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In fairness to the fake frum women and their immodest attire, their inexcusable lapse in observance isn’t coming from nowhere. Most of the frum world is very weak in emunah these days. the husbands dress more modestly than the wives, but aren’t necessarily filling the house with yiras shemayim. These things all go together. Unfortunately, even among the supposedly frummer people today, there has developed an equation of being frum with going to daf yomi class. all the other mitzvos and especially yiras Hashem have been lost. In many ways, the immodest attire is a symptom of a deeper problem.
It’s not just the five towns. It’s every town, some worse than others, and there are people who rise above. One of the most inspiring sights is when you see before you 9 immodest women and one modest one. There she is, a rose among the thorns, standing up against the pressures, letting her neshama shine forth. there are more than a few women who get it right and i admire them.
“On a side note, why shouldn’t there be hechsherim on clothing for shatnez? Talleisin have hechshers, but I’ve never seen it on normal clothing. Does it exist, and I just don’t know about it?”
It exists for certain chassidish clothing. the problem is that most clothing is made in the far east. it’s very expensive to have hasgacha on that. food in general is made under tighter conditions for fear of health problems, clothing is made often in sweat shops.
FSM says “One of the most inspiring sights is when you see before you 9 immodest women and one modest one… there are more than a few women who get it right and i admire them.”
Yes, but the OP is trying hard not to admire any of them, tznius or not.
You should be gebentched! Without reading through this thread, I have no doubt you’re being blasted by many who seem to turn a blind eye to these sort of things. There’s nothing wrong with mentioning that there is a problem. However, I need to tell you the problem is not only in that location, the problem is in many locations. Certain locations it is more prevalent than others. How many times can you walk through Borough Park, the holy holy holy Borough Park, and see people walking around in tight and barely barely barely covering the necessities clothing? And I’m talking people who should know much much better!
The point is not to rant against any particular location, I was just bringing an example. And I don’t want anyone to think just because I mentioned one location, that means it’s all okay everywhere. It’s not okay. We need to do better. EACH GENDER NEEDS TO DO ITS JOB. just because we need to improve ourselves doesn’t mean, things can’t be pointed out l’toeles ha’rabim.
You guys don’t see that yankeleh is a troll?
To FSM:
I suspect there would be a long line, whether in 5T or Bnai Brak or anywhere to interview for the position of Official Thorn Inspector who is tasked by the tzibur to identify the Roses amidst the Thorns and provide a friendly pashkavil to the latter reminding them of the obligations of a baas yisroel with resepect to tzinius. On the more practical side, such a position would probably be deemed illegal by the local courts as a civil rights violation.From all of these posts we see how difficult it is for us girls to be tznius why not take a new approach our good old power of tifilah. We should have a yom tifilah all over the world as we see tznius is a world wide problem and from all the posts we see it’s not getting any better what are we waiting we tried everything else and it isn’t helping things can get worse chas vshalom
The prayer should be that we all should enjoy being tznius like in the privies generations“Certain locations it is more prevalent than others. How many times can you walk through Borough Park, the holy holy holy Borough Park, and see people walking around in tight and barely barely barely covering the necessities clothing?”
It’s true that there are problems elsewhere, but there’s a difference between wearing tight, m’ikkar hadin tznius clothing and dressing beneath goyish standards (forget the halachah, they aren’t worried about it). When you come in and say on a thread like this that women in Boro Park wear tight clothes, it inherently comes across as though that’s lessening the gravity of the issue in the 5 Towns. We’re talking about a unique issue here; No matter how hard you look, Boro Park doesn’t have anything this bad going on. It’s just not comparable.
“It’s true that there are problems elsewhere, but there’s a “difference between wearing tight, m’ikkar hadin tznius clothing and dressing beneath goyish standards (forget the halachah, they aren’t worried about it). When you come in and say on a thread like this that women in Boro Park wear tight clothes, it inherently comes across as though that’s lessening the gravity of the issue in the 5 Towns. We’re talking about a unique issue here; No matter how hard you look, Boro Park doesn’t have anything this bad going on. It’s just not comparable.”
Stop denying if we don’t take a stand with Tehilla BP wiil become like the 5towns
@Modesty
Why do you say that we girls are trying very hard. In life challenges we take small steps. all because you see not tznius remember you don’t see our struggleWhat? Can you use proper grammar?
