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Can someone kindly provide a coherent, articulate explanation of the Israeli Yeshiva world’s opposition to the army draft in any shape or form?
I personally can’t see what’s wrong with allowing a small number of Iluyim to stay in Yeshiva [and use their time properly], be that 10 or 20 % (depending on which Israeli politician) – or I would suggest 30% – and the remaining 70/80% or so, who (from my experience) do not all use every minute for Torah vaAvodah, to spend a few years in Yeshiva and then a couple of years in the army/public service? However it appears that the Gedolim are adamant that no-one at all should go to the army.
Why is the Yeshiva velt so opposed to giving anything back to the State of Israel? Is it not hypocrisy to happily accept benefits, but not give back to the same system? Doesn’t this (understandably) fuel anti-Charedi feeling in Israel, which jeopardises Charedi power in other issues?
NB. I am a frum ex-Yeshiva, ex-Kollel young man who currently works. I am not asking Lekanter – I am genuinely curious.
1. Because we (the Agudas Yisroel, etc.) oppose the very existence of the State. We cooperate with it since it de facto exists. And we don’t advocate its dismantelment since once it was born destroying it completely is worse. But we minimize our interaction and cooperation with it to the bare minimum.
2. Because anyone who wants to learn Torah full-time is entitled to do so even if he is a poor learner. All that is to be expected of him is to DESIRE to learn Torah.
3. Because the State Army is full of pritzus and will inevitably make many frum draftees into chilonim.
4. Because Torah learning is the true and best protection for Klal Yisroel, much more effectively than being a soldier.
5. Because the Army doesn’t need us. They are doing fine without us. Even their own Generals publicly admit that drafting Chareidim will NOT help the Army and, in fact, will make the Army’s job more difficult.
If you weren’t asking lekanter, you wouldn’t insert hyperbole such as: “Why is the Yeshiva velt so opposed to giving anything back to the State of Israel?”
Aside from other reasons, who decides which bochurim stay in Yeshiva and which go to the army?
1. The survival of the Jewish people is at stake. Learning Torah is more important. Even if Israel were “driven into the sea”, we would survive because there are Jews throughout the world learning Torah. We’ve been through a lot a tight situations, and the single theme in Jewish history is that Torah and Mitsvos is the key to survival.
2. The IDF is very hostile to Orthodox Jews. In fact, a large percentage of Shomer Shabbos Jews who serve do so only in segregated units where their frumkeit is tolerated, but where they are discriminated against in terms of job assignments and promotions. In general, it is very hard for Orthodox Jews to function in a secular environment in which Shabbos and Kashruth are at best tolerated, and where pritzus is a social norm (which is why some rabbanim poskened the army has a din of a Beis Busha – a view supported by widespread complaints among hiloniiot of sexual harassment). There is also the fact that the IDF has historically seen its job as “modernizing” (a polite way of saying “secularizing”) people in creating a modern secular state – which has great significance by halacha since if you are in a situation where non-observance is being coerced for reasons of undermining yiddishkeit, one is required to have mesiras nefesh even over trivial things (the traditional example is over how one ties one shoes). That means a frum soldier will end up being in a situation of having to give up on mitsvos, or openly oppose orders in an institution where there is seriously “frowned upon”.
3. Some frum Jews question the legitimacy of the State of Israel. If one bases the Jews’ claim to Eretz Yisrael on Torah, you have the problem that it was clearly given for the purpose of doing mitsvos. If there is no halachic basic for the state founded by Hertzl and Ben Gurioun, how it is mutar to kill (or be killed) in defense of that state, noting that in “modern” warfare a soldier often has no control over who he kills. In most western countries, someone with such views would be a conscientious objector and would be exempt from military service – but for Israel to accept such a view as legitimate would be admit that it is a question whether the State of Israel has a valid claim to the Jewish legacy pertaining to Eretz Yisrael (and perhaps it is, as the Arabs claim, an Euro-American ultra-secular colonial regime, and no more).
The world exists in the merit of Limud Torah. If the Israeli gov’t pulls everyone out of yeshiva, in what merit will Israel be protected? In the merit of the IDF? Even Rav Ovadia went so far as to say that it would be better for the yeshiva bachurim to leave Israel and study in chutz l’Aretz, than to be drafted.
avhaben- I disagree with some of your points.
