Westboro baptist church?

Home Forums Controversial Topics Westboro baptist church?

Viewing 50 posts - 201 through 250 (of 309 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1044675
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    OurTorah: While they did point out that you’re civil and impartial while engaging in debate and argument, it should be pointed out that here it’s different.

    We’re talking here about a hater of HaShem and His people, as was pointed out here time and again. There is no room for civility – an enemy of my HaShem, of my people, is my enemy too. One of the aspects of ???? ??? is feeling and showing contempt for ????? ???.

    #1044676
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shmuly Yanklowitz, Novominsker and OO theology

    I think Sam’s point there might apply here to those who are saying that we have to hate members of Neturei Karta.

    Granted, Popa had a good response over there:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shmuly-yanklowitz-novominsker-and-oo-theology/page/3#post-524976

    But I don’t think the response would be applicable here.

    #1044677
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Of course my response is applicable here.

    It’s one thing to do aveiros because you struggle with a tayva, like most of us. And it’s even one thing to do aveiros because you are a kofer like the choveveiniks.

    But these guys do aveiros because they hate Hashem. If you hate Hashem, you’ll try to do bad things whenever you can, just to be moreid.

    #1044678
    voos epes
    Member

    I kind if showed how it’s not an Aveireh but ok at least I showed that nk never denied the holocaust so I accomplished something

    #1044679
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Popa:

    Sam’s point there was that if an apikorus believes that he is not an apikorus then his status as an apikorus should have no practical ramifications for us. You pointed out there, that if the reason why he believes that he is not an apikorus is that he is following a shita which you believe to be out of bounds, then he would be suspect of doing so in all areas of halacha and cannot be trusted at all. In other words his misguidedness is relevant on a practical level.

    Here though, the Neturei Karta folk believe that they are doing the Ratzon Hashem. You can point out that they are misguided and you can try to convince them to change, but I don’t see how you can know that they hate Hashem. They might love Hashem more than anyone here, but they just don’t know how to properly show it. Unless you are asserting that they are lying to themselves, but I don;t know how you could prove that either. Just to be clear, I am not defending Neturei Karta in any way shape or form; I’m just pointing out that it does not necessarily follow from their actions that they hate Hashem, and if the issue is whether they hate Hashem, it is irrelevant whether they are right or wrong.

    #1044680
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, if they believe they are doing ratzon Hashem, but really they hate Hashem and that is what is driving them, then doesn’t it follow that they’d also be driven to do other things against Hashem?

    #1044681
    voos epes
    Member

    Interesting point

    #1044682
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Popa:

    Yes, if in actuality they are severely misguided then it would probably carry over to other things and your point in the other thread would stand, namely that you wouldn’t be able to trust anything they do. But people here are alleging that they actually hate Hashem. Doing something which Hashem hates is not the same as hating Hashem. So they might do other things against Hashem, but not necessarily because they hate Hashem. Simply because they think that that’s what Hashem wants.

    #1044683
    voos epes
    Member

    Everything done is mekadesh sheim shmayim

    #1044684
    MDG
    Participant

    “Everything done is mekadesh sheim shmayim”

    You wish.

    #1044685
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Doing something which Hashem hates is not the same as hating Hashem.

    I’m alleging that they hate Hashem, because they hate the Jewish people.

    Everything done is mekadesh sheim shmayim

    Well, everything eventually leads to kiddush Hashem. In their case, when we are eventually yatzu v’ra’u b’pigrei ha’anoshim haposhim bi, ki solaatom lo samus v’isham lo sichbeh

    #1044686
    voos epes
    Member

    I know it as a fact

    #1044687
    MDG
    Participant

    Ok, so I guess this guy is Leshaim Shamayim:

    PHOTOS: Friedman’s Kids Denied Access To School

    So he got his girls kissed by a Holocaust denier. What a Tzaddik ! Like father, like daughters.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/151626/video-kol-chai-radio-speaks-with-moshe-aryeh-friedman-who-forced-his-sons-to-go-to-girls-yeshiva.html

    #1044688
    voos epes
    Member

    That was ridiculous what they did to him and his family

    #1044689
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That was ridiculous what they did to him and his family

    You mean that they allowed them into the girls school. Yes, they should stop taking government money so they won’t have to do that.

    #1044690
    voos epes
    Member

    No I mean robbing his house however he shouldn’t have used his children as tools in his dispute with them

    #1044691
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh, I didn’t realize his house was robbed. But if it was after he sued them to put his kids in the school, so then he’s already a moiser-no?

    And being a moiser is certainly much worse than being oiver on the three shevuos. There is no source that we kill someone who is oiver on the three shevuos.

    #1044692
    voos epes
    Member

    Not at all

    #1044693
    OURtorah
    Participant

    little froggie- i totally understand everything you are saying, and you are correct. but my question for you is how do you come about interacting with NK then? am i supposed to be having a yelling match?