On the topic of clothing stores, I prefer to go to non-religious stores over frum stores.
Secular store workers or owners here me say “Yeah, I can’t wear that” or “It’s not tzniyus” or “Too short” and accept it.
Many frum people try to rationalize with me that it’s really fine and tzniyus.
I’m like…”Hello, who are you to tell me what I think I is tzniyus and what Hashem wants me to do?!”“On the topic of clothing stores, I prefer to go to non-religious stores over frum stores.
Secular store workers or owners here me say “Yeah, I can’t wear that” or “It’s not tzniyus” or “Too short” and accept it.”
When I shop @ frum stores they make me feel very guilty and less appreciate the Mitzvah. on the hand the secular store’s praise me on my level of modestyOn the topic of clothing stores, I prefer to go to non-religious stores over frum stores.
Secular store workers or owners here me say “Yeah, I can’t wear that” or “It’s not tzniyus” or “Too short” and accept it.The reason is because if you go to a goyish store they don’t care if you think it’s not tznius, they’ll sell it to someone else who thinks it is whereas a Jewish store if you tell them it’s not tznius they will take it as “you’re selling untznius clothes which they need to justify for themselves (not for you)
Several years ago, an op-ed in mishapacha magazine by Rav Leib Kelman, titled “where are the men” hit on an important point often overlooked in these discussion. Where are the husbands and fathers of these women.
It’s easy to point fingers at the women, but, like Rabbi Kelman asked in the article, the male gender has gone awol on this topic.
But as has already been established, an item of clothing can be good for one person and not for another.
Lashon Hara is negative TRUE speech. Therefore, whether or not evrything that was posted is true ro not it is ASSUR. And now each person who posted any negative comment about ANY Jewish community MUST ask mechila fro EVERY member of those communities- which is nearly impossibble- I wish you all much Hatzlocha! And next timeif you really have a question as such pr would liket o fixe the Jewish spiritual problems speak to your local Orthodox Rabbi for advice and guidance rather than this forum, as everyone has access to such a thread and it just leads to more aveiros and Kitrug from Shamayim. Do we really want more suffering and pnishment to come down to our friends and family because of this Lashion Hara and added prosecution this thread is bringing?
“the male gender has gone awol on this topic.”
Look what happens when we bring it up even behind internet anonymity. You end up with with the whiny, meikel crowd claiming everything from extremism to motzei shem ra. It’s PC, feminist culture creeping in and censoring the men. Some of them may truly not care about the halachah, but I don’t think all of them. Yes, I think they’re wimps for not speaking out about it anyway, but it’s not like they have nothing to lose.
Trustinhashem: I can’t tell if you’re a troll, an offended Jewish feminist, or someone who just watched an inspirational video and now think he knows hilchos lashon hara.
@coffee addict. I think they’re just trying to make sales.
Neville,
Do you think you’ll change someone’s mind and have them dress more tznius because of your post
Why post derogatory things about a community otherwise?
Shopping,
You think only Jewish stores only want to make sales?
CA: Do you think you’ll change Reform and Conservative Jews by saying what they do is wrong? If not, should we just let it slide and say nothing and pretend nothing’s wrong?
Joe,
No I don’t think you should tell them what they’re doing is wrong if they’re not going to listen, what’s the point, to make them a מזיד?
You shouldn’t let it slide in your eyes either
You should realize by now you can only change yourself and no one else
“Why post derogatory things about a community otherwise?”
None of our posts have been directed AT the non-tznius people in the Five Towns; I’m not sure how you read it that way. The point we’re getting across is that people should not make the same mistake as the OP and consider moving to the Five Towns under the assumption that it’s Charedi.
The same would go for Joseph’s question. If a frum person didn’t know what it meant to be a Conservative shul and they were considering going to one, you would have to tell them it’s a problem. Now, you could say that would never happen because everyone knows what a Conservative shul is. And, you’re right, but it didn’t get that way by everyone staying silent about it.
Let me ask you, do you also take issue with the threads on the CR, and the articles on YWN that have criticized the Open Orthodox community?