1. If that’s the attitude, then government funding shouldn’t be taken either. That’s like taking goods from a store but because you oppose its existence then you refuse to pay for it. If you are benefiting from the State, then you also have to pay for it whatever they charge, be it taxes and/or service. If you oppose its existence to the point that you won’t follow its rules, then you can’t take the benefits either.
2a. A desire is not enough. You also have to be willing to put in the time an effort. Many guys genuinely want to sit in Kollel, but they waste time when they shouldn’t be… either by missing sedorim or not learning as hard as they can when they are in seder. The people who should be in kollel are not necessarily the strongest learners, but those who want to be there and are willing to put in as much effort in their learning as they can for all the required amount of time.
2b. There is a concept of “yagata umatzata ta’amin, yagata velo matzata al ta’amin.” Basically translated as if a person says they put in effort (in Torah) and were successful then you should believe them, but if they say they put in effort but didn’t succeed then don’t believe them (that they put in effort). There is a havtachah that a person who puts in effort in learning will be successful (though I admit, I do not know how to define success). While it is true that even a poor learner has the right to sit in Kollel, if he doesn’t succeed in his learning, it implies that he is not trying so hard.
3. I don’t know the metzius, but assuming the medinah will expand Nachal Charedi (which I don’t know if they plan on doing that), then it should be fine. And even if it doesn’t, the army lichorah is no more pritzusdik than your average job in Israel or America. Yeshiva should prepare Benei Torah to be able to work in the real world and to overcome these challenges. If the army will turn frum draftees into chilonim, then our parents and yeshivos have failed us. Are you saying that no frum person should be allowed to work because the secular world is inherently a pritzusdik environment?
4. Even in the times of Moshe and Yeshoshua they had armies. The soldiers were the talmidei chachamim. Hashem told Gidon specifically to take the best people for the army. Learning Torah is the true protection, but not to the exclusion of derech hateva. In fact, it’s probably even better protection if the Talmidei Chachamim bring their zechusim to the battle field.
5. I don’t know if that’s true. If the government wants them to serve then that implies they need them. Maybe I’m wrong. I guess I’m still naive and believe that the secular government is not “anti-frum” they’re just not frum and I don’t believe that the government of Israel is trying to get rid of the Chareidim and Kollel.
Avhaben, your post excellently summarizes decades of knee-jerk draft refusal. The “we” you speak of, however, is fraying at the edges and, possibly, crumbling at the core. Two main things have brought this about: the rapid growth of the frum population and the dawning realization among its members that the rest of Israel is not only quite normal but attractive in positive ways, putting fallacy (I won’t call it “lie”) to the horror stories (as in fictions) that are common coin in this world. Many young frum Yids have abandoned the hate-the-state approach that they were taught. If you keep propagating it as the essence of frumkeit, they’ll abandon frumkeit too.
Your weakest argument is that “the Army doesn’t need us. They are doing fine without us.” Mr. Kuperman terms this a form of conscientious objection. Neither way works when a population group (or in fact its leaders) defines itself as exempt on the grounds of “We’ve got better things to do,” even when for some of us the “things” might really be better.
I think the fear of the draft emanates from something different, expressed in extreme form in a poster I saw in Meron. It proposed the elimination of bein hazmanim because bachurim are able to circulate at that time of year and encounter things that (get this) make them hate the state less. Yes, hate: ???? ??????. The hate rhetoric directed at our country loses its effect once you know the country. And serving in the army is the paramount way of knowing the country — geography, population, and all.
I rest my case.
simcha613-
1. If we shouldn’t take legal funding, we must be exempted from all taxation. Additionally, the rules specifically exempt us from the draft (as they have since the first day the State existed), so in this sense we in fact ARE following the rules.
2. A desire to learn Torah most certainly IS all that’s needed. Even if one doesn’t have a good head for learning. Of course effort must go along with it. See YD Hichos Talmud Torah 246:21 and see Rambam who says all that’s needed is to desire to learn.
3. The Israeli army is FAR more pritzusdik than the average American job.
4. They should continue having an army. No one said otherwise. There are plenty of chilonim to fill the army.
5. The Generals and Israeli politicians publicly said as much. And it was reported in the zionists own press.
Natfush-
The Amish also do not serve as an entire group. But we have much better reasons, as I enumerated above.
