Tznius

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  • This topic contains 222 replies, has 38 voices, and was last updated by  NY Mom 10 years ago.
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  • #662455

    truthsharer
    Member

    I’m not sure why squeak and ames are up in arms. All I wanted to know is if ames never asks her rav for the source.

    I remembered the last time I asked my rav something, he looked at me and said “Let’s go find out.” And we proceeded together to lookup the halacha to my query. It’s a terrible thing when you can’t question. That was all I was posting. You can now stop with your immature insults and put downs.

    #662456

    truthsharer, there is a proper way in which one asks a question to their Rav. Once there is psak given no woman should question her Rav. Get a new one ? Maybe, but we don’t debate with our Rav – he is not our chavrusa.

    We may ask to explain the reasoning/meaning or ask for a source to better understand the psak – but challenge? No way – not appropriate!

    #662457

    squeak
    Participant

    NY Mom,

    I definitely don’t think that saying “Now THERE’s a tsniusdig outfit” is the right approach. That’s not a compliment – you are calling attention to her wrongdoings.

    How about being much more simple: When you see her dressed b’tsnius, say “You look nice today” and no more. Never call attention to the mistakes.

    People usually know when they’re doing right and when they’re doing wrong. If you compliment her appearance when she is tsnius, and say nothing at any other time, she will understand on her own what you are appreciating (on a conscious and/or subconscious level). Don’t be surprised if after a while she starts to walk straight over to you every time she is wearing something tsnius, just to get your approval. That’s how powerful this method is.

    #662458

    truthsharer
    Member

    ames, that is not what I’m saying. All I’m saying is that it is entirely appropriate to ask your rav how he got to his conclusion. You never find a SHUT sefer that doesn’t do that.

    Perhaps it’s different with women, but I can’t see any self respecting man ask a rav a shailah and then walk away. 99.999999% will talk to the rav and question and ask sources and debate if necessary. It’s called learning. That might not fit into the BY notion, but that is how it’s done in the real world.

    #662459

    feivel
    Participant

    but I can’t see any self respecting man ask a rav a shailah and then walk away.

    i am a self respecting man, and fairly knowledgable in Halacha. I RARELY ask my Posek for his source and would never debate with him. i ask a shaila then i walk away, as generally does everyone that i know (who are all self-respecting men). I have great respect and awe of him and feel like a worm in his presence. He is not my Chavrusa and certainly not my buddy. His time is extremely valuable and in demand. I may have gaivah, but not enough to demand he spend his time to satisfy my intellectual curiousity. I can grow in Torah from him by attending his shiurim and asking questions respectfully there when he asks if anyone has a question.

    #662460

    squeak
    Participant

    SHUT is probably an acronym for Shaylos U’Tshuvos. Which is a very nice thing to study, but it is not something that you are supposed to use to find a psak for yourself.

    #662461

    ames

    I don’t know what SHUT Seforim are either. I googled it and the only hit that came up was this very thread.

    #662462

    truthsharer
    Member

    feivel, that’s a terrible thing then. Most rabbanim actually want, and probably enjoy, when they are questioned. It’s a way to solidify the learning. If I am told something that makes zero sense to me, I ask, and if it still doesn’t make sense, I can press for a better explanation. I don’t buy the “it’s just not done” explanation, and I see nothing wrong with asking a rav for a source, or questioning a rav to get an understanding on his reasoning. I recently went back to one of my old shuls and noticed the rav there still davening the way (whatever the case was) our “debate” ended up. Until then, he hadn’t thought of my logic, but once I didn’t just take his word for it, he realized he missed something and he changed.

    #662463

    squeak
    Participant

    80 – hang in there and you’ll soon see.

    How did you do that? No one told me you joined the Moderating team!…80

    #662464

    truthsharer
    Member

    Shailos U’Tshevus. Sometimes I’ve seen it as SHuT.

    #662465

    Bemused
    Participant

    NYMom; Squeak,

    Usually, I don’t enjoy joining the pointless CR debates (it’s like participating in the same play repeatedly, with the unfair rule that everyone needs to keep their roles and can never change costumes :-)).

    However, both of you presented important thoughts that I think are more alike than not, with a bit of tweaking.

    NYMom, your pain regarding the deteriorating tznius situation is shared by many other women. In the past 2 years, there has been a startling change in the what is perceived as socially acceptable dress.

