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To be fair, I can see the opponents point:
A) if this guy thinks he is ready to face the world with only a few years of torah under his belt, he is kidding himself, and will likely see his yiras shomayim go down the drain in a few years (something that, could have been fortified, had he stayed in learning a few more
B) the whole idea of a bocher being ready to walk away from the four walls of the bais, just because he is getting married, may mean that we will walk away from davening, and his seder, should the demands of marriage / family life call for it.
a ben torah is someone who leads his life according to the torah. he fears H-Shem and tries to fulfill as many mitzvos as he can. someone who is always looking to grow. someone, like you said, who displays middos tovos. someone who tries to be the best jew he can be to make H-Shem happy.
A ben Torah, in my opinion, is someone who tries to follow the Torah in everything he does. It doesn’t mean someone who learned, went to yeshiva, or anything like that. It means a good, honest person who always tries to do what Hashem wants us to do.
BP Totty – I feel you. A Ben Torah is a lifestyle dedicated to Torah. The definition of a Talmid Chocham who is putter from paying certain taxes is one who goes back to learning when he gets his purnussah. If someone in Kollel is not learning when he has the chance to, and someone is working, and when he finishes he goes straight to learn, then by the previous definition he’s a Tolmid Chachom. Simlarly taking treife gelt, or bad midos and/or haskofas is definitely not a Ben Torah.
Even though they work, their heart and mind is in the Beis Medrash (like my Totty 😀 )
What if even though they work, their heart and mind and internet browser is in the Coffee Room? (like BP Totty 😀 )
(Seriously, though, good definition and something to which to aspire!)
Simple take it literally a child of the Torah
HashemLovesMe
There is no need to write H-ashem as Hashem is spelled Heh Shin Mem. If it were spelled with a Yud before the Heh then I would hear the need for a dash. The point of Hashem is so as not to say or write Hashems name or the English name which starts with the letter G capice?
Simple take it literally a child of the Torah. A faithful child does not do anything that mispleases or shames his parent
The Gemara in ???? ???? ?”? ? is not talking about a Talmid Chacham or Tzadik V’Chasid just a Simple “Ben Torah” who learned a little
???? ??? ?????? (????? ?) ????? ?? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? (?????? ??) ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ???? (?????? ??) ????? ??? ?? ?’ ???
??”?
????? ?? ??? – ??????: ???? – ????: ????? – ????: ????? ?????? ????? – ????? (????), ??? ????? ???? ???????, ?? ???? ? ?????? ????
A ben torah is one who when one sees him, the first thing that comes to mind is “he’s under the influence of torah”!
A ben torah is one who when one sees him, the first thing that comes to mind is “he’s under the influence of torah”!
A ben torah is someone who is kovea itim, with a Torah mindset, who is an eved HaShem, who tries to do mitzvos as much as he can, and who devotes at least some of his leisure time to limud hatorah.
kudos to the one who made the point that one has to be intent on living the way hashem wants you to and not simply going with the crowd whether it pertains to manner of speech davening dressing etc. while these issues might not be terrible, often they define who a person is
It seems to me that a true ben Torah is one that truly is a son of the Torah. His (or her) life should be a product of the Torah – regardless of what he or she does from day to day. The Torah does not mandate a particular lifestyle; rather, it demands that regardless of what lifestyle (profession, location, nationality, fashion taste, ect.) a person adopts as fitting their particular nature and needs, that person regulates their conduct in accordance with the Torah’s laws.
Simply put, a true ben Torah is anyone whose daily conduct in every sphere of human endeavor testifies to the content of the Torah itself. Just as a child is a reflection of its parent – not precisely identical, but reflective nonetheless – a ben Torah is reflective of the Torah itself. Even when a parent’s many children look and act differently and take different paths in their lives, they are truly children if they WAY they go about on the paths they have chosen reflects the upbringing their parents provided for them.
Sacrilege; It’s nice to see you look up to your father like that,
that is what a true ben torah’s effect should be,
that people know he’s honest, sincere and good.
BP Totty;
A Mentch, that learns Torah when he has the chance,
asks das Torah when he has a Sheilah, avoids sin like the plague,
and treats everyone with respects, not seeking it himself.
A ben torah is exactly what the words say -“A son of the torah” which means he is “ein shtick toeah aroom un aroom” It doesnt have to be learning X hours a day, (in lomdus we say “its not the kammos its the eichus”) all it is, is living a life the way the torah want you to.
LOL! @ Phrum
bein hasdorim
Like I always say, If I marry someone half the person my father is I’ll be very lucky. (not that I ever c”v compare) 😉
wiy, actually, if u notice, my screen name is written without a dash. i’m not really sure why i add it in in my posts. i guess it’s just wherever my fingers take me. no specific reason.
What is the purpose of trying to define a term?
Unless you can convince everyone to use a standard definition, what is the purpose of the discussion
real-brisker
Good definition. I would put it succinctly as “someone whos every thought, (or almost every, as thoughts are a tough area) word and deed is dictated by what is or isnt permitted by the Torah.”
Someone who practices what he learns and is an example of Torah wherever he is whether in shul,Bais Medrash,work,store,in the car, in public places and behind closed doors.
