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zahavasdad, I’m sure there are women who dress tzniusdig in the 5 Towns but when you walk down the streets they are full of pritzusdige looking frum women with very long wigs, tight clothing and short skirts. I’m from upstate, but sometimes I find myself in the city in certain frum areas in Brooklyn and the way frum women dress I find is repulsive and irresponsible, and brazenly and publicly trampling on halacha. We have it to a lesser extent where I live, it’s not so bad as certain frum communities in the city. The first time I saw a frum man with a kapl and beard and his wife walking next to him wore a mini skirt I was shocked. This is insanity.
The 5 towns is not in Brooklyn
The 5 towns is not in Brooklyn
Oh, I totally misunderstood this thread.
I thought the 5 Towns were Boro Park, Kensington, Flatbush, Williamsburg, and Bensonhurst.
Oh, I totally misunderstood this thread.
I thought the 5 Towns were Boro Park, Kensington, Flatbush, Williamsburg, and Bensonhurst. <.em>
Incorrect, the 5 towns are BP, Flatbust, Williamsburg, Monsey and Lakewood
Funny, I thought the 5 Towns was in Brooklyn.
Syag Lchochma, you are ok with you talking against those who dress pritzusdig but bashing others who are talking against immodestly dressed wome. Now I have no idea what you are talking about regarding judging these women. No one is judging immodest womens’ characters, nor judging any of their actions outside of the way they dress, no one is judging them in any way other than the way how they appear in the streets.
LLW, so why is it ok for you to judge when people don’t act b’tznius? Dressing like a ptitza is ok but acting loud and coarse can be judged? We can discuss both. Yidden should act and dress b’tznius.
However, I will say that sometimes women don’t realize that they talk too loud. They can be made aware. However it’s very obvious to everyone including the women who wear it, that the short skirts that they are wearing is not covering their knees, which is totally against halacha.
Tznius is so fundamental to a woman’s religious life and to community life and really not all that hard to do. Thus, if she is very lax in it, you can judge her and should judge her. If you dig into a person’s life and find that they don’t do something in private so well, that’s one thing. But in public? Then you deserve the jugement.
You mean the whole point of this thread was to prove that frum jews Ch”V live outside of Brooklyn R’L?
By definition if you live outside of Brooklyn, you’re not frum.
“ryingToStayCalmParticipant
Tznius is so fundamental to a woman’s religious life and to community life and really not all that hard to do”
How can you say that ?
It’s very difficult for us girls to dress tznius all the time (even part time) would you say to young teenage boy it’s very easy to watch your eyes just don’t look at us.
I guess you are not a girl.Trying to stay calm- that was a dumb post even for a troll
WinniethePooh, thanks. I am constantly striving to become better in Loshen HaKodesh and try to use the words in the correct terms ..I didnt have the privilege of learning Loshen HaKodesh well because the school I attended has a shittah according to their Rebbe that girls should be good wives and mothers and not learn as much as the men…I understand their shittah but I don’t agree entirely. I taught/ am teaching myself with Artscroll sedarim and sefarim and my girls’ notes from the school they attend ( b”H they are learning Loshen HaKodesh on an advanced level)… I’d love to be able to speak and write fluently in Loshen HaKodesh like I do in Yiddish and English but I can’t see that happening since I’m not speaking the language, only davening and reading it…maybe if I would attend yeshiva I would be able to speak the language fluently…but I don’t think they’d let me study there 😉
Syag Lchochma, please explain why it’s a dumb post to judge women who don’t dress b’tznius in public and negatively effect others. This is not only between Hashem and an individual, this effects men in general, besides that it also effects these women’s children in a negative way. It also effects women who think it’s ok to dress this way with the mentality of “if she dresses this way, then ok for me too” …
Judaism places a big emphasis on tznius because this is a yesod of Yiddishkeit!
Modesty, why is it so difficult to dress tzniusdig? A woman can be well dressed and a tznia at the same time.
Philosopher, the only reason I brought that up about behavior of an extremely religious dressed person is because non Jews can clearly see he is Jewish and is acting out of line. Jews are supposed to make kiddish Hashem when they are in public. If a person is wearing an outfit that you can’t tell they are Jewish, yes they should still act politely but if you are clearly Jewish you need to be more careful in public. If a women dresses with a skirt above their knees is unhalachic, who cares? How does that reflect their personality. . Maybe it is not proper, but if people are brought up a different way, who are you to judge? As long as they act properly and are a good person, the way they dress should not be the be all end all. There is too much criticism on the way people dress as opposed to how they act. How much chessed they do, how much they are trying to improve. This is all way more important than the look of having a shorter skirt.