    Squeak, I had shared your exact thought with a family member yesterday. Reading your posting, I wondered if I know you :). I believe that the “culture of tznius” you mention is the only way to turn the tide.

    Now…NYMom, you don’t need to word your praise in such a double edged way :), though I lol at your version! Try this: “I LOVE your sweater. When I was shopping the other day, I tried on some that were similar, but couldn’t find one that wasn’t so revealing. Yours is perfect; where did you find it?!”

    Or, “How were you able to find such a nice skirt that is loose enough to be tzius? I LOVE that style, but I just couldn’t find something tznius in that style- you’re a great shopper!”

    Or, “This is a gorgeous sweater, it really brings out the color of your eyes. It’s sooo tasteful; fitting you properly so it’s not all tight and revealing- I love your taste”.

    #662466

    feivel
    Participant

    feivel, that’s a terrible thing

    it all depends, of course, on the Talmid, on the Rov, on the relationship, on the shaila, and on the situation.

    please do not be so quick to condemn and belittle the mehalach of others

    #662467

    truthsharer
    Member

    feivel, I’m talking about say a general question and you ask your rav and he answers in a way which makes zero sense to you. You are a learned man and you know that something doesn’t add up. Why is it disrespectful to ask a follow up question and get to the bottom of it?

    #662468

    mepal
    Member

    Bemused: Are you kidding?? I’d HATE if someone told me that!

    #662469

    squeak
    Participant

    80- that’s funny, because they told ME when YOU joined.

    Bemused- I’m very proud that you were mechavain to me 🙂

    #662470

    feivel
    Participant

    feivel, I’m talking about say a general question and you ask your rav and he answers in a way which makes zero sense to you. You are a learned man and you know that something doesn’t add up. Why is it disrespectful to ask a follow up question and get to the bottom of it?

    in the situation that you describe, it is NOT disrespectful and i certainly WOULD ask a follow up question, as you suggest.

    this is NOT the situation that myself or anyone else thought you were referring to. Apparently we misunderstood you.

    #662471

    truthsharer
    Member

    I never said anything else. Questioning is how we learn and how we pasken. It’s been like this for thousands of years until the past few years.

    EDITED

    #662472

    Bemused
    Participant

    Mepal,

    It might depend on your tone and manner of expression. It’s hard to convey that in blog comment. In fact, I have used similar lines (they come out stilted when written, and my examples aren’t exact) and the outcome has been exactly as Squeak predicted: the individuals complimented go out of their way to approach me when wearing something tznius, and I have formed close and warm relationships with individuals with whom I had previously had more casual neighborly (but warm) interactions.

    Most women truly want to do what is correct, and admiring them for tznius choices supports this desire and decreases the voices urging more and more inappropriate and revealing clothing (unless one always has voices in his head, in which case I would recommend a good psychiatrist :))

    Squeak, I was actually quite flattered when I saw I was mechavain to you! 🙂

    #662473

    mepal
    Member

    Bemused: I dont know… It would drive me up the wall hearing such comments about tznius all the time. The thing I remember that “worked” for me when I was a teen, was when a parent complimented me on what I wore, with NO mention of tznius there. (Ex, “I like what you’re wearing.” Thats all.) I picked up the hint from there, that what I was wearing was appropriate.

    #662474

    squeak
    Participant

    mepal, exactly.

    #662475

    Bemused
    Participant

    mepal,

    Perhaps that is the misunderstanding- I would think it quite strange to make dress related comments, not to mention tznius related comments, all the time! Socially inappropriate!

    A well-timed comment on an extremely rare occasion facilitates awareness and pride in dressing tznius- anything more is not only counterproductive, it would be odd. Brief comments of “I like what you’re wearing”, as you mentioned, are also helpful occasionally.

    If you can make a comment directly complimenting the tznius aspect of someone’s clothing, and feel genuine sincerity, it is taken in the most productive way. The glow on someone’s face when being complimented in this way is exquisite, and the experience can alter one’s path. If you feel you are “in a play” when making such comments, they will not come out right, and be more of a turn-off than a turn-on. When in doubt, don’t, and stick with the generic. As in many areas, less is more! (Not fabric, that is :).)

    #662476

    Bemused
    Participant

    Additionally, mepal, there is the age factor. An older person may come across more effectively and genuinely in some comments, and the reverse is true in others.

    #662477

    NY Mom
    Member

    Bemused and Squeak: I get your drift. I might give it a try, if I feel comfortable doing so.

