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K’mat all the shidduchim I can think of offhand were arranged by family, friends, colleagues, neighbors, friends of friends, friends of neighbors, friends of colleagues, the teacher, the rebbi, the rov, an acquaintance, an in-law, an in-laws relative, et cetera. All non-professional shadchanim. Why do some folks keep carping about shadchanim, how insidious they are, how unhelpful they are, not returning calls, in for the buck, setting people up with way off target matches, et cetera.
Who needs ’em? The best shidduchim come from the non-professionals.
We need everybody. Why would we reduce the pool of Shadchanim, whether the “heimish” neighbor or professional with a system, especially when many complain they’re not getting suggestions?
And how many friends of a friend would do the legwork for say a Transatlantic shidduch? Or for the older guy/girl that’s very sensitive and may stop talking to the so called Shadchan if he/she becomes offended? Many times people think of a Shidduch and refer it to someone more “professional” because they can’t be bothered or don’t fee competent. And there are many shades of grey between so called professionals and say the teacher that dabbles in Shidduchim.
The best shidduchim come from the non-professionals.
Define “best”.
the real shadchan “mezaveig zivuggim” is Hashem & these human shadchanim are just his agents & Hashem chose this to be their parnassa. They have a personality of matching people up based on various things that they get on resume’s. From personalities to different enjoyments people do in their free time etc….
Most?best.
Who needs (“professional”) Shadchanim, anyways? Not people who enjoy their computers and flock to sites like Orthodate & Jwed.
Are Orthodate & Jwed amateur?
Who needs ’em? The best shidduchim come from the non-professionals.
1. They are part of the hishtadlut that we must do.
2. If they are in business, then clearly they are making .
money. That means they are needed by some part of the market.
3. They may be helpful for those who are outside the normal. For example, living far away, special needs, etc.
Some people benefit greatly from the services of a professional shadchan, and others do not. There is a market out there for them, and we never know from where a shidduch will come. That said, my three married children all met their zivugim on their own, in HASC, in college, and from our neighborhood.
I met one of my future machetenistas when our kids were toddlers, never dreaming we would end up related. We had sons in the same Yeshiva. I liked her right away, and though we lost touch, 20 years later our children met on their own and married. Be nice to EVERYONE you meet. They may be your relatives someday.
That’s the only reason you can come up with for being nice to EVERYONE you meet?
Scared Driver…uh… clearly not the ONLY reason. I was
jus’ sayin’…
the professionals don’t really know the parties involved and have a ‘business’ investment in the shidduch even if it is just a smidgen in the back of their hearts. That hardly compares to a friend, neighbor or relative who knows you, sees a possible connection and wants to see you married because s/he cares personally about you.
The shidduch resume is not “you”. It is a souped up brochure made to advertise you like a piece of real estate. If i read thirty resumes and then meet thirty girls i would doubt i could match them up (especially if they all cut and pasted from the same friends). But if you talk to thirty close friends or relatives, you will be able to spot the subject a good portion of the time.
If you want a professional, feel free, but people shouldnt act like it is sacrilegious to not want one. it doesn’t mean we are meeting people in pool halls. it means we are also using shadchanim but we feel more secure about the suggestion and the sincerity of the presentation.
and if you doubt it, go ask a professional shadchan how she presents someone who has alot of so called flaws. She can tell you how she polishes it up a bit, changes small facts as appropriate etc. They will not deny it. its a sales pitch. i’m not buying a car. they tell girls who dont like make up to wear it anyway. they tell them to wear certain styles even if it isn’t comfortable for them. I heard a shadchan once insist a girl dye her (minute amount of)grey hairs. It’s like a horse show. But if YOU do NOT feel that way, then continue on. It is just irritating to hear the odd implications that it’s “unyeshivish” or invalid.
I think, as MDG and Oomis pointed out, there is obviously a need for professional shadchanim, otherwise they wouldn’t exist. I agree that a shidduch proposed by someone who knows both sides has a better chance of success than if the shadchan knows neither or only one party, but sometimes those suggestions just aren’t being made.
Joseph, do you agree that there is some type of implication that such a shidduch is unyeshivish or somehow invalid? I don’t; I’ve never heard such a claim.
good point, if you never heard it it must not have happened. thank you, as always, for being so diligent in negating most of my comments.