CA:
1. Giving tochacha is a halachic obligation.
2. In any event, we’re not even talking about giving tochacha to individuals; here we’re talking about crying out against a widespread public trampling of halacha, that’s not only an individual aveira but rather an aveira that the meizid baalas aveiras causes masses of otherwise non-sinners to become sinners b’shogeg (at the least). Among many other aveiras here we’re dealing with machshil es horabim, לפני עור, etc.
We do speak in general terms about how the Reform and Conservatives are very wrong. All the more so we should speak out and decry against the type of sinners this thread is discussing.
Joe,
Giving tochacha is only an obligation when you know the person will be מקבל it if you know the person won’t it’s לפני עור because the person will deride it and make more עברות
As it relates to this topic, everyone should be concerned about the dress of their own wife and daughter. As it relates to someone elses wife or daughter, try to be mechazek your friend so that HE can address whatever is necessary with his wife and daughters if need be. If you dont know how, speak to your Rav or Rebbetzin, or your friends Rav, or or Rebbetzin.
“kollel guys leaving bais medrash to create havoc on israeli streets on hiways and biways ”
Imagine they werent dressed appropriately to boot!
“As it relates to this topic, everyone should be concerned about the dress of their own wife and daughter”
What about the teenage girls living in an environment where they are felt left out when tznius. and part of the club when dressed not tznius.@cofee addict
I don’t, but when you say something isn’t tzniyus to a secular person there’s no way to argue otherwise since they don’t really know much about tzniyus. It’s kinda like “Well, if you say so” and they’ll shrug their shoulders. “If you need more help, or tell me more about what I can give you, let me know”.
To a frum person there’s what to argue about.
EVERYBODY PLEASE STOP POSTING ON THIS THREAD! IT IS ABSOLUTE LASHON HARA! THE 5 Towns is a wonderful community!
Gedolei Hador will tell you that anyone engaging on these silly discussions is not qualified to render Tochacha. All these comments are coming from maniacal and egotistical neophytes.
Modesty
“What about the teenage girls living in an environment where they are felt left out when tznius. and part of the club when dressed not tznius.”
It can be very difficult. The way to overcome it is by taking pride in dressing tzniusdik. People respect and trust those who hold true to their values even when it differs from
the crowd. The way to build up pride is by learning about the positive (and negative but focus on the positive) until it becomes so much a part of you that it is who you are.When I was in high school we had a wonderful curriculum where we learned how tznius is the Jewish culture, how it brings to kedusha etc. After the general introduction we went into the specific categories of how it applies (and the power of) sight, music, and dress.
One of my favourite classes. Wish all high schools taught this.
CA:
1. Giving tochacha is a halachic obligation.
2. In any event, we’re not even talking about giving tochacha to individuals; here we’re talking about crying out against a widespread public trampling of halacha, that’s not only an individual aveira but rather an aveira that the meizid baalas aveiras causes masses of otherwise non-sinners to become sinners b’shogeg (at the least). Among many other aveiras here we’re dealing with machshil es horabim, לפני עור, etc.
Since its a Mitzvah from the Torah to give tochacha for people not dressing tzniut in the 5 towns, I guess its OK to give Tochacha for communities that have tax evaders child molestors , People stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8
It is egotistical to use the word “neophyte”.
“People respect and trust those who hold true to their values even when it differs from
the crowd.”
I know this shittah comes directly from things that your Rebbe said, but it just clearly isn’t true today. Maybe it was 50 years ago. But, if you refuse to shake hands with a feminist, they aren’t going to “respect” you for holding by your values. Same goes for tznius; it’s just not the reality today.On a side note, I love to see how much this thread is trolling the 5-Towns-worshippers. It really warms my heart and makes me want to keep it going forever.
I guess its OK to give Tochacha for communities that have tax evaders child molestors , People stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8
Is the Five Towns free of all that?
ZD, go ahead. In which communities do tax evaders, child molestors or people stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8 parade their crimes in public?
Truly don’t know if the OP is a troll or not.
And, objectively speaking, Individuals in the 5 Towns and many other places have an obligation to themselves and to HKBH to make better choices in what they wear, no doubt.
Some of the comments from righteous, heilige posters here from communities and environments that justifiably see the immodesty here described as a pollution that must be stopped from infecting their community, they make me wonder…
Are your mosdos still soliciting funds from these families who don’t meet your standards? Are the Baalei Tzedoko in the 5 Towns, among the MO and CO who wouldn’t get the Omud, let alone an Aliyah in your shuls, still among the most important and substantive donors to your Yeshivas, your seminaries, your schools, your camps, your community safety nets? Because from my experience, they are exactly that, and they have been for a very long time.