    But I still feel there is a place to decrying a lack of tznius in a general way and in an open forum such as this. As you can see there is also a confusion as to what is and what is not actual halacha when it comes to tznius. For example, I posted that a prominent Rav in Brooklyn pasken that wearing socks/stockings to cover ones feet/legs is not a minhag but a must l’halachah. Then Ames kindly asked her Rav this question regarding the Sephardic community, and you see the reaction it has gotten. Pashute Yid paskened from the Mishne Brura that socks are optional, and Truthsharer negated Ame’s psak in one sentence!

    Obviously, there needs to be clarity here, and complimenting my neighbor on a tzniusdik skirt is not going to mitigate that need.

    BTW, thank you for taking time to post something thoughtful – both considerate and well-thought-out.

    #662478

    mepal
    Member

    Bemused: Let me make sure I am understanding you. You think it is strange to make dress related comments without mentioning tznius? I did not receive those comments from my parents frequently. And when they came, I knew what they meant.

    On a side, regarding making a comment directly complimenting the tznius, I would assume it depends on who it is coming from. I would’ve hated hearing that from a parent. (Ok, maybe thats ‘case sensitive’. ;))Perhaps it would’ve been different hearing it from someone else though, but most people dont go around making such comments…

    #662479

    NY Mom
    Member

    Mepal: Bemused said Perhaps that is the misunderstanding- I would think it quite strange to make dress related comments, not to mention tznius related comments, all the time!

    I think Bemused means that it is strange to make those type of comments all the time. Instead you make A well-timed comment on an extremely rare occasion.

    #662480

    mepal
    Member

    Right, I got that. That is why I said that I got those comments infrequently. I still feel that leaving out the tznius part is more effective. A teenager is not looking to hear that. But then again, it may just be case-sensitive.

    #662481

    jphone
    Member

    “You never find a SHUT sefer that doesn’t do that.”

    The local Rav is not a SHuT Sefer. All SHuT seforim present the thought process, the analysis of all sugyos and sources and the outcome of that analysis. If that is what you want, dont ask the shayla, learn through the sugya yourself and discuss it with your chaverim

    Most Poskim dont have time for “why” or “what about the Pri Migadim” or “isn’t there a shita to the contrary?”. They have time to answer shaylos. If you respect the Ravs Daas Torah then also respect his time and certainly his dignity by not double checking and second guessing everything he says.

    #662482

    Joseph
    Participant

    mepal: Is upper-case or lower-case preferred? 🙂

    #662483

    mazca
    Member

    Well I have been reading your comments, and I think well I am not a Rav but I think that tzenius depends a lot were a person lives and the costums of that comunity. If in a certain community the women have to have their heads double covered and somebody doesnt abide by it. Then that woman is not keeping the laws of tzenius right. If a woman has to have a thick stockings in her community and she doesnt , I think she is not keeping the laws of tzenius right. Of course there are certain basis that a frum woman has to keep. We all agree to that. But it all dependes in her community.

    #662484

    Bemused
    Participant

    Hi mepal,

    The age of the “complimentee” (does the CR allow me to make up words?) We’ll let it pass just this one time…80 may also count. Perhaps a married 28 year old is in a different stage than a teenager, and comments need to be tailored to situation, complimenter and complimentee personalities, etc.

    Either way, it is wonderful to see a thread about tznius, and reflects well on every contributor to this thread.

    NYMom,

    I agree that a variety of approaches may be helpful. A thread in a general forum is very appropriate, and not mutually exclusive with creating a climate of “Tznius is IN”, one person at a time. However, you need to be prepared to address or ignore (as you see fit) responses from individuals who do not yet appreciate the need to work on tznius as a Klal. By it’s very nature, an open forum is very “open”, and a sincere discussion initiated on improving tznius can easily segue into “this is not an important issue to work on”. If you can maintain the focus of the discussion despite this, while keeping the tenor pleasant and goal-oriented, more power to you.

    #662486

    Jewess
    Member

    NYMom:

    A) Don’t tell me to chill out. I’m cooler than an ice cream bar.

    B) Yes, clothes make the man. We absolutely do portray who we are with our clothing. That still does not mean that that is all that we are. A woman who is wearing something more revealing than what you are comfortable with is still a “bat melech”. She may shine in other areas than tzniut. Tzniut is not the only thing that makes a Jewish woman special. We have other special mitzvot. (Challah, Shabbat candles and taharat hamishpachah, to name a few.)

    C) I’ll read and comment on whatever thread I want to.

