- This topic has 63 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
During the time of the Megillah reading, I think it is important to realize that we were all Sephardic once and that what separates is actually modern labeling.
This is particularly pertinent in the shidduch world, when shidduch organizations and other shadchanim refuse to deal with Sephardim due to a different mentality. I am sure no one would have told Esther Hamalkah she had a different mentality.
As a lack of unity reigns in Israel, I think we have to think about the lack of unity here in North America between different types of frum Jews. Is Hashem telling us that we have to respect all Jews?
The different minhagim go back at least to the separation between Bavel and Eretz Yisrael which goes back to Bayis Sheini. However the pot is constantly mixed as communities move around and intermarry. Note how the Arizel was a mixture, and his minhag is the basis for all hasidic nusachs, and mixes aspects from different mnhagim.
Linguistically, the temanim are probably the most authentic since they pronounce all the nekudas and dageshim, which no one else still does, but its clear Hebrew must have been pronounced that way since the mesoret includes the dageshim that everyone else ignores (e.g. a gimel or daled, with or without a dagesh).
Sephardim are originally from Spain. After the Inquisition, many of them fled to the Middle East. That’s why there are so many Sephardim from those countries. There were also some who went to Central America and South America – they are referred to as Ladino.
Why do you say we were all Sephardim once? There were plenty of Jews whose ancestors never lived in Spain.
I wasn’t sephardic. I was ashekenazic at har sinai.
Forget about minhagim, Ashkenazim and Sefardim are often very different culturally. That does make it more difficult, although certainly not impossible,to make shidduchim between the two groups (and even their many subcategories).
Of course we all need to respect each other, and that probably includes not accusing each other, by implication, of racism.
Not everyone who isn’t Ashkenazic is Sephardic.
Achashveirosh was king of Spain?
why is there such a strong push-back to the OP’s message of support for the sefaradim among us? Are those commenters who nitpick trying to be part of the problem or part of the solution? Even if you don’t think there is racism or bias against sefaradim, u can still be positive and be maskim with the message.
RF, the OP’s message does not come across as positive.
Why are you reluctant to redt a sephardi to your child?
CR10: Again, Sephardic means your ancestors lived in Spain, not Persia! Just say “We’re all Jewish!” and that should be enough!
Popa and DaMoshe are correct; the history of klal Yisroel in the times of the Megillah is irrelevant.
Look, I sympathize with you in your difficulties finding a shidduch for your daughter (I’m assuming). I think you’re being unfair to the shidduch organization(s), though. With limited resources, they’re going to focus on the demographics with which they will have the most success, and they obviously feel that they don’t have the resources to be successful with Sefardim.
There’s most definitely a perception that Ashkenazim have different cultural norms than Sefardim, although that will likely change over the next several generations.
As others have pointed out, you’re most likely to find success through a shadchan who knows your child and can suggest shidduchim based on his/her personality and level of frumkeit rather than a stereotype.
Hatzlocha, and may you soon post in the Mazel Tov! thread.
That’s an interesting topic for discussion: does an organization serving the public have a right to limit who it serves. I think the answer is yes, but but it must be based on fair criteria.
A bikur cholim organization will often allocate funds towards local residents much sooner than to other patients requiring aid. They may even have specific types of expenses which they cover, but won’t cover other necessary expenses – not because they aren’t needed, just because limited resources force them to limit their operations. There are some specialty tzeddakos which discriminate in this way. I know of several; some examples are: an organization which covers cleaning help when parents are incapacitated, one which provides linen for needy chasanim and kallahs, one which pays for the jewelry, one which helps with gowns, etc.
As long as the Sefardim and Ashkenazim are considered to have, at least to some extent, different shidduchim pools, it’s fair for one to limit its activities to one or the other.
OTgeneration of the tzeddakos I mentioned would do such a thing, that would be wrong. If a hachansas kallah fund would only give to needy Ashkenazic kallos, or a bikur cholim would only cover expenses for Sefardic patients, my sensitivities would be offended, because for those needs, cultural differences are not a fair criterion.
The reason it’s changing shidduchim-wise, is because the cultural differences are becoming smaller with each subsequent generation, and I don’t think the difference in minhagim is enough of a factor itself to keep the shidduchim pools seperate.
Persian Jews were never Sephardim. The Persian (Iranian) Jewish community is the oldest continuous Jewish community having been in existence in present day Eastern Iraq (the city of Susa is Shushan) and Iran since Churban Bayis Rishon.
Jews from that part of the World, Iraq, Iran, the Arabian peninsula are properly called Eastern (Mizrachi) Jews and have their own nusach and minhagim and many are very maqpid on shiduchim. Mashadi Jews (from the Iranian city of Meshad) are reputed to only be meshadach with other Meshadis.