Do you not find taking their money whilst proclaiming they are polluting the morals of am Yisroel to be even slightly hypocritical?
It seems to me, that if you have the courage of your convictions, it is dirty money. Its like buying an Esrog with stolen cash, and your mosdos are better off and purer if you don’t ask for or take their money.
So, the next obvious step for those who take this issue as seriously as they post about it, is to go to those who collect for these communal mosdos, even to the roshei yeshiva and manhigim, and DEMAND that they stop taking this filthy lucre.
Who’s first?
Lost in this thread is that it has become considerably easier for a baas yisroel to find clothing that is both fashionable and affordable. The issue in many of these threads is the constant drumbeat by men to become the fashion/tzinius dayanim for women outside their immediate family and sometimes seek to impose their values on others in inappropriate ways. Fortunately, we have not seen the abusive behavior by self-anointed tzinius police here in 5T or other frum U.S. communities as we have seen in several Chareidi neighborhoods.
It seems to me, that if you have the courage of your convictions, it is dirty money.
Don’t be ridiculous. Money belonging to people who violate certain (non financial) issurim isn’t stolen money.
Fortunately, we have not seen the abusive behavior by self-anointed tzinius police here in 5T or other frum U.S. communities as we have seen in several Chareidi neighborhoods.
That’s absolutely untrue.
Yichusdik, I think you’ve mentioned working for kiruv mosdos. Would you turn down a donation from a mechallel Shabbos?
Please don’t be disingenuous, DY. I didn’t say it was stolen, I said it was “like” buying an esrog with stolen cash in that it comes from an impure source. That it is dirty. And respectfully, DY, I’m neither being ridiculous, nor deserving of such a shot. Its a serious moral question.
And before you ask how I would act, that’s not the point. I don’t hold myself or my element of the community up as a standard far above others. These posters do exactly that, so, I’m putting their morals to the question that their posts engendered.
I think you’re being disingenuous by implying that I meant it literally.
There no shaychus between your two cases. Stolen money is stolen money.
Money earned by an avaryan isn’t in the same category. Not even close. The money didn’t come through the aveirah.
And before you ask how I would act, that’s not the point.
That’s an odd statement from someone calling others hypocritical.
“I guess its OK to give Tochacha for communities that have tax evaders child molestors , People stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8”
Who here said it wasn’t? What’s with you MO’s and singling out completely unrelated aveiros that nobody is defending as a justification for your own issues?
Yichus: Just sweep the money argument under the rug. You’re free to defend the Five Towns, but there’s no point in going down with that argument. The idea that a person has to take on the avairas of anyone from whom they receive money is not held of by anyone including you (as indicated by your unwillingness to answer DY’s question).
“In which communities do tax evaders, child molestors or people stealing government benefits like Medicaid or section 8 parade their crimes in public?”
Ain lidayan elah mah sha-anayim ro-os. Put another way, ever hear the saying, hear no evil, see no evil…
Dont be so disingenuous.DY, I have done, though I am working for a great Jewish organization that is not directly in the kiruv field at the moment.
In most cases, I would not turn it down. As I indicated above, I do not put myself, my community, my employer(s) or my ideals on a pedestal, and proclaim them to be the standard by which others should measure if they want to be considered “frum” “heilige” “erliche” Jews. So without that baggage, I can make a nuanced determination, with the input of the halachic authority of the organization, with my conscience, with the standards set by the board of directors of the org, and with the law of the land. Because I am not trumpeting my actions as the gold standard (or indeed the standard for anyone other than myself) I won’t suffer from that aroma of hypocrisy that is so hard to avoid once one has stepped in it.
“When I was in high school we had a wonderful curriculum where we learned how tznius is the Jewish culture”
That sounds great, we only touched the subject in elementary
But in high school not a word was ever mentioned
I guess because the teachers and principal themselves were very not tznius
“People respect and trust those who hold true to their values even when it differs from
the crowd” that is not the case if one day I’m motivated to be tznius and the next day I take it easyYeshivas and chassidishe mosdos do not turn away donations from mechallelei shabbos
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