    To me they are a bunch of brain washed cult memebers who don’t know any better, and if we don’t approach them in a respectful way, how could they ever understand what they are doing is very very harmful? It is the same way we need to talk to reform people, conservative etc.

    Yes we can hate someone, but yelling will not get us anywhere.

    #1044694
    voos epes
    Member

    There is nothing wrong with a clean brain

    #1044695
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Not at all what?

    Not all worse than being oiver on the three shevuous? That’s an interesting opinion. Do you have any source that we kill people that are oiver on the three shevuous (besides your support for terrorism, I mean).

    #1044696
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    if we don’t approach them in a respectful way, how could they ever understand what they are doing is very very harmful?

    Who says the goal is to help them understand that they are being harmful? Who says they don’t know? Maybe they do, but don’t care. Even if they don’t know, why assume there’s anything to do about it? They’re not going to listen to us either way.

    I think our job is to distance ourselves from them and try to minimize the chillul Hashem as much as possible.

    #1044697
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    OK, A GOOD question.

    Here lies the main difference. The reform conservative etc. are not haters of our people, neither of HaShem. And, if I may add, it’s IS possible to get through to them. These characters, however, are ???? ????? ?????, they are ????? ???? ?? ???? therefore they’re ???? ?????. And it’s a mitzvah to hate these as an extension of Ahavas HaShem – we cannot stand a hater of our Best Friend. No, we’re not here to get through to them – we can’t – nobody could – we’re just here to show our utter contempt towards ????? ??? ????. That’s ???? ?? ?????, no answer, because there’s no dealing with them, just for us (and others so they not join).

    That’s what David Hamelech wrote, ??? ?????? ?’ ????.. ??????? ??? ??. The same Dovid Hamelech, fiery with love for HaShem and Jewish people, wrote the immortal, inspiring word of Tehillim, laden with feelings of yearning, repentance, joy, awe etc.

    #1044698
    voos epes
    Member

    Israel is the biggest chillul Hashem

    #1044699
    voos epes
    Member

    You seem to have an utter hatred towards people that disagree with your views however do you have a similar hatred of zionists especially the anti religious ones ? I doubt as much as you hate nk

    #1044700
    eek
    Member

    “Israel is the biggest chillul Hashem”

    ??

    Do you know how many nisim hashem has performed for Israel?? I think Hashem is very “happy” with Israel (c’v’yachol). You have no corroboration for this claim either.

    Also, in order to be ‘biggest’, something needs to be the item in a closed set that is the most big. You have no closed set nor do you have a method of measuring what is the most big in that hypothetical set.

    But that’s beside the point, the main point is that yelling ‘Zionists are the root of all evil’ is not a convincing argument for anything. That is a childish, emotional response with no content.

    Please try again.

    (No, I didn’t mean to re-position the rocket)

    #1044701
    eek
    Member

    “You seem to have an utter hatred towards people that disagree with your views however do you have a similar hatred of zionists especially the anti religious ones ? I doubt as much as you hate nk”

    1. That doesn’t classify as English.

    2. Are you comparing religious zionists to neturei karta? First of all, lets assume for the moment that Zionist are misguided, what’s the problem? The only issue is that they violate an agadata found in the gemara. Where is the commandment to hate them-its a fairly weak issur (especially compunded with ain misyashvim b’divrei agada (see rashba megilla 15b and Noda Biyehuda YD 161, and Shut Rashba chelk aleph siman nun)?Now, lets understand the problem with being a neture karta member: They want to kill Jews, which, last time I checked, is an issur that is yehareg v’al yaavor (for real). They are not comparable.

    #1044702
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Thanks daasyachid and little froggie!

    I appreciate ur clarification.

    Voos- Israel has made tons of kiddish Hashem in this world:

    – sending advanced medical teams to natural disasters world wide

    – treating all citizens in hospitals equally

    – when three boys were kidnapped and the mothers stayed strong and showed that publically and showed am yisroel was united and together.

    #1044703
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you know how many nisim hashem has performed for Israel?? I think Hashem is very “happy” with Israel

    Maybe He is very angry that there is a government in Eretz Yisroel run by Jews in a very non Torahdik way, but despite that, He protects us because He loves us so much, and/or, as the Brisker Rov said, in the zechus of the Talmud Torah which takes place there.

    It is not a stirah to say that the State of Israel is a chillul Hashem, and so is today’s NK.

    #1044704
    eek
    Member

    So according to the Brisker Rav there is no difference between a yeshiva in CHUL and a yeshiva in EY?

    #1044705
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m not aware of anything he said comparing or contrasting the two.

    #1044706
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Little Froggie:

    I will reiterate that I am not trying to justify anything that they do, but how do you know that they hate Hashem?

    #1044707
    voos epes
    Member

    Here’s a list of “accomplishments done by Israel either directly or indirectly 1 25000 Jewish deaths 2 global anti semitism 3 turning millions of frum yidden into chiloinim 4 thousands of arab deaths violating the aseres hadibros 5 stealing Arabs homes forcibly u could go on and on but I think you get my point

    #1044708
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Even if Israel did some bad things, that does not justify your actions.