A very small percentage of Israelis between the ages of 18 and 24 are in Yeshiva. The small percentage of Israelis of such age in Yeshiva are already doing more than their fair share. We need to INCREASE the number of Jews in Yeshiva. We ought to draft, say, 20% of 18 – 24 year old chilonim into Yeshivas. Currently only Frum Jews are doing their national duty to protect our people by learning Torah. It is high time that the chilonim start to do their fair share. It is time at least a small percentage of chilonim, say 20%, are drafted into Limid Torah to protect Klal Yisroel.
Avhaben, 200 years ago in Lita,did all adult men exercise “their right” to sit and learn or no? If no (and it is “no”), why not?
For those claiming the IDF is very hostile to Orthodox Jews, this is simply false. There are Orthodox Jews at every level of authority in the IDF. The entire IDF serves only glatt kosher. They have many staff rabbanim and they do their best to minimize cross-gender interaction within the Orthodox units.
Additionally, no one is suggesting that Torah Study be eliminated, they are only suggesting that only the best should make toraso umnaso, a situation which has been the norm in Klal Yisroel forever.
Can someone kindly provide a coherent, articulate explanation of the Israeli Yeshiva world’s opposition to the army draft in any shape or form?
The draft is a side point. I would imagine that many Rabbonim are happy regarding the status quo, as it forces their “students” out of mainstream society and into the bais medrash.
As Rav Chaim says, the draft is Sakanas Nefashos. Charadi Israeli society does not build up the individual bochur to the point where they can withstand the temptation of the outside world. If you think the OTD rate is high now, imagine what it would be like when Charadim get jobs and realize that they can have when their neighbor the DL has and still be a Oved Hashem! Or even worse, decide that their neighbor the non-frum has a better life and joins him.
Simply put, avoiding the draft is a matter of survival for Charaidi society.
Avhaben, again, your “we” is fraying like a bumper sticker in an Israeli summer. Its hard core may revert to its numbers as they were two generations ago. Then maybe there will indeed be a “we” that can be exempted, a prospect that all sane Zionists accept. But not a population of hundreds of thousands that (unlike the Amish) yearns to participate in the mainstream.
Leyzer-
Since we agree that anyone who desires to learn Torah full time is entitled to do so, even if he doesn’t have a good head, let me ask you what DaasYochid asked earlier: If the State forced a certain percent of Chareidim to join the army and leave the Beis Medrash, who will choose who is going to be forced to leave the Beis Medrash? A test cannot be the answer, since as we agreed someone who cannot learn well but really wants to learn is entitled to do so.
Well the Bears need to trade up to get a linebacker to replace Urlacher.
Leyzer: I’ve been in a number of kollelim in E’Y and you are right, there are those that spend more time in the coffee room then in the beis medrish.
The question is, what’s the cut-off point? Let’s say it’s difficult for someone to learn 8 hours a day, but he can do 6 or 4. Is his 4 hours of Torah learning worthy enough in your eyes to keep him in kollel? How about someone who can get 2 hours of learning? Is the zchus of two strong hours of learning b’ritzifus adequate to keep him in kollel? How about the guy who can do 8 hours but he constantly needs breaks every 15 min or half an hour. How can you quantify or qualify the amount of learning a person does to judge whether he should be given the opportunity to learn Torah?
And let’s say you make the cut-off at 4 hours – someone who can’t learn for 1 full seder should go to the army. Now what happens to the guy who can plug away for 3 hours? How will he make up that time every day while he’s training in the army or while he’s sitting in Gaza? Do you imagine that he will be able to maintain a strong 3 hours under those conditions even if he did have the time?
So do you throw out 70% of the kolleleit so that you make sure you catch all the serious non-learners, or do you keep them all in so that maybe even they will pick up a sefer once in a while.
Which is more important: an hour of Torah study or 3 years of army service?
An hour of Torah study, for sure.
Not even a difficult question.
benignuman: What you are saying is not entirely true. There was an article here on YWN just a few months ago about a Kol Isha problem that occurred.