    D) I wrote choking with two vowels, not one.

    #662488

    NY Mom
    Member

    Jewess:

    A) What flavor? And is it chalav Yisroel or chalav akum?

    B) You misunderstand again – please re-read my post. I never said that a woman who is wearing something more revealing is not a “bat melech”. I am asking a question. Since clothes send a message, what message is she sending to the people around her when she goes around in a short/tight skirt? Would you like to answer this?

    C) Please do! But then don’t complain that you’re sick of hearing something, when no one is forcing you to listen.

    D) Sorry, my mistake.

    #662489

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Please explain when long loose fitting skirts/dresses became untzniusdik and the same for denim; who made up these fake regulations? Our women are not sluts and if it was tzniusdik for many years; what changed in the halacha?

    Also, let’s suggest that women show some m’siras nefesh and add a few inches to their waists and a chin or two so they will be less attracting to the our men who want to sometimes take a walk outside. Their husbands can be moser nefesh for the cause too.

    And women, I know it’s great that you have all your hair covered, but that shaitel, you know the one that we tried to get you to wear for many years; well it’s just too good. Get rid of it!

    From the sound of some of these posts, I want to institute a new g’zeira: Women should not be looking at other women: at how they dress, what kind of sheitel they have on, what kind of make up they wear, their shoes, their bodies.

    IT’S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

    And it is also the cause of lots of sinas chinam and loshon hara.

    So women and men, if it bothers you, no peeking.

    #662490

    NY Mom
    Member

    cherrybim: Unfortunately, we live in the real world, where we interact with all types of people. So if my neighbor decides to come to shul wearing a too-short, too-tight, outfit, which I am embarrassed to look at, let alone someone’s husband, what do you suggest? Praise her for her “bein adom l’chavero”? Compliment her style?

    Or my choice: Ignore her style of dress and hope that she realizes that she, as a frum woman, has more value than what she is showing to the world?

    #662491

    oomis
    Participant

    “Since clothes send a message, what message is she sending to the people around her when she goes around in a short/tight skirt? Would you like to answer this?”

    I am totally against the wearing of short skirts for reasons of tznius, but the fact is that the message she is sending is that she is dressing like everyone else in the secular world. It is ONLY the people who dress in longer more subjectively modest clothing, who notice her. EVERYONE ELSE IS USED TO IT!!! And don’t misunderstand, I am not advocating that short skirts are proper to be worn, but you asked what message she is sending. To the world at large she is sending no special message whatsoever. That may say something negative about the world at large for being so desensitized, but it is what it is. And btw, in the 1950s FRUM women went to the beach in bathing suits, wore pants, sleeveless dresses didn’t cover their hair except in Shul and when they bensched licht,and sang in mixed groups with men (Bnei Akiva groups, for example) and virtually no one would ever have considered those Shomrot Shabbos, kosher, mikvah attending women to be untzniusdig. We live in a different time now, when these things have become a real lifestyle change for how we define frumkeit and tznius. I am not saying in any way, shape, or form that the Torah standards ever changed, only that there was a different type of acceptance fifty years ago. And in general, there was MUCH less sinas chinam back then, too. No one ever told the chassidish kids on my block not to play with me or eat in my home, just because my mother didn’t cover her hair all the time. Maybe it was not a perfect world from a halachic standpoint, but there was much good in it that we can learn from today.

    #662492

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Here’s the real world:

    Good Shabbos Mrs. Goldberg. Wasn’t that a wonderful drasha!

    #662493

    Jewess
    Member

    NYMom:

    A)Chocolate. Chalav STAM. (Chalav akum is not kosher.)

    B)That she is stylish, trendy, casual, sophisticated…depends on the skirt. Dressing is not ALWAYS about religion. My point is that wearing a skirt that may be considered not tzniut to someone else is not a way of branding yourself as an untzniut woman.

    C)I did not complain. I just stated a fact.

    D)It’s okay.

    It’s obvious that people look at others differently. I may look at a woman and see her style, or lack of it, and others may only see her clothing as tzniut or not. Some people think they are the fashion police, and others, the tzniut police.

    Cherrybim:

    Amen to your new gezerah: “Women should not be looking at other women: at how they dress, what kind of sheitel they have on, what kind of make up they wear, their shoes, their bodies.” I think that sometimes it’s jealousy that makes some women hate the way that others dress. They may be jealous that somebody else looks good, or they may be jealous that somebody else is dressed in clothing they wish they could wear themselves. Or maybe tzniut is not one of their harder struggles (or maybe it’s one that they’ve overcome), and they can’t understand how somebody else could dress in a standard that is below theirs. Either way, I’m not sure that this obsession that some religious people have with others’ tzniut is very healthy, both for their physical and spiritual health.