    #1044709
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    u could go on and on but I think you get my point

    That you hate Hashem. We get the point. We got it before you started babbling.

    #1044710
    voos epes
    Member

    Neturei Karta accomplishments reduction of Arab hatred towards Jews read the comments they leave On videos relating to nk to prove my point

    #1044712
    voos epes
    Member

    Oh speaking of the zionists prevented Jews from escaping europe. Ben-Gurion said in 1938: “If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution. For we must take into account not only the lives of these children but also the history of the people of Israel.” (Biography of Ben-Gurion by Shabtai Teveth, pp. 855-56)

    #1044713
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    PAA, Sorry I missed that.

    And the obvious reason is – because they hate His people. HaShem and His people are one. ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????.

    Nope. I wouldn’t think someone who publicly embrace murderers of His people to be loving His people. Or Him!

    #1044714

    Neturei Karta INCREASES Arab hatred towards Jews. They use the idea that there are “religious” Jews (YES in quotes because at this point they are just religiously CRAZY. I don’t think their behavior and actions allow them to be considered Jews anymore, let alone considered religious Jews) supporting them as justification for killing “evil Zionists.”

    Jews who support the murder of other Jews are disgusting.

    #1044715
    voos epes
    Member

    Please read the quote I left and tell me it’s not disturbing

    #1044716
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    LF: what is the source of that hebrew phrase you posted?

    #1044717
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Please read the quote I left and tell me it’s not disturbing

    Oh it’s disturbing.

    And it’s totally convinced me that the terrorists are right to be killing us!

    #1044718
    Sam2
    Participant

    VE: Other people having said disturbing things (and the Bn Gurion quote is taken out of context) doesn’t make it okay to do disturbing things in the future.

    #1044719
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Little Froggie:

    You left out a key word from that Medrash:

    ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?????

    ????

    ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? (???? ?? ?) ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????

    (Sifrei in Beha’aloscha)

    It doesn’t mean that if you hate the Jews then you by definition hate Hashem. It means that if you hate the Jews you are treated as if you hate Hashem. This can be proven from the Yalkut Shimoni, which brings this medrash but adds a line:

    ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? which obviously does not mean that you literally helped Hashem. It means that you are treated as if you had helped Hashem.

    Therefore, I don’t think it’s fair to assume that certain people hate Hashem. Maybe according to your perspective (which I am not disagreeing with) their actions would constitute hating Hashem. But they are not coming from this perspective. From their perspective they are doing what Hashem wants them to do. They might be 100% wrong and deserving of vilification but that doesn’t translate into them hating Hashem.

    #1044720
    voos epes
    Member

    That’s not true I’m sorry

    #1044721
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    You think Nk are the only ones that don’t like zionists? theres a sane way of showing that and an insane way.

    Do you know how many nisim hashem has performed for Israel?? I think Hashem is very “happy” with Israel (c’v’yachol).

    According to that logic the nissim of hitlers rise and the holocaust shows hashem is “happy” with the murder of 6 mill. The only ones who know what hashem is “happy” with is our gedolim.

    #1044722

    Hi, I’m fairly new to the site and have been following this conversation for a while. I felt compelled to create a membership and add my 2 cents, since I have some first-hand knowledge that might be helpful. A close relative of mine unfortunately got hooked up to NK, and b”h left after they turned more extreme. I know the NK ideology very well. NK sincerely believes not only that they are doing what Hashem wants, but that they’re actually “saving” Jews, including Jewish Zionists. They gain chizuk from the countless emails and posts to their website from people named Muhammed and Ali, claiming that they were intending to blow themselves up and now that they see that there are Jews out there supporting them they won’t do it, in order to prevent the killing of anti-Zionists in the processs.

    What NK fails to understand, and what our argument to them must be, is that while they might have convinced a minimal amount of wannabe terrorists on one hand, they do not decrease terror attacks in general, and probably only increase them. Hamas and the PA still have plenty of members who either ignore NK or are just emboldened by them, using NK to prove that they’re killing for a worthy cause.

    And the main problem is, NK currently does not have the backing of a single Torah authority to my knowledge. They’re must be a reason why all the rabbanim, including talmidim muvhakim of the Satmar Rebbe ZT”L, do not support them. Even if they would actually reduce terrorism (which has so far only escalated after their cozy meetings with the rasha in Iran), they would definitely need daas torah to justify the highly questionable means towards that end.

    #1044724
    voos epes
    Member

    Can you prove that ?

    #1044725
    eek
    Member

    The only ones who know how to think are our Gedolim.

    #1044726
    voos epes
    Member

    Bnei yoel supports them

Viewing 50 posts - 201 through 250 (of 309 total)
  • The topic ‘Westboro baptist church?’ is closed to new replies.