I apologize.
Hi Syag! I always enjoy reading your posts, so forgive me for daring to join in the fray-
I understood you were saying that meeting through suggestions of family members and friends is often more productive in the long term, and enjoyable in the short term. And I have to agree.
But I don’t know how Joseph knows that “most marriages come from non-professional rather than professional shadchanim”. Have we done a scientific study? Or are we working under the influence of gut feelings and anecdotal evidence? (If yes- bad idea.)
And I think what bothered DY, and admittedly myself as well, was your statement that it’s “just irritating to hear the odd implications that it’s ‘unyeshivish’ or invalid” to meet without a professional shadchan. Who ever implied or said out right or made mention of such an idea? Here in the CR or out in the real world?
In fact it’s common practice to have relatives or acquaintances redt a shidduch, even in very Chassidish or Yeshivish circles. (You may get a different response when the two parties meet on their own. And don’t get me wrong- I personally am not casting aspersions, slinging mud, or otherwise denigrating or belittling ANYBODY! Just saying it’s not common practice in some circles…)
I also wanted to (hesitantly, bem’chilas k’vodaich) comment on the wicked shadchan who suggested that a young lady color her grey hair. It’s not really a horse show. But there is (unfortunately? or realistically? please choose an adverb you find applicable) a similarity. At a horse show, part of the criteria involve the good looks of the horses. When a man and woman are deciding to spend their lives together, one of the criteria (that you cannot remove from the equation no matter how far in the sand you choose to bury your head) is the attraction they feel for each other based on how they look.
The determination of what lengths a person wishes to go to in the way they present themselves is different for each individual:
Wear make up? don’t want to? neatly pressed shirt tucked in? ketchup stains? high heels? polished shoes? designer silk? polyester? false eyelashes? nothing false whatsoever? You decide.
But if a brave and well-meaning shadchan, friend, or maybe even parent, tries to make a suggestion, please don’t be upset. And, as mentioned, the final decision of how to dress up (or dress down) is for the young man or woman to make on their own.
I am definitely NOT suggesting that people should choose whom to marry based solely on appearance. What I am suggesting is that it’s equally foolish to pretend that appearance doesn’t matter at all, or to refuse to put oneself forward in a pleasing manner, or to take offense when a suggestion is made in that area.
My apologies.
I don’t usually belabor the CR with such long posts.
Perhaps we can simplify as follows:
If you go out and when the other party gets a whiff then they think they’re at horse show, you won’t win any prize.
Hi, golfer. I really appreciate your attempt to make peace. That’s very nice of you. I hope that Syag and Joseph appreciate it, too.
Syag, it’s a pity you’ve chosen to ‘drastically cut down on [your] posting’ because of responses you’ve received. I’ve also cut back on my posting because of the snarkiness of the comments that followed (and because I have dial-up, so a lot of the time it’s too painful to bother with posting).
And weighing in on shadchanim: If they suggest doing something that really doesn’t reflect your true self (like the shadchan who told me to wear colored tights), that’s one thing. It’s when they try to bully you into doing something that really doesn’t reflect your true self (like the shadchan who told me to wear shorter skirts), that’s another thing.
I’m married 17 years KA”H and those shadchans still upset me when I think about it.
I had heard about a prominent shadchan in Lakewood that he has made over 200 shidduchim. While that is very impressive, he meets hundreds (if not thousands) of boys and girls every year. I know he’s only one person, but if that is the amount of success of one of the most well-known shadchanim out there, then the majority of shidduchim are most likely not being made by professional shadchanim.
There are many shadchanim that have been extremely successful, and we can not take that away. but many of these shidduchim that were made were not thought of by that shadchan, someone suggested it to them, and the shadchan took it further.
Once they become famous for making so many shidduchim, it is easier for them to get yesses from the boy or girls parents because they have that name already and are considered such a successful shadchan.
if you need a personal explanation in order to retract calling someone a sonei yisroel, and none of my years of posting proves that already, then the problem is not with me.
I did not mean to imply in any way that you are a soneh Yisroel. I thought we were disagreeing about certain behaviors and how common they are and what the motivations are.
I don’t think you are a soneh Yisroel, and I am truly sorry for giving that impression.
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