LLW, you mean we should just be good Jews at heart and dress however we want? We just need to act nice to goyim and all is right ? Absolutely not. That is not what Yiddishkeit is all about. That is why women dress so pritzusdig these days because they are given the green light to do so.
We are supposed to dress and act b’tznius because this is what Hashem asks of us, not according to how goyim percieve us. Btw, dressing goyish and pritzusdig causes Hashem’s anger and He withholds his protection from goyim’s hatred. I see a correlation between the recent upscale in anti-Semitic incidents in the US and the way frum women AND men dress, trying to blend in with the goyim by hiding their Jewishness. If we don’t shape up it will spin out of control. The Holocaust started in Germany because so many sought to “show the goyim” that they are proper German citizens and it blew up in their faces. We don’t have to “show” anyone anything. We need to live as Jews and be tzniusdig with our dress and actions.
Llw,
I’m sorry but I totally disagree
That’s like saying that it doesn’t matter if you eat treif as long as your a good person people shouldn’t judge you
“REPLY
TryingToStayCalmParticipant
Here’s how you do it, you buy something modest, put it on, and wear it all day. You only have to put it on once. What is a teenage girl even asked to do besides sleep till noon while the boys are braving the cold to get to shacharis, then learning all day. This is your primary task … wearing something that could be a little more modest, a little less tight etc. We are talking about extremely immodest women with skirts above the knees, tall heels, form fitting shirts, patterned stockings etc.” yes if you’re not a girl let alone a teenager you won’t ever understand why it’s so difficult. If all around you the skirt is above the knee and all around you is tight form fitting clothing and you tell us to dress different for the sake of hashem that’s great
But what nerv do you have to say that it’s not at all difficult please. If it was so easy then we wouldn’t need these YWN posts about tznius. if it’s so easy why are there very frum girls who are very not tznius.if it’s so easy why are there very frum girls who are very not tznius.
The same reason there are so many very frum girls who eat treif, are mechallel Shabbos, etc.
““Shopping613 🌠Participant
looking Promiscuous is assur.
It’s a violation of the entire root of tzanua.”“What makes you say that
Do you even understand our challenge?”1. I am female, thank you very much. I definitely do understand the challenge.
2. I’m not sure where you live but in Israel that in the most accepted definition of tzniyus. We say in hebrew Mechubad, this goes back to the first time the word Tzanua is mentioned in the Tanach and that is how it’s defined. Mechubad can loosely be translated as respectful, appropriate, honored, and in the context is talking about how we are a level of these tings higher than non-jews, and there stems the idea of us dressing like a bas melech.The definitions I see online of promiscuous range from words I would not dare use on this site to: Someone who has many romantic partners. However, the word can also be used in a general sense to mean “not limited, restrained, or restricted.” or indulging in casual romantic relationships.
Do ANY of those things some REMOTELY tzanua?!
I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not just a bein adam limakom mitzvah, it’s bein adam lechavero.
Sorry,
It’s actually worse
It’s like feeding people treif
““Shopping613 🌠Participant
looking Promiscuous is assur.
It’s a violation of the entire root of tzanua.”“What makes you say that
Do you even understand our challenge?”1. I am female, thank you very much. I definitely do understand the challenge.
2. I’m not sure where you live but in Israel that in the most accepted definition of tzniyus. We say in hebrew Mechubad, this goes back to the first time the word Tzanua is mentioned in the Tanach and that is how it’s defined. Mechubad can loosely be translated as respectful, appropriate, honored, and in the context is talking about how we are a level of these tings higher than non-jews, and there stems the idea of us dressing like a bas melech.The definitions I see online of promiscuous range from words I would not dare use on this site to: Someone who has many romantic partners. However, the word can also be used in a general sense to mean “not limited, restrained, or restricted.” or indulging in casual romantic relationships.
Do ANY of those things some REMOTELY tzanua?!
I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not just a bein adam limakom mitzvah, it’s bein adam lechavero.
Shopping613
“I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not just a bein adam limakom mitzvah, it’s bein adam lechavero”
What is bein adam lechavro about not being tznius
Also you say you understand our challenge then why is so much bashing instead of chizukShe didn’t bash you.
What is bein adam lechavro about not being tznius
1) Every bein adam lamakom has an element of bein adam lachaveiro in it, because klal Yisroel is one, and we are all affected by anyone sinning. Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lazeh.