Also, it may be true that only the strongest learners were the ones who learned in Europe. Your argument brings to mind those who argue that since there were so many women in Europe who didn’t cover their hair, woman today shouldn’t feel forced to either.
We are a nation that strives to perform the mitzvos. What one generation couldn’t do, is not a sentence for all later generations. 300 years ago it was uncommon for Jews to wear tzitzis all day. But today B”H hundreds of thousands of us are performing this mitzvah d’oraisa to the merit of us all.
Official welcome to the latest screenname of Joseph…AVHABEN
Naftush: It is nice that you have found elements in contemporary Israeli society to praise. But that is not reason enough to loose sight of the ultimate issue.
Walking along many of the streets of the holiest city in the world, one cannot but be struck by the complete lack of tznius that is found there. And if this is true in Yerushalayim, how much more so in Tel Aviv. The two bastions of Israeli society. Even there in our ‘Jewish’ country, on the night of December 31 thousands of Israelis get dressed up (or down really) and rush off to get drunk in celebration of “Silvester” (named for Pope Silvester I).
Yes, there E”Y is a beautiful land. And many Israelis make huge advancements in a number of fields such as medicine and technology. But would you risk releasing your children to a society that places goyish ideology at their helm in the hope that they are not attracted to the evils that lurk around almost every corner? Do you think your teenage son can walk down the streets of Tel Aviv on a summer day and come back to you the same as he left?
There is no reason why secular and traditional and Dati Leumi soldiers should have to bear the brunt for Haredim.
If you don’t want to serve your country in the event of a draft, then leave. Torah is very important, but le ma’aseh, an Uzi is shmira against Arabs shooting rockets into Sderot. G-d helps those who help themselves, which is the entire thrust of the argument of Religious Zionism (that humans act as partners with G-d in affecting geulah)- see R’ Menachem Mendel Kasher’s perush on Shir haShirim.
I wonder if Haredim would serve in the army in the event America had a military draft, or if they would get bogus semichas and yeshiva exemptions, such as what happened during Vietnam.
Derech- the same cutoff that exists for working. When a person can’t learn full time, even if he can learn part time, still it is expected of him to sacrifice learning and get a job. We don’t expect that a part time learner should be supported by the community, even if working full time means sacrificing more learning. So too, if he can’t learn full time, then he has to follow the rules of the society even if it means sacrificing more learning. It’s irrelevant what is more important. An hour of learning is more important than a full time job, but I don’t think it’s acceptable for a person not to work, be a burden on the community so he can learn that extra hour.
Nothing is wrong with it but some prefer their beer out of cans and bottles.
Naftush: The conscientious objection argument is that the war is contrary to halacha, and there is therefore no heter to schecht the Arabs – we,not they, are the rodfim. Medinat Yisrael is, by this argument, not a state founded on the basis of Torah, but a secular western state founded on secular western principles of law. This is at its essence, the Neturei Karta argument.
To those who argue that army is “kosher” – ask why the hilonim aren’t complaining about lack of sexual freedom in the army? Ask why they never complain about all the restrictions they have? Ask how the female soldiers whose abortions are a national scandal managed to get pregnant? Ask why “gays” are quite happy to serve? Compare the percentage of religious zionists in the combat units, to the percentage of religious zionists as senior officers, and explain. The army accomodates Jews who are serious about Yiddishkeit by putting them in the rabbinate or in segregated units (similar to the “Buffalo soldiers” in the American army) – if a frum Jews wants to serve in a normal unit, he is expected to accomodate the hilonius.
Avhaben and KB, how about an answer to my question?
DM, wake up and smell and the cofee!! The reason why all those Chareidim are able to stay in learning is because their bills are paid for by the Israeli taxpayers. The latter do not want to do it anymore and resent the Chareidim twisting their arm into it.
And very much so (they resent it). Derech HaMelech, any comment now? Do you think there may be a shailah of Chillul HaShem ??
DerechHamelech says, “We are a nation that strives to perform the mitzvos.” Are we really, or are we a nation that strives to have the mitzvos perform themselves and that flees from anything that poses a “problem”?
Leyzer,
You wrote, “Why is the Yeshiva velt so opposed to giving anything back to the State of Israel?”, and pba claimed that this showed that you wrote lekanter. You deny that. Fine. But don’t you see that when you write against the chareidi position in such an inflammatory way, it certainly doesn’t lend itself to being perceived as impartial?
