What percentage of off the derech kids/teens/adults return to Yiddishkeit?

The little I know,

You wrote: “Absolutely everything that is done in the way of chinuch must be focused on bringing about the desired result of the child’s learning“, to which I replied, “Phrased another way, the ends justify the means? And only a navi can foretell the actual ends.“.

I misread your sentence (interpreted “that is done” as “must be done”), and retract my response.

Takes2-2tango,

You wrote, “Unfortunately our chinuch system which most swear by has failed us miserably.”

I am sorry but you are completely incorrect. If you were correct, we would be dealing with 99% off the derech instead of the other way around. There are MANY reasons why the kids go OTD and to blame the schools like you do, seemingly as the #1 reason, is completely false.

18.63

DY:

You wrote: “Why do you call them “hooligans”, “laydig gayers”, and “a bizayon”?
They’re cholim! Have rachmanus!”

Glad you asked. The choleh that gets treatment is the one who seeks help, or struggles with that because of personal suffering. They are not claiming tzidkus while damaging others. When pure yetzer horah dresses as a tzaddik, the problem is greater. If HKB”H wishes to consider that as a choleh, He can certainly do so. We cannot. We are not experiencing his illness, we are experiencing his violence and damage being inflicted on others. There needs to be zero tolerance. As far as yenem’s spirituality, we have little to no control. Our limitations on tochachah are severe, and the efficacy of that is also poor. It is the rare exception when a doctor can successfully treat the resistant patient. As long as anyone conveys to these thugs that they are doing something holy, they will trash their learning to be busy being לוחם מלחמות השם. That’s what they did here. If this behavior gets rewarded, it will continue.

I am all for therapy, and recognizing that OTD kids are cholim. I still hold them responsible for their behavior. The OTD kid that steals money from the parents to finance their vices is still liable. The illness does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

The following is from the posts here. I write my response below.

“The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we can’t do it.
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Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon Ha’Kohen?
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Yet Halacha l’maaisa today is that we now here in America are deputized to be a Pinchos in our times. Check the local copy of your Shulchan Aruch. The very same S”A that tells us that, today, we are to (physically if necessary) punish wayward Yidden who violate בין אדם למקום.
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I don’t accept the premise of this statement. I think it is incumbent on parents to try and maintain a positive relationship with their child. At the same time, as managers of the home, the parents have a right to set rules and expectations for what happens under their roof. Having different beliefs does not make it ok for a child to defy rules or severely disrupt the home.

“This is a kosher kitchen. Please do not bring that food in here.”

“This home is Shabbos observant. We expect everyone here to put cell phones away. It can be used later tonight after havdala.”
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We all agree that hashem is our ultimate father.
When a petson does an avaira publicly or in Private , does hashem throw him to the dogs? Does hashem throw him out of the shul he once davenef in? Who are you to decide as a father to disown your son for being a ball avaira.
You as a father are a human just like your son . You too slip here and there in yiddishkiet .perhaps its only in private so no one sees you . But hashem sees you
Does he throw you to the dogs? Does he strike you dead? Are you better anf smarter then hashem who watches all you do behind closr doors? Think very hard before throwing your child out of your house. Just remember. What goes around comes around. Hashem works is very wonderous Ways”
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Wow. I am BT. You guys have all had a million more hours than me in this stuff. I recognize my ignorance. My understanding is Moshiach has not yet come, and our Temple is still in ruins, NOT because someone ate treif or turned on a light on Shabbos but because of Sinas Chinam. And that Ahavas Chinam is necessary to bring him and build the Temple. My understanding is that, in the absence (because of our many sins) of Moshiach and a Temple and the Sanhedrin, there is no qualified authority to make any punishment as Pinchas visited upon Zimri, and that Pinchas’ action was lauded as it was appropriate only for him and only in that exact situation and that exact time and not to be generalized to anyone else (as long as we have no Moshiach and no Temple and certainly in the absence of a Sanhedrin).

It is interesting those who are critical of Chabad – I am not Chabad but am Chabad-sympathetic – for how much they grow. Chabad seems centered on doing the ratzon of H-shem, recognizing that every mitzvah is a million diamonds, and that ahavas is central.

Are we not to emulate H-shem? In the 13 middos, Ahavas has to do with all of them. In how we are to emulate H-shem, my understanding is that ahavas or chesed is almost always the right answer, and you better be sure before you decide gevurah is the right answer because you may be or are likely wrong, and even if you are right you have to be very very careful with it, like it’s chemotherapy, which it is.

From a secular perspective, you can convince someone to act a certain way if they think you are looking out for them – if they think you love them. If you are just critical, it is very difficult to get someone to do what you want. If your goal is to bring someone OTD back on the derech, it won’t work without love. It just won’t. It doesn’t mean you give up Shabbos and kashrus. It means love them. If your goal is to punish or to feel good about yourself, that’s entirely different but you need to be honest that you are not really trying to bring someone back to H-shem.

For me, I find that when I unleash strictness, it quickly turns into anger or cruelty. For me, it is very dangerous and I do not have good control of it. When it comes to kindness, I think there is much less danger – in most cases – of using kindness too much. Of course “if you are kind when you should be cruel you will end up cruel when you should be kind.” But for me at least, in my life, in general, choosing kindness is most often the right thing and strictness is most often the wrong decision.

My understanding is life is a mirror. How we treat others is how HKBH treats us. If I recall correctly, Baal Shemtov said we get to choose our own punishment. We see another act how we acted and how we judge him is how we are judged. If we want to be judged with chesed after 120, we have to have judged others with chesed. If we treat others only with gevurah, our heavenly din will be through gevurah. I am certainly not righteous enough to be judged that way. I have done way too many aveiros and too few mitzvos, and even the mitzvos I do I’m not sure are worth anything. So I try my best to judge others through and act with chesed and fall all the time.

My two cents…
Keith