What difference does it make if we were once all Sephardi or not? It’s very nice if true, but we aren’t living in the past and shidduchim are made based the reality we live in today. OP, it sounds like you and your child are in a difficult situation that is being exacerbated by unhelpful and discriminatory shadchanim. I don’t doubt that you are suffering. I empathize with you. But I don’t think a discussion of Klal Yisroel’s Sephardi roots is really relevant. You won’t get the shadchanim to change their minds that way, and if Ashkenazi/Sephardi shidduchim are rarely made due to cultural differences, those cultural differences aren’t going away just because it turns out they haven’t been around as long as we might have thought.
DaasYochid: Why would you assume the differences are lessened in each generation to the point that future generations would be able to intermarry with ease? The religious minhagim will still play a large role. Would an Ashkenazic wife want to assume very different minhagim? (Or vice versa.)
Chasidim and Litvaks have been living together for hundreds of years including in America and Israel mixed together for many many decades. Do you hear of Belzer Chasidim marrying Masores Bais Yaakov girls or Lakewood bochorim marrying Vizhnintzer girls?
Of course there are some such (and some Ashkenaz/Sephardic) marriages. But it has never become the norm.
CR10: Should Chasidish shadchanim in Boro Park also find shidduchim for Litvaks in Flatbush? Should Shadchanim that do shidduchim for Syrian Jews also consider Williamsburg Chasidim? Why are you only complaining about Lakewood shadchanim not focusing on Sephardic shidduchim?
Earth to commenters: the degree of *similarity* among Jews after centuries of dispersion is a miracle of history or, if you wish, evidence of hashgaha pratit. Yet most of the commenters find it better to emphasize dissimilarity and affirm, or create, non-intermarrying castes. Baruch Hashem, my society doesn’t buy into it.
DY: What do I have to do with this?
Natfush: Would your society or clan consider a shidduch with a Skvere Chosid? Would you have considered marrying a Klausenberger girl? Could you easily see your sister or daughter marrying a Teimani or someone from Bobov?
Fensterz, the groups you mentioned are not only different in minhagim, they’re culturally and hashkafically different as well.
Popa, I thought you said something smart. Disregard.
DaasYochid: And just as you said Litvaks and Chasidim are hashkafically and culturally different, so are Litvaks and Sefardim.
It would be more relavent to say that we are all American rather than that we were all in Persia, which is not necessarilly true, either.
There were Jews in Eretz Yisroel at that time who started building the Beis Hamikdash, and bringing the Tamid. There were Jews in many other countries that were under the empire of Achashveirosh.
But as Daas Yochid pointed out, we are all American and we are sharing more and more of the same culture as time goes on. There are in fact more Sfardi-Ashkenazi Shidduchim these days. Chasidim-Litvish Shiduchim are very common, when the Frum (or Chumra, if your feelings desire it) levels match.
You say that you don’t judge, but on the same time, you will refuse a YU boruch or a BT, not because you don’t love them but because your children want to uphold a higher level, meaning that the YU and BT have a lower level of yiddishkeit. Sorry, is it not judging? Btw, how do you measure the level? The Sepharadim are the Jews who flew away from Spain because of the decree of the king Fernando and queen Isabella. Before this time, they were not Sepharadim. If you ask Jews from Irak ,Iran or from ex ussr republics of south, they will clearly tell you that they are not Sepharadim.
I think the question should be “How many of us ashkenazim are really decendant from Khazzars?”
The Sephardim did/do a much better job of protecting their bloodline.
Whose minhagim prevail after an Ashkenaz/Sefardic marriage? Will the wife change her Hebrew pronunciation to that of her husband? Will the wife wear only a tichel and never a sheitel if her husband follows Rav Ovadia’a prohibition on wearing sheitels?
Fensterz, many Sefardim are hashkafically identical to many Ashkenazim. The OP has a son in BMG, and is looking in that direction for shidduchim. I don’t know why you bring up culture again when I already addressed it.
Not sure if Avraham Avinu ever set foot in Sepharad.
crisisoftheweek: The Khzar theory is an anti-semitic hoax.
Generally speaking, that is the minhag, that the wife takes on her husband’s practices and not vice versa. I am not Sephardi, but I grew up in a modern home (and school) and learned Sephardi/Modern Hebrew pronunciation. Since getting married, I have changed to traditional Ashkenazi pronunciation, although sometimes I still unwittingly slip back into the Sephardi pronunciation (it can be confusing!) I also have changed my minhag regarding sit/stand for Kiddush and other things. It is something that women need to consider while they are dating. For me, it was nothing too drastic, but cross-cultural shidduchim can lead to conflict if the woman is not prepared to change her minhag.
