January 30, 2018 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1460029Avram in MDParticipant
The little I know,
You wrote: “Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning“, to which I replied, “Phrased another way, the ends justify the means? And only a navi can foretell the actual ends.“.
I misread your sentence (interpreted “that is done” as “must be done”), and retract my response.January 30, 2018 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1460166JosephParticipant
Gaon, the son did NOT deny it, he said that he didn’t hear it himself. It is a famous quote from Rav Shach, as the fact that the son was even asked about it demonstrates.February 4, 2018 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1462081Jersey JewParticipant
You wrote, “Unfortunately our chinuch system which most swear by has failed us miserably.”
I am sorry but you are completely incorrect. If you were correct, we would be dealing with 99% off the derech instead of the other way around. There are MANY reasons why the kids go OTD and to blame the schools like you do, seemingly as the #1 reason, is completely false.February 4, 2018 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1462259The little I knowParticipant
I agree. Yeshivos do not cause 99% of the OTD problem. But the extreme the other direction is also a definite lie. No one has statistics that are scientifically reliable. We only have observation. And those who are in the trenches are work with these issues constantly have a perspective that is valuable, even if the numbers are off. There is a tendency for discussions on this topic play ping pong with the blame. “It’s the chinuch system.” “It’s the parents.” Each case varies. There is plenty of poorly exercised chinuch. There is plenty of bad parenting. Denying all responsibility is morally dishonest, and insures that big chunks of the problem will never go away.
Today’s world offers incredible ease of access to influences that are a threat to young developing minds. The schedules of parents are hectic, and make the mission of spending quality time with their children a challenge. The trends of what is acceptable and the “norm” are constantly changing, and generations struggle to recognize what is now “in”. The confusion is widespread, and nothing today is being done on a large enough scale to steady it.
Learning Torah is great. Forcing someone to adapt to a curriculum that is incompatible with his/her character is dooming the child to failure. Full time learning is bad advice for some people, and making that the yardstick is irresponsible. But trends win out over logic every time.
With all this chaos, the shortcomings of all those in caregiving positions, whether parent or mechanech, are dangerous. What do we expect from our kids?February 5, 2018 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1462299FreddyfishParticipant
18.63February 8, 2018 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1465542☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I found the following comment from TLIK:
The little I know February 7, 2018 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm
If these boys are so holy, they should be spending their time in the beis hamedrash and learning. These are hooligans who are laydig gayers, and their protests are both bitul Torah and chilul Hashem. They are the real bizayon here, not the girls. B”H none of my children are in E”Y today. If I ever caught my kid participating in this kind of despicable activity, his days in E”Y would end immediately, and I would change his chinuch to something that would guide him toward Kiddush Hashem. Probably therapy, too.
Why do you call them “hooligans”, “laydig gayers”, and “a bizayon”?
They’re cholim! Have rachmanus!February 8, 2018 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1465582The little I knowParticipant
You wrote: “Why do you call them “hooligans”, “laydig gayers”, and “a bizayon”?
They’re cholim! Have rachmanus!”
Glad you asked. The choleh that gets treatment is the one who seeks help, or struggles with that because of personal suffering. They are not claiming tzidkus while damaging others. When pure yetzer horah dresses as a tzaddik, the problem is greater. If HKB”H wishes to consider that as a choleh, He can certainly do so. We cannot. We are not experiencing his illness, we are experiencing his violence and damage being inflicted on others. There needs to be zero tolerance. As far as yenem’s spirituality, we have little to no control. Our limitations on tochachah are severe, and the efficacy of that is also poor. It is the rare exception when a doctor can successfully treat the resistant patient. As long as anyone conveys to these thugs that they are doing something holy, they will trash their learning to be busy being לוחם מלחמות השם. That’s what they did here. If this behavior gets rewarded, it will continue.
I am all for therapy, and recognizing that OTD kids are cholim. I still hold them responsible for their behavior. The OTD kid that steals money from the parents to finance their vices is still liable. The illness does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.February 8, 2018 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1465598livelovelaugh18Participant
It’s not a contradiction. You can keep the laws in your home and still not throw out children who choose to disobey. It’s easier to throw away sinners but thats not what Hashem does and not what I believe He wants from us.February 8, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1465907keithParticipant
The following is from the posts here. I write my response below.
“The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we can’t do it.
Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon Ha’Kohen?
Yet Halacha l’maaisa today is that we now here in America are deputized to be a Pinchos in our times. Check the local copy of your Shulchan Aruch. The very same S”A that tells us that, today, we are to (physically if necessary) punish wayward Yidden who violate בין אדם למקום.
I don’t accept the premise of this statement. I think it is incumbent on parents to try and maintain a positive relationship with their child. At the same time, as managers of the home, the parents have a right to set rules and expectations for what happens under their roof. Having different beliefs does not make it ok for a child to defy rules or severely disrupt the home.
“This is a kosher kitchen. Please do not bring that food in here.”
“This home is Shabbos observant. We expect everyone here to put cell phones away. It can be used later tonight after havdala.”
We all agree that hashem is our ultimate father.
When a petson does an avaira publicly or in Private , does hashem throw him to the dogs? Does hashem throw him out of the shul he once davenef in? Who are you to decide as a father to disown your son for being a ball avaira.
You as a father are a human just like your son . You too slip here and there in yiddishkiet .perhaps its only in private so no one sees you . But hashem sees you
Does he throw you to the dogs? Does he strike you dead? Are you better anf smarter then hashem who watches all you do behind closr doors? Think very hard before throwing your child out of your house. Just remember. What goes around comes around. Hashem works is very wonderous Ways”
Wow. I am BT. You guys have all had a million more hours than me in this stuff. I recognize my ignorance. My understanding is Moshiach has not yet come, and our Temple is still in ruins, NOT because someone ate treif or turned on a light on Shabbos but because of Sinas Chinam. And that Ahavas Chinam is necessary to bring him and build the Temple. My understanding is that, in the absence (because of our many sins) of Moshiach and a Temple and the Sanhedrin, there is no qualified authority to make any punishment as Pinchas visited upon Zimri, and that Pinchas’ action was lauded as it was appropriate only for him and only in that exact situation and that exact time and not to be generalized to anyone else (as long as we have no Moshiach and no Temple and certainly in the absence of a Sanhedrin).
It is interesting those who are critical of Chabad – I am not Chabad but am Chabad-sympathetic – for how much they grow. Chabad seems centered on doing the ratzon of H-shem, recognizing that every mitzvah is a million diamonds, and that ahavas is central.
Are we not to emulate H-shem? In the 13 middos, Ahavas has to do with all of them. In how we are to emulate H-shem, my understanding is that ahavas or chesed is almost always the right answer, and you better be sure before you decide gevurah is the right answer because you may be or are likely wrong, and even if you are right you have to be very very careful with it, like it’s chemotherapy, which it is.
From a secular perspective, you can convince someone to act a certain way if they think you are looking out for them – if they think you love them. If you are just critical, it is very difficult to get someone to do what you want. If your goal is to bring someone OTD back on the derech, it won’t work without love. It just won’t. It doesn’t mean you give up Shabbos and kashrus. It means love them. If your goal is to punish or to feel good about yourself, that’s entirely different but you need to be honest that you are not really trying to bring someone back to H-shem.
For me, I find that when I unleash strictness, it quickly turns into anger or cruelty. For me, it is very dangerous and I do not have good control of it. When it comes to kindness, I think there is much less danger – in most cases – of using kindness too much. Of course “if you are kind when you should be cruel you will end up cruel when you should be kind.” But for me at least, in my life, in general, choosing kindness is most often the right thing and strictness is most often the wrong decision.
My understanding is life is a mirror. How we treat others is how HKBH treats us. If I recall correctly, Baal Shemtov said we get to choose our own punishment. We see another act how we acted and how we judge him is how we are judged. If we want to be judged with chesed after 120, we have to have judged others with chesed. If we treat others only with gevurah, our heavenly din will be through gevurah. I am certainly not righteous enough to be judged that way. I have done way too many aveiros and too few mitzvos, and even the mitzvos I do I’m not sure are worth anything. So I try my best to judge others through and act with chesed and fall all the time.
My two cents…
KeithFebruary 8, 2018 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1466006☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The OTD kid that steals money from the parents to finance their vices is still liable. The illness does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.
I believe that is not what you said earlier, when you claimed that they are not baalei aveirah.
Unless for some reason you hold them liable for bein adam lachaveiro but not bein adam lamakom. If that’s the case, please explain why.
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