what he said, but from the look on her face, she was not happy. Then her friend said you have to expect that if you’re going to dress like that.
Of course men are weak in this area, does that make it right to dress so that should drool over me? Ewwww…. Why would anyone want to have that?
My point is; Ain l’davar sof. No matter how women are dressed; you are going to have this issue.
And it’s interesting; years back when “frum women” did not cover the knee or elbow, the men were also of a different mind set and the problem was not on the front burner. I think our women should be extolled for their accomplishments in areas of tznius, not criticized.
No matter how women are dressed; you are going to have this issue.
Ein hochi nami. 1) Men need to control themselves. 2) Women need to dress k’halacha. Two separate (albeit related) issues.
YES NY Mom, we do need to teach OUR daughters.
I didn’t give birth to girls but the girls in my community are mine (to a certain point) And I do try as a mother of boys to let them know that certain outfits are simply not up to their particular caliber. That they ARE different and as a bas Yisroel need to act and dress accordingly.
I’d love to team up with you anytime on this.
“That aside, in the time to which you are referring, there was not a widespread frum female educational system like there is today. The bar is higher now. If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?”
So you think the halachos changed? That’s the problem – people turn chumros into halachos, and expect everyone to follow them. If you don’t, you’re looked at as a sheigetz/shiksa. Keep to the basic halachah, and don’t put unnecessary chumros on people. It only leads to people resenting them, and not following even the basics.
Feif – No, the halachas do not change. In the past, there was widespread ignorance in some areas and the halachas were not followed properly.
NYMom, the way MO people choose to keep tznius is the same way other groups (Yeshivish, Chasidish etc) choose what halacha they keep as well. People pick and choose what they keep.
As to specific pskei halacha – some issues (like pants, how much hair to cover, length of sleeves) are not as clear cut as people make them and some rabbis pasken differently.
NY Mom, do you ever speak lashon hara? That’s picking and choosing. Everyone picks and chooses, from all spectrums.
I’m not denying that MO people sometimes pick and choose what halacha they follow. I’m just explaining its not a MO thing.
I might be mistaking the gemarah, but if I recall, there was a story about someone who had to walk somewhere and he passed women bathing or laundering, he either had to walk with his head down or told the women to move or something, he was chastised and told that he should have taken a different route. It is not only up to the women, the men have a responsibility as well.
Furthermore, like everything in life, human nature tells us that if you harp on only one issue, it’s not good.
truthsharer
he was chastised for taking a route that would lead to temptation, instead of avoiding temptation.
ok, but the point remains that the burden was on him, not the women.
BS”D
Wait a minute! Aren’t spaghetti straps only an issue on Pesach because of chometz issues?
no
the point has nothing to do with the women and what burden was on them. it makes no statement about the womens obligation for tznius
the point is that a person should not only not sin but that he should not place himself in a situation where he would be tempted to sin. the same point would have applied if instead of women it was mcdonalds.
“If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?”
Perhaps this is the problem. Instead of making sure girls are up all night studying for tests that ensure their fluency in Rambam and other subject matter and instead schools taught hilchos tznius and basic hashkafa, girls would know what is and what is not considered proper according to halacha and will also know how to behave within the spirit of the halacha.
More girls today know more Rambans than many of the Rambans own talmidim and many bachurim know more R’ Chaims than most of the gedolim who lived in Brisk yet we are in a situation where we are discussing the fact that females dont dress according to halacha and men are doing little to nothing to stop it.
There are a few of us, who have differences of opinions when it comes to labeling other Jews, and the proper definition of “who” a Rebbitzen. I think what NY Mom was trying to get across to the people of this thread is that she is just a “regular” Orthodox mother, who wants to give her opinion and hear feedback on the matter.
I just wanted to let that out, so please, go on with your conversations everyone! Enjoy 🙂
I think if we had a campaign to be machmir on all aspects of “bain adam l’chaveiro”, with no exceptions; all of these other issues would soon end.
NY Mom – You gave the perfect response.