CoW,
Your comment reminds me of the story of a Rov and the local poritz. The poritz sent a picture of a pig to the rov to irritate the rov. The rov responded by sending back a picture of himself. He explained that the poritz sent a picture representative of himself, so I responded in kind.
It is enlightening that you say that you are a descendant of the Khazzars.
Buy the way, a “ches” is a soft sound, and if you were going to properly try to represent it as the “crisis” people such as you do, it should be transliterated with an “h” or even “ch”, not a “kh”. “kh” is for a chof.
Dear CR10, I’m a ger(convert) fir more than 15 years now, i can tell you that i was shomer negiah from day one. And so many of my friends guerim and BTs. What you are saying , it’s pure motzi shem ra. If i say that the sepharadim in Lakewood are full of gaavah and sinah against YU and BTs, what would you think about me? Baruch Hashem, i know better than that. There are Charedim ,Lakewood people who certainly don’t keep some mitzos, can i generalize about all Lakewood. Di you consider people who keep more chumros, to have a higher level of yiddishkeit than the one who don’t. Are you Hashem to judge? If you are a frum from birth You have no idea what does it mean to become a BT or a ger, so don’t come and judge until you stand in their shoes. You want to follow the charedi derech, it’s fine and i respect that. It’s not my derech but i respect it. But you judge people who are different than you. There’s a lot of gray in the Torah.
I think the question should be “How many of us ashkenazim are really decendant from Khazzars?”
The Sephardim did/do a much better job of protecting their bloodline.
You should say they did a better job of protecting their bloodline from false allegations (shall we call them blood-libels?).
I understand. It is normal to try to blame others for your troubles, and you are trying. The organization has a database of names and profiles that they feel they can match up. For something that is not in their range they do not have enough matches to deal with. That’s all. Getting along is one thing; marrying is another.
You do seem to agree that not necessarily are you talking about marrying an Ashkenazi. When we come to the point is the forseeable future where Sfard/Ashkenaz is meaningless they would handle both accordingly. Would you understand if they don’t handle out of town Shidduchim?
I agree with you about the need of openess. What i mean that every person is different. Some BT become fulfledge shomer mitzvot and Torah, very quick, and some others much longer. Of course, we have to match hashkafos, doesn’t mean to reject away a BT or YU, you could be very surprised. Bracha vhatzlacha.
CR10 – if you really want to get specific, we are all once Iraqi! Padam Aram is in Iraq!
But before that they were up on Arrarat, so we are all really Mountain Jews.
the shiduch world has always been clouded with “nonsense” so that we should remember that our hishtadlus is superfluous [vilna goen / bal hatanya].
Emunah and bitochon is the name of the game!!
cr10, sorry to inform, but the Forefathers, were not Sephardi, unless somehow, they were from Spain. and if you are truly Sephardi as you say, you are, then you will know, that there were Jews in Aleppo, who never set foot in Spain and lived there for hundreds of years. The jews from Spain who fled to Syria, actually for many years, the Halabi jews did not even intermarry with the newly arrived Spanish Jews for a good while. After the Inquistion, jews were dispersed everywhere, even to European countries. There are many Ashkenazim, who are actually from Spain, and hence are Sephardim, but gradually took on the customes of the communities, they settled in. So if you want to you that argument against the Shadachanim, then by all means, but please do not say the ForeFathers were Sephardi. And if the Ashkenazi Shadachnim won’t deal with you and you are from Lakewood and say there are many other Sephardi’s in Lakewood, why don’t you find out if there are Sephardi Shadchanim in Lakewood?? instead of beating up on the Askenazim there. Do you think the Sephardi Shadchanim in Brooklyn, make shiddichim for Askenazim?? Seriously, if you think there is a problem, then fix, it. Be Makom, sh’ein Ish, Hishtadal L’Hiyos Ish. meaning in a place that there isn’t a man, then strive to be one. Why don’t you get together with your other Sephardi friends, one afternoon, and sit down with lists of all the singles you know and start setting people up. If you are not getting anywhere, maybe it’s time to take matters in to your own hands??!! or better yet, find out Sephardi Shadchanim in Brooklyn. If you want Sephardi yeshivish, then look into other communities. There are so many young Sephardi couples moving to Lakewood, practically every week. If you want to help your child get married, find these newlyweds in shuls and ask who set THEM up? Obviously, somebody DID!! Get names and call and call.
Maybe the OP should say “Were we all middle eastern once?” considering the term “Sephardic” or “Sephard” refers to coming from Spain.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.