Mdd,
Why wasn’t it good enough for you that Derech Hamelech answered your question?
And, “Chillul Hashem”? No, doing the right thing when it seems wrong to people with secular hashkafos is not chillul Hashem. Quite the opposite.
When a certain percent of the non-religious Israelis are forced to learn Torah full-time in Yeshiva in order to protect Klal Yisroel, we will entertain the notion of forcing that same percentage of those in Yeshiva to become full-time soldiers in the Army.
rebdoniel: See Talmud Yerushalmi Chagigah 1:7 that starts
Simcha613: I don’t think you can compare going off to work with joining the army. A person goes off to work and has some say about the environment he chooses to put himself into. If the environment is too physically or spiritually dangerous, he can leave. And most importantly a person who works can become a machzik haTorah retaining his connection to Torah and adding to the Torah that is being learned.
None of those things can be said for someone who joins the army.
mdd: A person with a sick brother who won’t go to the doctor. Do you tell him not to take his brother because his deluded brother will resent him?
Do you keep an eye out for atheists who might see you expressing your identity to a Stone Age religion?
Do you minimize the amount of children you have and send them to public school rather than take money from the government because your and your spouses jobs just aren’t enough and you know what the goyim will think…?
No you don’t. You do what you have to do in the face of others’ erroneous beliefs. Because ultimately, it’s the right thing to do.
Naftush: I really didn’t get the point you were trying to make.
Da’as Yichid, pumping money out of people to support yourself in learning full time when those people strongly object is Chilul HaShem. Imgine, some gevirim support a kollel. Then, they say that they want to cut down on their donations. The kollel members then go to the gevirim houses and say they’re staying there till they give them more money. Any Chilul HaShem there? Some people are trying to be intentionally dense because of their frume negioyos.
Also, Daas Yochid, you did not get my first point. Those people in Lita also wanted to learn. It is just that the Russian government would not pay their bills for them.
Rambam Dayos 6:2
??? ?? ??? ?????? ????????? ????, ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????–??? ????? ?????? ??????, ??????? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????, ??? ????? ??, ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????????? ?????, ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????–???? ???? ?????, ?????? ????? “???? ??? ??????” (???? ?,??). ??? ??? ???? ??????, ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???–???? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????, ?????? ????? “?? ?????? ????? . . .” (?????? ?,?).
mdd: Eretz Yisroel is not the chilonim’s home. Eretz Yisroel is the home of the Bnei Torah and the chilonim are the guests.
Mdd,
Your argument is disingenuous. The charedim (or anyone else) are not permitted to go to work without first doing army service.
Derech HaMelech ,but in this case they are right according to Halochah — they don’t have to support all those people. As far as having children on wellfare — you are wrong. It would be Chilul HaShem. If the Goyim or the frei have a fair and reasonable ta’anah — you have to worry about it. It is the Eretz Yisroeldike with their farfrumed negiyos that are blinded. So you think, those kollel people would be right to go and occupy the gevirim houses till they get more money?
Daas Yochid, you argument is — they could go to Nachal Chareidi.
Avhaben, get back from the dream land. They are the majority who make the money and they feed the Chareidim.
I am a BT. Before I became frum and even after, I used to think highly of the frum E.Yisroeldike. I no longer do.
Depending on definition, one can argue that real Hareidim don’t accept money from the government, and are learning in yeshivos that depend on private donations (often from abroad, as has been the case for centuries). Those who don’t accept zionist money will object the most forcefully to conscription, and their protests will seriously hurt Israel’s international standing, and undermine those hareidim, who for ideological or economic reasons, which to serve in the IDF. One solution might be for the government to stop funding yeshivos directly, allow anyone with any sort of “religious” objection to be exempt from military service (no questions asked), and rely on economic incentives to serve in the army (which for hareidim may be offering to pay for veterans, opening hesder-style programs, etc.). Raiding the yeshivos to drag away talmidim will be a disasterous policy. One should remember that as it is, many benefits of the Israeli welfare state are tied to military service, and this could be expanded. Such a policy suggests the army’s willingness to increase accomodation of hareidim, and in effect to “recruit” rather than conscript.