2) Any aveirah done publicly has an even stronger element of bein adam lachaveiro, because it bothers people who are yarei shomayim, and has a negative influence on people.
3) Tznius in particular can be machshil men as well.
I have a good solution YankleCohen4: Don’t tell Lashon Hara about an entire community (Seems to also be Motzi Shem Ra because you have no right to include all 5 towns in this). Even if it is 100% true, the correct halachic and Torahdik response would be to speak to a posek. This is definitely the wrong approach and you should be fixing your bein adam lachaveiro of telling lashon hara about thousands of people before you worry about issues that come from going out to lunch every day.
Modesty, the reason that dressing modest is so hard for some women is because this yetzer hora has grown out of control in some women. Tznius becomes second nature after a bit of taiming the yetzer hora.
If a Jew has been eating treif it’s much harder for them to stop eating it than someone who has never eaten trief. But after a while of not eating trief one doesn’t have to keep themselves back from eating treif- it becomes second nature.
It’s a real shame that in some frum communities the basic mitzva of tznius has become such a big effort to keep because they have become lax in them. I think that the trying to make baalie teshuvas out of non-frum Yidden should take backstage to making sure we frum Yidden are strong in keeping basic halacha.
Life, Judaism, and Mitzvot aren’t always easy.
There’s a problem when someone simply states a halacha or an idea and it’s considered bashing.
I know it’s not easy, and if you want maybe we can open a thread on chizuk in this area. I do know that the more I learned about WHY I am doing this and WHERE tzniyut really comes from, it made it easier. Clarity always helps give MORE chizuk.I don’t simply “understand”. I’m a young single woman who is just like you, who has a yetzer hara, wants to be pretty, but also wants to do ratzon hashem.
Thank you for your opinion “philosopher” but don’t make cheshbonos that no man can confirm. You must be out of your mind to state on a public forum that Kiruv among non-forum yidden should take backstage! You don’t know what gives hakadosh baruch hu what nachas ruach, not that I know either, and I definitely don’t have the gall to make it seem like I do! Before calling yourself philosopher- read anything the Ramchal, Kuzari, etc, wrote and you will see that you’re clearly coming from the wrong standpoint on the purpose of yahadus is.
Yisro:
Is it lashon hara to say Vegas isn’t a tzniusdik vacation spot? How many times do we have to repeat that saying you’ll see pritzus in a certain area is not lashon hara by anyone’s definition… other than non-tznius snowflakes who apparently take personal offense to everything on account of their sub-conscious guilt.Coffee addict: I think you asked me something a while back about the 5T’s image on the internet and said I didn’t get back to you. I didn’t really understand the question, but I think the proof is in the pudding right here on this thread for my original point. You don’t see this kind of passionate defense of any other problematic community. I think, unfortunately, many frum people took the gamble of moving there and aren’t yet willing to admit the mistake. You have a usual suspects like ZD, and Gadol who will always chime in to defend anyone violating the halachah under any circumstances as long as they aren’t from Lakewood, but the Five Towns gets defenders from beyond that usual white noise.
Everyone just sto posting on this!
Everyone knows it’s not trueVegas is different because goyim live there. The Chofetz Chaim says that one should even try not to tell lashon hara about non-jews but it is muttar, especially l’toeles. There is no Toeles here and 90% of the 5 towns contains Yidden. I am not denying that there is an issue- I am a male from one of the towns where this issue does not exist (Lawrence), nonetheless I still find it disgusting for someone to go on an online site and bash their brothers and sisters in an ehrlich community (by clouding all 5 towns under the same umbrella) and even in the communities where this problem is rampant-it is unacceptable and ASSUR. IF THERE IS NO PURPOSE AND IT DOES NOT FILL ALL 8 REQUIREMENTS FOR L’TOELES- THEN IT SHOULD BE SAID. NO DISCUSSION. PERIOD.
You don’t know how much Torah is learned and lived in the five towns. There are so many talmidei chachamim and people who are moser nefesh who live in the five towns…. Comparing a place full of kedusha and people killing themselves to serve HKBH to Vegas????! Just because you hear bad things about a place doesn’t make it treif. Everyone has their Nisyonos in life and if you saw what goes on inside everyones private lives- you would be shocked.
Just to clarify-I’m not disregarding the problem. It’s just that this is not the way the issue should be handled and no good will come from publicizing the issue in this manner.