NY Mom – The “bain adam l’chaveiro” starts with us. By being wonderful role models in “bain adam l’chaveiro”, the znius model will be imitated as well.
It’s funny, I never worry about my wife competing with anyone; she’s just perfect, as is.
Tznius is not the cause of Shalom Bais issues: Hachnosas Orchim is. When you have a couple over for a Shabbos meal and the husband is articulate and speaks in sentences or the wife is the perfect tz’nuah but is put together well; this kinah I hear from Rabbonim undermines Shalom Bais.
I think I understand what cherrybim is on to, it’s actually a very good point.
So part of being tzanua has a lot to do with behavior….
“However, when someone decides not to cover her hair when she is married, she is b’shitah saying to the world “I do not cover my hair and that is OK”. She doesn’t acknowledge that she is doing wrong.”
Many people do things wrong, openly and knowingly, but still do it. Don’t take that as thinking its correct anymore than the tax evader who is still openly accepted by his shul really thinks his theft is ok.
As to the shalom bayis issues – I thought certain things were more kabbalistic in nature. No one is going to convince me that if a man sees a woman with a sleeve that is 1/4″ too short, he is going to stray. Why we have the boundaries we do is simple halacha, but you aren’t talking about observant women wearing bikinis – you are talking a matter of inches. If a man says he was tempted by the 1/4″, I wouldn’t believe him, especially because general society exposes so much more than we do.
I just wanted to say-that i am utterly shocked at what girls and women are wearing today! i have some news for you-NOT EVERYTHING IS TZNIUS! just by adding a shell ( which most of the time does not cover the back of your collar bone ) doesn’t make the garment ‘kosher’. The short pencil skirts are disgusting! Forget about covering knees when sitting, WHAT ABOUT COVERING EM WHEN YOU’RE STANDING?! it seems like tznius is so ‘last year’…I don’t know what has gotten into people these days! I once heard a powerful remark- think, who are you trying to impress the shcheina or the shechina?!
You are so right gezuntheit.
Rebitzin Zahave Braunstein z”l said As men have the mitzva of learning Torah ladies have the mitzva of Tzinius. Are we ready to give it up just because of what other people may say.
When going to a Rabbi for whatever reason are we happy with what we are wearing or do we need to find some more “frum” clothes?
If Moshiach comes now will we be happy with our mode of dress?
Don’t discard such a special mitzva
Thank you estherh! This issue in particular just gets me so mad! We are pushing away the shechina!
oh, and i forgot to mention, It’s practically assur for a man to go outside these days with his eyes open! So if you can’t be tznius for your own pride and dignity, at least do it for the men who want to take a walk outside sometimes!
Gezuntheit, I agree with you. I just tell my husband and boys, just try to look at the ground, instead of around, you can find some money that way. Just the other day, I found $20 bucks…
Some women get really offended when the tzinus issue is brought up and go on the defensive and say that men shouldn’t look at a woman anyway. Those women don’t realize how hard it is for a man not to look. As a woman, it is our responiblity to be as modestly dressed as possible according to the Halacha and when not dressed according to Halacha, you are causing others to sin.
mazal77 – So what do you do when you want to take a walk sometimes and are modestly dressed according to Halacha and you are still causing others to sin since it’s so hard for a man not to look at a woman?
That’s why the really frum wear a burka. Don’t laugh, it’s coming. The future of Judaism will be Burqa Babes roaming the streets, R”L.
Cherrybim, Well, at least I know I have done my part. I make sure my head is covered and my skirts are past my knees, sitting or standing. Trust me I am not a person who has people looking at her. I tend to keep a low profile and never wear anything attention getting.
Unfortunately, it has become acceptable for many frum women and girls to wear straight, tight, skirts that are just above or about the knees.
Truthsharer, while I wouldn’t wear a Burka, you should know, that when Moslem women are dressed modestly it gives the Yismaelim power over the Jews. We as jewish women have to be dressed modestly according to Halacha.
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