Walk the girl to the door

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  • #736248
    oomis
    Participant

    Bochur, you are right that SOME things are generational. Good manners however, are not one of those things. Derech Eretz kadma l’Torah, don’t forget. Those girls who say they don’t care, have most likely been brought up without certain social niceties and courtesies. They are likely to be the types of girls who think there is nothing wrong with yapping on their cell phones in a restaurant, or that it’s fine to allow their toddlers to run amok in public places, while they sit and chat with friends.

    You’re right, I am in my 50s, but that has nothing to do with the expectation that a boy should treat a girl with thoughtfulness on their date. My Rov ZT”L was a European Rov. I never saw him fail to open the door for his Rebbetzin when I was in their presence. If you think good manners ever go out of fashion, then you should think twice. And so should the girl, because they are losing out by lowering their expectations for their dates ( and potentially future husbands)to treat them with courtesy. Women have gotten used to men being crass and thoughtless, and some girls are just immature and clueless today and think the BOYS will not like them if they expect the boys to be more thoughtful.

    I HAVE spoken to many young women about this; to the daughters of my friends, to shul members, etc., and the VAST and overwhelming majority of them think that a guy who doesn’t walk them to their door is a jerk. To be fair to you, not all of them agree on the car door issue, but most felt he should at least open the door when they are getting into the car, but not necessarily when they are getting out. I say go for both. It makes you look good, especially if you do it sufficiently quickly and without fanfare, so the girl does not have that awkward “what should I do” moment. And if their MOTHERS know you are courteous, it scores really big points. JMABO (just my ancient bones’ opinion).

    #736249
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    That seems more like they don’t care than they davka prefer it not to happen and while there seem to be a significant amount who don’t like getting walked to the door, there doesn’t seem to be for getting the door opened. Opening the door is also much more common and accepted.

    #736250
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    oomis – i don’t think we are disagreeing that both the guy and girl should be nice and courteous. we are disagreeing as to what qualifies as nice and courteous. Why should a girl not be able to say that she DOESN’T appreciate the walk? To classify any one of those girls as “probably such and such a type” is very unfair and judgmental. That is gaavah! What about people (far and middle eastern) who’s custom it is to belch as a compliment to the chef. Yeah, I think it’s gross, but if the guy is otherwise a nice guy, why would you use one (obviously, from this thread) debatable thing to castigate him so fast.

    And please don’t bring raayos of courtesy from married people. Married people have to treat each other differently than dating people are allowed to in many instances (not saying that this one is, but it seems some people feel that way). And even if you are right (and I don’t think you are) that walking to the door is common courtesy, at the very least this board has proven that there may be sufficient doubt in the guy’s mind as to what the girl will consider appropriate or appreciated. Considering that, to use this “lack of courtesy” as a basis for labeling the guy a jerk is bigoted and unfair.

    Has your husband ever done anything that was discourteous? What was your reaction to it? Why can’t you have a similar reaction to a date? Why just jump to conclusions. Maybe talk about it. I know I have spoken to girls about things they did that I was concerned about (Tznius, for example. I was told by my very frum rosh yeshiva that although tznius is extremely important, you must investigate and see why she isn’t up to the standards you expect. Of course within reason so, no, miniskirts and tank-tops are not OK).

    And finally, please address my curious question (This is my third invocation, and your ignoring it means that you either don’t have a good answer or you are ignoring me which is discourteous 😉 ): What are the top 5 things that you think are important to look for in a guy you are dating? And, once again, be specific please. None of “He should be a mentsch” since that is too broad. If you want to make it 10 things so you have more to work with, that’s fine.

    #736251
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    Opening the door is also much more common and accepted.

    I thought they went hand in hand. Whatever. It seems like we came to the conclusion that for you it’s safer to stay in the car because of some girls that might not like being walked and for me to continue to add points for guys who walk me.

    #736252
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    “whatever”

    That’s not the point-the point is that I have yet to hear of a girl who prefers NOT to have the car door opened. Most don’t care either way.

    @oomis-

    You seem to be an expert on manners, which is funny because the way I was raised was that the worst thing that you can do to someone is ignore them. Worse than insulting them, because at least you acknowledge them. But than again I’m no gadol in manners like you are.

    You don’t think it’s rude to insult the character of a girl who isn’t as exacting and finicky as you are. I would think that she just has different preferences.or at worse is a mevater. But than again I’m no gadol in manners like you are.

    #736253
    iyhbyu
    Member

    And I never came to that conclusion-why would you give them points? Do you think that they might be mind readers? Hey it could be, I don’t know.