Recently we saw a head of a yeshiva honking his horn and talking while driving…is he still a ben Torah because he knows how to learn? Or shall we redefine that some that we question ourself is he a Ben Torah because he knows how to learn to he knows how to study Torah so it’s all different!!!!
Lia
Last time I checked horns were made to be honked and if theres a reason to honk, you honk. So what was wrong he was on the phone? Dont judge this Rosh Yeshiva based on an isolated incident, you have no idea what may have been going on, maybe he had an emergency call?
wiy – thanks for your haskama!
real-brisker
You are welcome. And its free lol.
The term “Ben Torah” implies such a high level of service to G-d and piety, that it should not be used to praise the living.
lia – whats wrong with honking a horn? You don’t use your cars horn? (maybe you dont drive, so you dont know what its used for, you probaly think its just an annoying noisey device) And maybe he was fatrached in learning?
I do drive.
Honking the horn=no patience!
lia- Maybe thats what you use your horn for. I dont think they invented horns in cars for people without patients, I think they are used for to attract someones attention to prevent a mishap.
BP, and if I again misunderstood you, I apologize. Maybe I am reading your posts incorrectly. If you agree with my post, then I now understand you, and I agree with yours.
shlomozalman
“Actually, the person who I regard as THE godol hador today wears colored shirts”
No offense but you aren’t the one who decides who the Gadol Hadar is.
Like I always say, If I marry someone half the person my father is I’ll be very lucky
Chances are that when he got married your father was only half the man he now is.
As the “groom” said in his speech at his 50th anniversary party, “I am twice the man she married”, and turning sideways so we could see his profile added, “thanks to my wife’s delicious cooking”!
A ben Bayis isnt always in the house of the person he is a ben bayis at. A ben Torah isnt always in the BM but is still a ben Torah.
We are ALL beni torah people. Just some people are better at some things than others. Stop catogorizing people. Hitler didn’t. Instead. to those that don’t know as much as you why not try to help them. Kol tuv.
Since there appears to be almost unanimous agreement that a ben torah strives to live all aspects of his/her life according to what the torah wants from us, then how many would say they know someone who is NOT a ben torah? Almost makes it foolish to say “I’m looking for a ben torah”, its like saying I want someone with a nose.
Seems like we have a lot of diverse, earnest and ehrlich Bnei & Banot Torah here – Baruch HaShem!
It’s too bad we can’t come up with a way to get the single ones together for shidduchim!
Shlomozalman
Who do you regard as the Godol HaDor? I’m always looking to discover Gedolim!
I would define a ben Torah as somebody who lives his lfe in accordance with the Halacha, works on his middos, and learns as much is he is able to.
Squeak
Your right.
If I marry someone who had a seder w R’ Shmuel Berenbaum ztz”l as a bachur, I’ll consider myself very lucky 😉
Sacrilege
You don’t sound like the type of girl looking for that type of guy. Your father learned with R Shmuel ZTVKL bchavrusa as a bachur? That is truly impressive! Your father must be quite a talmid chochom and lamdan. So that would make you a bas Talmid Chacham.
A Ben Torah is someone who lives his life in accordance with the Middos that the Torah he is learning imparts to him. If he is a bulvan who merely learns and does not LEARN FROM his learning, he is no Ben Torah, no matter how many years he sits in the Beis Medrash and thinks himself to be one.
Sacrilege:
R’ Shmuel Berenbaum would not approve of you shaking a man’s hand.
WIY
I dont sound like the type of girl that appreciates a husband who loves Torah and wants their home to built and filled with Torah, and will spend all his free time learning?
Man, I’ve been mis-representing myself!
myfriend
Unfortunately, R’ Shmuel wouldn’t approve of a lot of things that I do.
Sacrilege:
Which part do you find to be unfortunate? The part that R’ Shmuel wouldn’t approve of it; or the part that you do it? I would hope the latter. If so, there is room for change.
Sacrilege
You said on another thread how you listen to non Jewish music and movies.
A husband who loves Torah and wants their home to built and filled with Torah, and will spend all his free time learning doesn’t do those things and won’t want a wife who does such things. A Torah life means living a Torah life, not just learning and doing what you want in your free time. A masmid of the caliber you mention will likely be very makpid on his mitzvos and will be anti anything “goyish.”
You may think you want such a guy (maybe because your father is that way I don’t know) but your actions say that you don’t really want such a guy. Lots of people think they want a certain type of person but are fooling themselves.
Or maybe your reply was sarcastic and you aren’t looking for such a serious guy and that’s ok.
myfriend
What do you think?
Isn’t that what life is all about, growth?
WIY
(I’m going to apologize in advance for being harsh)
Because someone watches a movie or listens to English music they cant want a husband who is a Talmid Chacham, and wants a home surrounded with Torah?! No offence, that could be the most narrow minded thing I’ve read from you. Yes, I watch movies and yes I listen to English music (p.s. I havent for close to a week now) but what does that have to do with the warmth of Torah and a love and passion for Yiddishkeit?
The problem is that you equate Torah to Yeshivish. Yes, I am not Yeshivish! I’ll scream it from the hill tops. I dont need to label myself and fit myself into a mold in order to be called a “true eved Hash-m”. Thats the issue. Movies arent in the syllabus of Yeshivish so I must not want to have anything to do with Torah. Oh well, we just lost another one.
Ok, my rant is over.
BPT
That was out of left field 😉
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