    #662494

    Bemused
    Participant

    NYMom,

    I think you understand now. Your intentions are good, but this may not be the best place for the topic.

    Now, if you had chosen the topic of improving Shabbos observance, you might have received some even-keeled feedback. I don’t think you would have anyone say, the bain adam l’chavero was great in the early days when countless were forced to work on Shabbos, so let’s not focus on the nitty gritty minutiae of the Shabbos laws; obviously, working on improvement today is unrelated to any specific ma’aleh of yesteryear; we should be working on ALL areas, and having made achievement or not in one area does not preclude working on another. Nor would you have someone say, we’ve come such a long way from the chilul Shabbos of early immigrant years, let’s applaud our hard working men for coming so far and stop obsessing over small things like squeezing sponges. You will also not hear things like perhaps you’re jealous of people who keep Shabbos according to halacha, and how about just stop looking.

    So, NYMom, you picked the wrong topic :).

    #662495

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bemused: Even considering the naysayers you refer to in your most recent posting, is that a reason to fail to encourage, through public discussion, proper mitzvah observance – be it Shabbos (which won’t bring out the naysayers) or be it tznius (which will)?

    #662496

    anon for this
    Participant

    I find myself deeply impressed by the statement that tznius is the primary mitzvah of women, just as talmud torah is the primary mitzvah for men. In most frum communities, men are encouraged to learn more torah through positive reinforcement, and it is generally understood that not all men have the same affinity/ ability in this area.

    In fact, according to Joseph’s posts in the kollel thread, even a wife earning a living to support her husband in kollel should only encourage & support his torah growth. She should avoid criticizing him even if she notices that he isn’t using his time as well as he can, since the main point is that he is growing in his learning. And this is something that she is not able to assess for herself.

    Perhaps we should consider a similar approach to encouraging greater tznius in dress. Ames noted in an earlier post that this positive approach is yielding great results in her community. And I agree with the example that squeak gave as well, of using positive comments (with an appropriate light touch) to encourage other women to grow in their observance of this mitzvah.

    NY Mom, I see that this mitzvah is important to you, and you indicate that you are very careful in how you dress. You seem to be concerned because some women around you are not as careful, and this is having a negative effect on men. This may be a legitimate concern, but perhaps you would accomplish more if you could try to manifest your concern in a more positive way.

    For what it’s worth, I probably do dress in a way that meets your standards, and I admit that I’m not very good at noticing other people’s clothing (I’ve always been a geek though I do make the effort to dress appropriately for special occasions). So this is an easy thing for me to say, and likely a lot more difficult to implement. You do have so much energy & enthusiasm and I know you could accomplish a great deal, & maybe this idea would help.

    #662497

    koma
    Member

    socks etc: another loose quote: Ben Ish Chai (Rav Yosef Hayyim of Bagdad) “Should one of our women (who dont cover their feet) go to the cities of Europe, she should cover her feet as they do, but she should still cover her hair even as they don’t.” A basic chumros of where you come from + chumros of where go are now deal.

    #662498

    Bemused
    Participant

    “is that a reason to fail to encourage, through public discussion, proper mitzvah observance – be it Shabbos (which won’t bring out the naysayers) or be it tznius (which will)?”

    Joseph,

    IMO, yes. When a sincere person begins a public discussion on improvement in a specific area, and instead of bringing like-minded people to the table to brainstorm on how to improve general awareness and greater appreciation for the mitzva, it serves as a magnet for mocking, trivializing, and elaboration on why it’s NOT a worthy area in which to improve, others read and are inevitably impacted. It doesn’t bring Kiddush Hashem, it brings negative vibes on the Mitzvah.

    #662499

    Gezuntheit
    Member

    I think everyone has to just realize-IT IS A MAJOR ISSUE! learn the halachos! if you don’t like this thread, don’t read it! And know that just because we’re pointing out one specific area, doesn’t mean that we are perfect in everything else! The work has just started!

    #662500

    NY Mom
    Member

    Jewess: I don’t mean to be argumentative (or maybe I do), but I don’t think you are seeing things from my perspective. So let me help you out in that area.