    I think you are well entitled to appreciate it… however why “give points?”

    #736254
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    That’s not the point-the point is that I have yet to hear of a girl who prefers NOT to have the car door opened. Most don’t care either way.

    I don’t think the Mods will let me post links but look around. There are girls who don’t prefer it.

    #736255

    iyhbyu: Why not give points to a person who can sensed what you prefer?

    #736256
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    tbt – because dating shouldn’t be about points. it should be about building a relationship. Yes, sometimes someone does too many repulsive things so you can justify saying “I would rather not be in a relationship with the person”, but at the end of the day, most people don’t fall into such a category.

    #736257
    #736258
    iyhbyu
    Member

    Just because you found two girls who have a blog doesn’t mean that they constitute a substantial minority. anyways good for them.

    #736259
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Any girl who does not prefer to be treated in the customary chivalrous way; ie. open doors, walked to house, etc, it is because they have been stained by the curse of feminism.

    Guys:stay away from them.

    #736260
    bpt
    Participant

    “after 34 years of marriage, my husband STILL opens the door for me. “

    I take great pride in treating my wife like the royalty she is, but Oomis, your husband takes the cake.

    #736261
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    Same as on this thread.

    #736262
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    tbt – I understand. I was making a point and used your comment as a springboard. 😉

    #736263
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    popa – or maybe, as some have said on this board, tznius. or a variety of other reasons. I hate blanket statements. k’mo shepartzufeihen einun shavos, kach dei’oseihen einun shavos.

    #736264
    eclipse
    Member

    popa…I have a student who’s a baalas teshuva and she expressed the same sentiment.To quote her,”With feminism,we shot ourselves in the foot”!

    #736265
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok Ok.

    I am just having fun at the expense of other posters who think that if you do want these things done, that there is something wrong with your frumkeit.

    I enjoy turning the argument on its head and pointing out faults which may be manifesting in their position.

    This is why I made the tznius argument in favor of walking to the door earlier in this thread.

    #736266
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    If you thought that maybe say that 50 posts ago. = We’ve already given reasons why girls don’t want to be walked to the door(I’m not going to rehash this whole thread) . I’ve yet to see a reason for not having the door opened other than it’s unnecessary which isn’t a reason not to open the door rather it’s a reason not to care.

    The fallacy with your logic is that when the sample size is lets say 15 girls, and 7 of them prefer not be walked to the door. than that is a substantial minority (like this coffee room). When the sample size is everyone that I’ve ever spoken to and I’ve heard girls talk about preferring not to be walked to the door, but none who really cared about opening the door, than two girls who wrote a blog isn’t a good sample size.

    You obviously still think that walking a girl to the door is the right thing to do. I’m fine with that- but you need to explain yourself as to why. Do you think that there is no substantial minority which prefers not getting walked to the door? Do you think that your opinion is the only one that matters? Do you think that men should have a supernatural ability to “sense” what you appreciate on a first date, as it seems tbt thinks?what is it?

    #736267
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    popa – Sorry for not realizing. I have a hard time keeping up with posters’ opinions especially on this thread 😉 As I said, blanket statements are hard for me to ignore.

    #736268
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    Chivalrous-gracious and honorable toward an enemy,(women) esp. a defeated one, and toward the weak or poor.

    I joke I joke, I kid Ikid

    #736269
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    You obviously still think that walking a girl to the door is the right thing to do. I’m fine with that- but you need to explain yourself as to why. Do you think that there is no substantial minority which prefers not getting walked to the door? Do you think that your opinion is the only one that matters? Do you think that men should have a supernatural ability to “sense” what you appreciate on a first date, as it seems tbt thinks?what is it?

    I explained several times why I think it’s the right thing to do. You say that you’ve heard that lots of girls don’t like it. In all honesty, amongst my friends, we appreciate it. I have yet to meet someone who doesn’t. Sure we joke how we can open the car door ourselves and make it back to our house alone but agree that it’s chivalrous when the guys does those things and it makes us feel protected and cared about. I believe you when you say you know some girls don’t like it (we see it on this thread too).

    If I thought my opinion was the only one that mattered I would state my point and that’s it. My eyes were opened up on this board in realizing that some girls don’t like it. I don’t think either of us can say it’s a minority or majority based upon the small pool of girls we’re dealing with.

    I doubt most men can sense what a girl prefers but it would be nice for them to obtain that trait somehow 🙂

    #736270
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    That’s why you prefer it, and that is fine, but why is it the “right” thing to do?