We have to make some kind of bais din….. I’m scared to let my kids out if the house who knows what they will see… this is a real problem in the 5ts
Yisro, I’m not violating halacha by saying more money and kochos should be put into making sure frum people know and keep basic halacha than all money and effort going into trying to make baalie teshuvas. This is my opinion. I couldn’t care less if you think I’m out of my mind and I won’t change my mind just because you say so. I’m not saying a Baal Teshuva cannot be on a higher spiritual level than a FFB, or more chushav in Hashem’s eyes. Don’t fardrey what I’m saying. What I do see is a constant lowering of standards in music, dress, action to gefel and look cool and normal to those people many are trying to attract to Yiddishkeit whether they are not frum Jews or OTDs. And I firmly believe that before people start trying to make Baal teshuvas they need to keep basic halachas. Besides the secular world, especially in the US, is getting more and more dangerous. Soon you will not know if you are dealing with a man or woman. I think people like you are very naive. First a Jewish home has to be kodosh. That is the number one priority.
It seems to me that you are in a very serious perdicament. I would suggest that you walk around blindfolded but this will not suffice due to the accidental peak that would send you into a world of trouble. To me your only option is to gouge out your eyes to protect yourself from ever seeing something so horrific. You seem like a God fearing person so this is a small price to pay for such a great reward.
I agree with you 100% but posting your issue on the coffee room is not helping anyone and will not resolve the problem. Awareness should be increase and Rabonim should be notified and encouraged to speak about it, but public defamation for no purpose is simply wrong.
“Shopping613 🌠Participant
Life, Judaism, and Mitzvot aren’t always easy.
There’s a problem when someone simply states a halacha or an idea and it’s considered bashing.
I know it’s not easy, and if you want maybe we can open a thread on chizuk in this area”
Yes we definitely need a chizuk thread as all these posts are only bashing
And it should be a young single girls only“There’s a problem when someone simply states a halacha or an idea and it’s considered bashing.”
comes from the influence of the liberal Jews and their tolerance and moral relativity but tolerance only for deviance not for conservative living. Just try to protest abortion of babies.
“If it was so easy then we wouldn’t need these YWN posts about tznius. ”
It’s not difficult physically. You can find modest clothing. It’s not hard to get dressed. What’s harder is to fight the yetzer hara. And women have a yetzer hara for being immodest and for following the prevailing culture. When you see an immodest woman, you are seeing a person who is run by her yetzer hara.
Wow, just wow!!!
Firstly, you are being motzei Shem rah on an entire amazing community and I take offense to that.
Secondly I happen to be a member of this amazing chessedik and Frum community for the past 24 years. You should be grateful to have the opportunity to have a job here and show some hakaros hatov. Maybe you should take a job in the city and see what true pritsuz looks like. Go work in the city and see what challenges will present themselves to you.
You make excuses for yourself that you don’t have the time to make yourself lunch. Seriously? If this truly was an issue for you, you would make sure that you made your lunch the night before. If you were such a tzaddik that this was truly an issue for you, you would make sure that you not only had a homemade lunch but a Sefer to go along with it.
Shame on you!!! You choose to be mevayesh women in MY community when there is absolutely no issue right now in the cold months of the winter and you are only looking to run off at your mouth and stir up controversy on our amazing neighborhood. As such I don’t believe that you even spend time in our neighborhood at all. You are just a gossip looking to stir up trouble. Unfortunately there are good people in this world who are always looking for the best in others and then there are people like you. You owe us an apology big time.
We call it a troll…..
Wow, aries!! Welcome back! It’s been nearly six long years since we’ve last seen you… Glad to hear you back here!
Firstly, you are being motzei Shem rah on an entire amazing community and I take offense to that.
Not exactly. He didn’t say everyone is a prutza.
Please try not to be motzei Shem rah on him.Maybe you should take a job in the city and see what true pritsuz looks like.
What does that mean? Since In the city women walk around in bathing suits, so a women in a short tight skirt is not pritzus ??
Really?You choose to be mevayesh women in MY community when there is absolutely no issue right now in the cold months of the winter
Absolutely no problem?
That’s beyond amazing. I don’t know your community. But I have been to many Jewish communities.
There are always some issues. In every community.As I posted on a different thread.
One who covers up for people who do עבירות is transgressing ולא תחניפו את הארץI second joe’s welcome back!
It’s an honor to live in close vicinity to the famed Aries
Maybe we can meet at gourmet glatt and I can get your autograph ….. 🤔
Welcome back, Aries.
The OP was declared a troll many times. He even started a thread complaining about this one, so you actually agree with him.
Interesting how some people are so quick to defend anyone’s right to live as they feel but disappear when questioned as to the validity of their position
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