    Let’s say we are talking about someone named Leah (just a Jewish name picked out of a hat). And Leah went to Bais Yaakov of Who-Knows-Where. And she has been taught all her years in BYW that we are frum Jews. And as a frum female, it is incumbent upon us to dress in a way which we call tznius. And part of tznius is defined as (let’s just stick to the basics) wearing skirts covering your knees at all times in public, tops with sleeves covering your elbows and collar covering the collar bone. Let’s say that Leah grows up and she is no longer in BY anymore, but still lives in the same community. She is shopping for clothes and she wants to look good. She loves this cute outfit, but the length doesn’t quite cover the knee and it’s a bit too tight. If she chooses to buy it, her friends and neighbors, who all went to BY or Yeshiva of Who-Knows-Where, will see her wearing it.

    Don’t you think if Leah buys and wears that outfit for all to see, she is making a statement? I will answer my own question: Yes, she is.

    What I am trying to figure out is “Why does Leah, born and bred in a frum family, having gone to a BY, wear an oufit she knows is questionable as far as tznius goes?”

    Jewess, I have a feeling you are talking about a completely different scenario.

    I think that sometimes it’s jealousy that makes some women hate the way that others dress. They may be jealous that somebody else looks good, or they may be jealous that somebody else is dressed in clothing they wish they could wear themselves.

    This may be true of others, but it is not true of me. Why should I care if someone else looks good? If she looks good, I compliment her!

    You want to know why this bothers me so much? Because my husband, who is the most temimus-dik guy, who doesn’t even notice if a woman is 8 mos. pregnant, who turns away immediately if we happen to pass a not-tznius billboard – he is noticing and commenting in surprise and perplexity on what he is seeing in our area. Now, if my husband has noticed something wrong, it is as obvious as a sledge hammer blow.

    I am not the tznius police! I say nothing to my neighbors who dress in short/tight/clingy clothes. But inside I am dismayed and saddened for them. Is it wrong of me to want to raise the level of tznius in my area? Why would you discourage me from doing so?

    #662501

    NY Mom
    Member

    Bemused: When a sincere person begins a public discussion on improvement in a specific area, and instead of bringing like-minded people to the table to brainstorm on how to improve general awareness and greater appreciation for the mitzva, it serves as a magnet for mocking, trivializing, and elaboration on why it’s NOT a worthy area in which to improve, others read and are inevitably impacted. It doesn’t bring Kiddush Hashem, it brings negative vibes on the Mitzvah.

    Thank you for your concern and I hope that you are wrong regarding the negative vibes. But truth be told, I like to debate and I think it brings out more from me, if you know what I mean. Kind of like when chavrusos argue their points, it brings out more emes, forces them to dig deeper and think more to defend their positions or admit they are wrong.

    I take no offense at what anyone has said to me, and I hope that though I may express my feelings in a passionate way, I have not offended anyone. If they take my comments in the wrong way, then it is my fault for not having expressed myself properly. (Or if they have misread my comments I direct them to re-read, as you have seen.) But truly, I feel that it is imperative to bring an issue of this importance to the fore.

    May it only be for the benefit of the klal.

    #662502

    Bemused
    Participant

    If you can remain goal-oriented, NYMom, more power to you, and I respect you.

    I still feel discussion in some arenas may produce the opposite of the desired effect, but that is my opinion, and each must make their own decisions.

    May Hashem help you in this endeavor.

    #662503

    NY Mom
    Member

    Bemused: Amein, and thank you.

    I am trying at the suggestion of “anon for this” to keep my tone more positive.

    If I feel that the thread is backfiring, I might just end up taking your suggestion. But I am hoping like Shlomo hamelech says, “Hamayim kapanim l’panim”, people will see that I am coming from a sincere place and they will respond accordingly.

    Anon for this: Thank you for your words and for your suggestion. Please let me know if you see an improvement in my tone, and also let me know if you feel I ever step over the line in the opposite direction!

    BTW, I do try to be careful in the way I dress, but nobody’s perfect and I have what to improve on, as well. Lest anyone think that I am only looking outward and complaining/condemning, I am trying to be introspective and improve in whatever areas of tznius that I can, as well. We could all use the zchusim for whatever difficulties in life Hashem has chosen to grant us.

    #662504

    Joseph
    Participant
    #662505

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Good eye Joseph.

    A groise yasher koach to you Joseph.

    #662506

    cherrybim
    Participant

    That’s “reformulated” group.

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