    I agree with you that the sample size is too small to tell whether it is a clear majority or minority, but I think we can tell that there is a substantial size of each one.

    And I also agree it would be nice if we could obtain that trait somehow. it would sure solve a lot of problems.

    #736271
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    I don’t think you can argue that it’s chivalrous and on a date they guy should act as chivalrous as possible. That doesn’t give the girl a free ride to act however she wants – she should be polite, etc.

    #736272
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    Dunno

    Really?

    I’m dating a Girl right now and

    doing everything I can to be as

    “chivalrous” (seems to be the new

    word around here) as possible

    and I’m not getting much in return

    It goes both ways

    A healthy relationship is a

    give-and-take

    #736273
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    I can and I will; If a girl doesn’t like something I don’t think it should be done no matter how chivalrous it is. I think it’s more important for a guy to act like a mensch than for him to be chivalrous.

    #736274
    dunno
    Member

    1dayatatime

    A relationship is most definitely a give and take, just in different ways. What are you expecting to get in return? I don’t think a girl should be opening the door for a guy but she must be thankful and courteous when he does for her

    #736275
    oomis
    Participant

    If you are getting “not much” in return (whatever THAT might be that you are expecting to get), then perhaps the young lady is also ill-mannered.

    I think too many of the guys are hung up on the word “chivalry.” They are thinking of knights of old, when what they should really be thinking of, is dates gone cold. Good manners are never out of style, whatever the situation. If you feel you must continuously argue the point or justify your insensitivity, then you need to take a long, hard look at how you behave on a date, and see if maybe it is preventing you from moving forward in a relationship that has meaning.

    #736276
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    Obviously it’s important to act like a mensch. I think acting like a mensch includes chivalrous things like walking the girl to the door. You disagree. Fine. But this conversation is going around in circles.

    #736278
    iyhbyu
    Member

    dunno-

    You’re right I will try to spell it out.

    Facts: 1. Some girls don’t want to be walked to the door

    2. Some girls do want to be walked to the door

    You think that the girls in #2 are “right” and that they are the only ones who should be considered and treated as they prefer.

    Why?

    #736279
    NotABochurAnymore
    Participant

    oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?

    #736280
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    As I explained many times, I think it’s chivalrous. You don’t. That’s FINE! Most girls won’t fault you for staying in the car so if that’s what you feel comfortable doing, by all means continue to do that.

    #736281
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    Oomis

    THAT means that I would like to

    to get back the-all that I’m

    giving

    I think I deserve that much

    And no, it does not have to mean

    that she’s ill mannered. It

    could be that she’s has some fears

    (number one in dating is fear

    of rejection) which may lead her

    to behave the way she is

    Also, if she’s not so interested

    in me, and she’s acting the way

    she is, then that could be

    ill mannered, because if I’m

    giving all I’ve got then I’m

    allowed to expect THAT in return

    Or maybe she’s just playing it

    cool, because she thinks I’m

    not so interested

    So I guess we shall see

    #736282
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    Dunno

    Yes, I would love if a girl

    opened the door for me

    Also, maybe she can pick me up,

    in HER car, and possibly pay for

    some dates

    They can be a bit expensive ya

    know

    Shmooze

    #736283
    oomis
    Participant

    Good luck to you, 1day. A girl who is so insecure and fearful of rejection that she does not know how to say please and thank you, tell her date that she had a good time, hold up her end of a conversation, (if in a more than a three date situation) cannot think of something nice to do for her date, just might be too young to be dating.

    “oomis – you just can’t answer my questions, right?” (Bochur 24)

    What was the question?

    #736284
    oomis
    Participant

    1dayatime, I meant to ask you, is there a reason why your posts cannot be typed in a typical manner, i.e., longer lines in each sentence? I keep thinking you are posting poetry…

    Also, exactly what is it that you are expecting that you are not getting? Could you be clear about that?

    #736285
    dunno
    Member

    1dayatatime

    Good luck! I hope you have clarity making your decision!

    #736286
    oomis
    Participant

    I think the single onstacle to shidduchim is people who do not really SPEAK to each other, or hear what they are saying. Communication is a fundamental element of any successful relationship, social, business, family, educational,etc. If you have expectations and are not communicating them, how is the other person supposed to automatically read your mind (with the exception of showing basic good manners, whcih everybody should have been taught as a child)?