A Jew is a Jew, a yid is a yid. Saying that secular people are our guests in Israel is just wrong and I can’t believe that the moderators approved that comment.
“benignuman: What you are saying is not entirely true. There was an article here on YWN just a few months ago about a Kol Isha problem that occurred.
Derech HaMelech,
That story was newsworthy precisely because such things are, b”h, very rare in the modern IDF. The IDF today is the not the IDF of the 50s or the 60s. There is no longer an agenda to “frei out” the soldiers.
Your comparison to women covering their hair is astonishing. We pasken there is a chiyuv for married women to cover their hair. The chiyuv of talmud torah does not require “toraso umnuso” but k’viyas itim. No one is saying that the chareidi soldiers should stop learning, chas v’shalom, it just won’t be their only occupation.
Performing the mitzvah of tzitzis does not come at other Jews expense. Learning full time requires other Jews to pay for your living expenses. Furthermore serving in the army is itself a Mitzvah (arguably many mitzvos).
Learning full time requires other Jews to pay for your living expenses.
Being a soldier also requires other Jews to pay for your living expenses.
Learning full time is providing full time protection to other Jews.
I think the question is phrased wrong.
The real question is, Why are the Gedolei Yisroel opposed to the Draft?
Phrasing the question that way would provide a simple ansewer.
The Yeshiva Velt, which by and large are the students of the Gedolei Yisroel, oppose the draft as the Gdolim taught them.
DerechHamelech, Naftush is either a troll or an RZ who’s committed (or ought to be). His belief is that the world isn’t a place to serve Hashem as the gedolim said but a New Age self-discovery seminar where exposing yourself to sakana helps you grow. So by avoiding sakana we’re not really keeping mitzvos, they’re just “keeping themselves.” Therefore, it’s good to serve in the army and be in other treif places. He argued this way a few months ago and got kicked off the forum for it.
Loyal Jew
DerechHamelech, Naftush is either a troll
Pot (or Joe), meet kettle.
avhaben: Eretz Yisroel is not the chilonim’s home. Eretz Yisroel is the home of the Bnei Torah and the chilonim are the guests.
No. Eretz Yisroel is the home of EVERY Jew. So for you to make such a statement is the height of arrogance.
Eretz Yisroel is not the chilonim’s home. Eretz Yisroel is the home of the Bnei Torah and the chilonim are the guests.
No. Eretz Yisroel is the home of EVERY Jew. So for you to make such a statement is the height of arrogance.
Well, I don’t mean to agree with avhaben. But, to push back a bit, the Torah does say that Eretz Yisroel “vomits” people who do certain aveiros. Which is what happened to the people who lived there before us, and to us.
So you would be pretty justified in saying that Eretz Yisroel is the home of the shomrei torah u’mitzvos.
Ben Levi: “I think the question is phrased wrong.
The real question is, Why are the Gedolei Yisroel opposed to the Draft?”
Answer: 1) The conscription of yeshiva students is opposed by almost all hareidi gedolim since learning Torah is more important than being a soldier, and learning Torah is the key to Jewish survival, especially in Eretz Yisrael. 2) The conscription of hareidim who are not learning full time is opposed by most gedolim since the army engages in systematic coercion aimed at forcing draftees to be substantially less frum in the hope that they will leave the hareidi community and become part of the mainstream of Israeli society – this leads to many hareidim who want to be baal ha-battim who probably would gladly serve if they felt the army welcomed them staying in yeshiva and working “under the table”. — 3) Anti-zionist gedolim oppose military service since the feel the medinah is treff, regardless of whether an individual is learning and regardless of accomodation of a Torah lifestyle.
These are three separate issues. Even if the army were glatt kosher (meaning all units were strictly Shomer Shabbos, strict in kashruth, no pritsus, no sexual harassment or sexual exploitation, no issues with immodest dress, etc.), and even if there were no shailohs about the halachic status of the medinah – the gedolim would want the professional students to learn full time. And as long as the medinah is not replaced by a Malchus Beis Dovid with a Sanhedrin with smicha and a Kohen Gadol with Urim V’Tumin to decide matters of war and peace- the anti-zionist gedolim will oppose army service.
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