Uganda

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  • #603630
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To get off the Asifa….

    If a “Jewish” State in Uganda would have prevented the Holocaust, would it have been worth it?

    #877637
    Chulent
    Member

    In theory, sure. Pikuach Nefesh doicha…

    And it doesn’t have the issurim of the three shavuos. (Yes, the three oaths are binding, and I’m not going to enter a fruitless debate about them.)

    But then again, how “Jewish” is Jewish?

    But the fact the zionists first consideration was Uganda as the “Jewish” homeland, demonstrates the zionists complete lack of allegiance to, and despisal of, Torah and Judaism.

    #877639
    147
    Participant

    I am old enough to remember the days of “Dada”, so we absolutely would not have wished to be in Uganda.

    For the younger generation of this coffee room, “Dada” I am talking about Idi Amin.

    #877640
    akuperma
    Participant

    A Jewish “homeland” outside of Israel would have either attracted very few Jews, or would have been more like a large concentration camp (an idea suggested by some Nazis uneasy about genocide). Of course, Brooklyn is close to a Jewish homeland in golus, and had millions of Jews moved to any place in golus, it would be as much a homeland as Brooklyn is. As it was, many Jews did move to places in the British Empire when fleeing Europe, and more would have except the British “closed the door” with full knowledge of the holocaust (since we have the Ultra intercepts which prove the Allied intelligence knew about the holocaust in detail for the entire war).

    #877641
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Chulent, learn some history. The 6th Zionist congress in 1903 voted in favour of a commission to investigate the Uganda idea, and Herzl himself clearly stated at that congress that even were it to come to fruition, it was meant as a temporary measure to save lives from vicious Russian antisemitism. It was never a first inclination. ( you may have heard of the Kishinev pogrom in 1903 and the Kiev pogrom in 1905, but, then again, you may not care, because one can’t let facts get in the way of one’s world view, right?) and according to Herzl a Jewish state in Israel was the ultimate goal. The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later. the Jewish Agency and Emory university, among many others, have the primary source documents to back this up. I am sure that you have adequate sources for your slander.

    The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.

    Gavra, it was never intended as an either or, and it never got past the investigatory stage. Even if it had, its sole purpose was to rescue Jews 35 years before the Holocaust.

    #877643

    Uganda seems a pretty tough place to live. Lots of diseases (tropical hemorrhagic fevers the likes of Ebola), very hot…

    I think a Jewish state somewhere else would be a great idea. For example, a part of Australia. Let Australia give up even half of one empty state somewhere on their northern coast, for example. Those already living there could stay (with dual citizenship). We could get an area twice as big as Israel, easily, or even more. All nations of the world would be willing to contribute money for it – even Iran, I think.

    Finally we could have a place where we can live in peace – *with* a strong military as well, of course, but with no enemies right next to us. A truly almost empty country with a negligible native population (who would be treated with utter respect for their discomfort).

    THe only question is what type of government we would want.

    And it is questionable whether we are at all allowed to have any type of autonomy, even outside of E”Y. However I don’t think anyone would object because of that, seriously.

    Anyway, I’ll keep on dreaming…

    #877644
    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“Chulent, learn some history. The 6th Zionist congress in 1903 voted in favour of a commission to investigate the Uganda idea, and Herzl himself clearly stated at that congress that even were it to come to fruition, it was meant as a temporary measure to save lives from vicious Russian antisemitism. It was never a first inclination. ( you may have heard of the Kishinev pogrom in 1903 and the Kiev pogrom in 1905, but, then again, you may not care, because one can’t let facts get in the way of one’s world view, right?) and according to Herzl a Jewish state in Israel was the ultimate goal. The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later. the Jewish Agency and Emory university, among many others, have the primary source documents to back this up. I am sure that you have adequate sources for your slander.

    The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.”

    Actually Chulent is right, except that he states -“first consideration”.

    You post right out of a Zionist Propaganda Book. It’s very hard to know the history of what hapenned because most of the historians are Zionists. It is probably true that Teddy sought it as a temporary means, but your line about abadonment by ALL two years later is false. And this part of Chulent’s post is accurate – “demonstrates the zionists complete lack of allegiance to, and despisal of, Torah and Judaism.”

    Some Zionists created an org. to create a State anywhere, so this proves Chulent’s statement. The following is from the Jewish virtual library:

    While Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a split in the Zionist movement.

    The Uganda Program was finally rejected by the Zionist movement at the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905, but Nahum Syrkin and Israel Zangwill called an alternative conference to continue the plan of the Uganda scheme.

    After the rejection of the Uganda scheme on the grounds of impracticability by the British, Zangwill turned his attention to settlement in Canada and Australia. But opposition from local residents led him to abandon the scheme. Expeditions were sent to Mesopotamia (Iraq), Cyrenaica (Libya) and Angola but little came of these expeditions.

    A project that had some concrete success was the Galveston scheme which contemplated the settlement of Jews in the American Southwest, in particular in Texas.

    The project received the assistance of Jacob Schiff, the American Jewish banker, and some 9,300 Jews arrived in that area between 1907-1914, through the Emigration Bureau of the Territorialist organization.

    #877645
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If anyone here has read “The Yiddish Policeman’s Union”, I imagine that Uganda would have been similar.

    #877646
    midwesterner
    Participant

    “A truly almost empty country with a negligible native population”

    In the 18th and 19th centuries, when Jews began returning in larger numbers, That designation fit perfectly to Palestine. Didn’t stop the negligible native population from making a pretty big stink!!

    #877647
    yichusdik
    Participant

    gavra, a very astute comparison, but I guess we’ll never know. I think that part of the feel of desolation in the book was that so many Jews had “given up”. One could hope that it might have been otherwise in different circumstances. BTW it was a well written but very uncomfortable book to read.

    #877648
    yichusdik
    Participant

    Health, I’ve read the Jewish Virtual Library too. Absolutely nothing you quoted from there contradicts anything I wrote. And if you don’t trust the Jewish Agency (though they have original source documents, and I don’t imagine you expect a chareidi stenographer to have been taking notes at a Zionist congress in 1903) Then you might be interested in Emory University’s collection – not just what they have online, but what they have in their library. They don’t have a Zionist agenda. The ITO grew far apart from the Zionist movement between 1905 and 1917, not the least because of the realities of the turbulence and the world war that emerged.

    #877649
    bygirl93
    Member

    It just would have been easier to kill us- having us all in one place!

    #877650
    Health
    Participant

    yichusdik -“Health, I’ve read the Jewish Virtual Library too. Absolutely nothing you quoted from there contradicts anything I wrote.”

    I guess you have a very short memory -let me refresh it & quote your post:

    “The proposal almost split the movement entirely, and it was abandoned for good at the next Zionist congress less than 2 years later.”

    It was not abandoned for good. Many Zionists liked the idea and started an org. to implement it.

    “The willingness of the Zionists to consider Uganda demonstrates nothing about their perception of Torah and Judaism. It speaks clearly, though, about their desire to save Jewish lives.”

    Nonsense, as you see they wanted Uganda and then a few other different places. Stop trying to rewrite history to favor Zionists & Zionism!

    #877651
    147
    Participant

    I studied with Idi Amin in Wiltshire College in 1963, and personally knew him, when we were taking some courses together there at the same time. Naturally, after he made a coup & took over Uganda by force, I severed my links with him, telling him, that one can only come to power by “Ballots” & not by “Bullets”.

    In light of my personal contacts with Idi Amin Dada, the Zionist made an excellent decision to create the Jewish Homeland in Eretz Yisroel, and not in Uganda.

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