    #736287
    dbwcbb
    Member

    As I’ve written before, I’m no so comfortable with being walked to the door. However, when I do get walked to the door, I don’t hold it against him or anything like that. I understand that most guys are just doing what they were told to do in terms of etiquette like this- walk, don’t walk, open, don’t open…. I get that on a date you should be observant of each other and stuff, but c’mon! the poor guy’s just trying to comply with what he was told is society’s standards. I think that any girl who is taking such a strong stand cuz he did/didn’t do something small like that needs to understand that there are more important things…at least I would like to think there are!!!!

    #736288
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    Forget about what I will personally do for just a second and please answer the question.

    I thought I made it as clear as humanly possible.

    Facts: 1. Some girls don’t want to be walked to the door

    2. Some girls do want to be walked to the door

    So you think it’s chivalrous. Are you saying you think that chivalry is more important than the feelings of those girls in group #1?

    #736290
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    No.

    #736291
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @oomis-

    I don’t know if you care, but I would rather appreciate it if you would either take back you’re strong words about boys who don’t walk the girl to the door. Or, if you still do feel that way, would you please explain why you feel that way despite the obvious amount of girls who prefer that it not be done?

    #736292
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    oomis

    Good Question- Because when I post from my Blackberry, the sreen only allows me a certain amount of room to see what I’m posting, more than that I would not see what I’m writing, so when I hit enter it goes to the next line where i can see what I’m writing.

    I’m a poet

    And I didn’t even know it

    “Also, exactly what is it that you are expecting that you are not getting? Could you be clear about that? “

    Perhaps a bit of warmth, or that I should feel that she’s interested

    Either way, it’s all good, the RBS”O has a plan for me and I need to just keep on davening that HE should point me in the right direction.

    I wasn’t really asking for advice, I was simply pointing out, based on previous posts on this thread, that it’s not all black and white and each situation needs to be discussed with a mentor, situation by situation

    We’ve created a script about what needs to be done in our lives and how we think we should behave, shidduchim, yeshivas, that we forget that we are all individuals, with individual characteristics, personality, ideas, goals, hashkafahs, etc. that we must remember that about ourselves and each other, we are not objects. We should do the right thing, follow the Torah and seek and have for ourselves a Rebbi, mentor that can guide us.

    Ad bias goel tzedek….amen

    shmooze

    #736293
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    oomis- 1 more thing

    “A girl who is so insecure and fearful of rejection that she does not know how to say please and thank you, tell her date that she had a good time, hold up her end of a conversation, (if in a more than a three date situation) cannot think of something nice to do for her date, just might be too young to be dating.”

    I have to strongly disagree, girls in their mid twenties can also have these fears and people of all ages in many different situations can also have fears of rejection.

    e.g. A businessman needs to call a company to make a sale but he fears that they might reject him.

    There are so many situation like these that people face every day, and they may not even realize it.

    People can live their entire lives without realizing some of the issues they have, that they could’ve over come with the right kind of help

    This is a different discussion and a whole different topic which I’m not getting into right now

    #736294
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @dunno-

    Well that is what you are saying when you say that it is the “right” thing to do to walk to the door. You are saying forget those girls in group 1, only do what girls in group #2 like. And it’s okay to not care about those girls because it’s “chivalrous.”

    #736295
    1dayatatime
    Participant

    dunno

    If I went out with you, would you walk me to the door?:)

    #736296

    iyhbyu: May I mix in over here?

    I think your being a little factitious over here. dunno stated explicitly that this is what she prefers . She said she understands the other side. But, this is how she feels.

    #736297
    dunno
    Member

    iyhbyu

    No not really. I feel like you are ignoring the 2nd group completely though. I don’t fault you for that. You feel what you are doing is right. It’s nice to see you care and are not just doing it out of laziness.

    1dayatatime

    You wish! But next time I date a law student who doesn’t walk me to the door I’m going to be pretty convinced that it’s iyhbyu 🙂

    #736298
    dunno
    Member

    truth be told

    Thanks for the backup 🙂

    #736299
    iyhbyu
    Member

    @tbt

    Sure

    As for your first point of Dunno only saying what she prefers a post of dunno’s;

    “I explained several times why I think it’s the right thing to do.”

    As for your second point;some of my posts-

    “I guess you’re just saying that you appreciate it and that’s fair.”

    “I think you are well entitled to appreciate it”

    “That’s why you prefer it, and that is fine”

    I don’t know where you see that I’m not saying it’s okay for her to have emotions. I don’t know where you see that I’m attacking anyone’s emotions or feelings C”V.

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