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Who, in your opinion, are the five most likely candidates (alive today) that Moshiach is likely to be one of?
Joseph
Joseph
Joseph
Joseph
Joseph
<sarcasm> Looks like ZD clearly hit the nail on the head and there is nothing else to talk about here. <sarcasm>
Menachem
Shilo
Yinon
Chanina
Sorry, only came up with 4.
Isn’t it obvious?
My husband
My son
My other son
My nephew
My other nephew
Not sure why that was even a question, but I’m happy to clarify it for everyone.
I stand corrected.
WinnieThePooh and I. M. Shluffin brought in some serious competition.
Are we talking about Mashiach ben Yosef or Mashiach ben David? I heard from a rav once that Mashiach ben Yosef doesn’t need necessarily need to be a direct father to son descendant from Yosef haTzadik (i.e. he could be of matralinial descent) but I don’t know a source on the inside for this.
As far as Mashiach ben David we know he needs to be a direct patralinial descendant of David HaMelech so let’s look at who has a mesorah for that. Rav Daniel Glattstein said a few days ago in a TorahAnytime shiur that Rashi was a direct descendant (and apparently he’s a direct descendant of Rashi so I guess he’s a candidate!) – so anyone who can trace father to son back to Rashi.
The Baal Shem Tov, Rebbe Nachman m’Breslov, and the Maggid m’Mizritch also were direct descendants so somebody who could trace lineage back to them would be in the running as well. Rav Yosef Shlomo Dayan came from a large Syrian family in which they apparently had documents recording their family back to David Hamelech as well. As he never married he didn’t have any children though I believe he had a lot of relatives.
These are the ones that come off the top of my head – is anyone else familiar with a lineage like these?
Davidic Dynasty dot org researches Davidic families.
If you think you’re lineage goes back to David HaMelech, you can submit your family tree to them for verification.
They also have a list of last names associated with Davidic lineage. Unfortunately they faimed to put Joseph on the list. Assuming his name is Joseph Joseph.
Assurnet – there are many families and many thousands of descendants of Rashi alive today. I am descended from two of his daughters – as I said, like many thousands of others. The challenge for those looking for a Messianic descent from Rashi is that Rashi had three daughters (Yocheved, Miriam, and Rachel) and no sons. Thus descent from Rashi, while most likely Davidic through Rav Yochanan HaSandlar, can not be father to son.
On the other hand, there are significantly fewer, but still many who claim descent from Rav Shmuel Ben Natronai, son in law of the RAVaN (R Eliezer ben Natan).
The name Natronai is of unquestionable Babylonian origin, and associated with the family of the Resh Galuta, who had patrilineal descent from David Hamelech.
The Otzar Hagedolim brings the tradition of a deposed Resh Galuta named Natronai exiled and appearing in Southwestern France in the Lunel/Narbonne area several generations – about 200 years earlier, and Binyomin of Tudela wrote of visiting Narbonne where (I’m quoting) the “Zerah Hakedosha” resides at about the time of R’ Shmuel’s father. So it isn’t definitive, but likely, that this name Natronai (extremely rare in Europe) belonged to a father to son descendant of David Hamelech.
“so anyone who can trace father to son back to Rashi.”
You’ll have a problem tracing anything to Rashi’s sons, as he only had daughters.
Joseph, I can see what you’re thinking, but as far as I understand Moshiach is someone who one wouldn’t expect it to be. Much like Dovid HaMelech being crowned was a huge surprise even to his own family. So, perhaps ZD’s prediction is more accurate than yours.
according to the chasam sofer, moshiach won’t be an obvious living tzadik but rather a dark horse type. he says that the geula is supposed to be like yetzias mitzrayim. moshe wasn’t the obvious person. after all, he was an egyptian prince, king of ethiopia and married a shiksa. thats moshiach? so keep your eyes open.
Thank you theprof1.
good point all on Rashi’s daughters – totally forgot about that.
As far as coming from undistinguished lineage, although Moshe rabbeinu was raised in pharo’s house, he also was the son of Amram who seemed to be one of if not the preeminent gadol hador at the time. So even if mashiach’s background will mirror that of Moshe Rabbeinu’s, coming from distinguished lineage isn’t necessarily a stirah.
I heard a shiur from a ben Torah named Moshe Scwerd who is very careful with his sources saying that when Hashem picks Moshiach, it will be person who will be shocked to find out that he is “it’-in line what assurnet is saying. So Reb Schwerd surmised, if you think your child, husband, cousin , etc is Moshiach, chances are he’s NOT. Sorry IM Shluffin!
??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???–?? ???? ??? ???? ????, ?? ?????: ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???????. ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ??? ???? ???????; ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???. ??? ?? ????, ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??????, ???? ???.
?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???; ??? ????? ????–????? ?????? ?? ???? ????, ??? ???? ????. ??? ?? ???? ??????; ???? ?????, ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ???????.
🙂
I would think it would be my son, but then we’ll have to wait a really long time, c”v, since he hasn’t been born yet.
Maybe one of my nephews – we wouldn’t have to wait as long, but we’d still have to wait. I imagine that Moshiach has to be able to walk and talk.
This thread title should have started with, SPOILER ALERT
I’m volunteering…
I had a student who told me that she thought was Moshiach for 5 years – from the age of 7 until 12. When she was 12, she told her parents that she “was coming” and then she got really depressed when she didn’t and her parents had to send her to therapy.
Joseph – lol, apparently so.
I was once shmoozing with my friend’s kids about who could be Moshiach, and I asked my friend’s 5 year old if she knows why I can’t be Moshiach. She answered, “because you sleep over at other people’s houses (on Shabbos)”
I was kind of offended by that reasoning. But apparently, she also didn’t realize that Moshiach has to be a man.
LU: If her response was, “because you sleep over at other people’s houses (on Shabbos),” IMHO that’s a very very good thing.
IME, Five year olds will tell you everything.
Everything that they think
Everything that their parents say
Everything that they heard
Whatever
If the worst thing that you do in this child’s eyes is sleep over at someone else’s house, which is strange maybe because it’s not like mommy and daddy sleep over at strangers’ houses so why is LU here and maybe that means whatever it is because she is different [which is based on her observations as a child understanding this great universe], then if you weren’t a girl, I’d say that you might have a good shot at being Moshiach 🙂
Joseph – lol. I think you meant “worse than being a woman”.
I was a bit offended – it sounded like she thinks I’m a nebach case because I go to people’s houses for Shabbos. Not that I particularly care what a 5 year old thinks.
Anyhow, I’m glad that you think that being female is less bad than going to people’s houses for Shabbos. 🙂
<speechless>
Listened to a shiur today on TorahAnytime. The rabbi said that Moshiach is not going to be someone expected, as posters mentioned here.
He specified that Moshiach is not going to be coming straight out of Lakewood or anything.
So any potential Moshiach’s should probably move out of Lakewood once they get on the straight path.
OR… Hashem made it so that the rabbi would say this and so it will be shocking when Moshiach comes out of Lakewood.
Like opposite day. Which one is it? Too much thinking. Eeeks.
So it’s a good thing I moved out of Lakewood. Now I can be Moshiach 🙂
Actually, I doubt the Rav meant that literally. It was just his way of saying that it won’t be someone obvious. Your Rabbi actually couldn’t possibly know what city Moshiach lives in.
R Akiva thought Bar Kochva was Mashiach and not one of the other Tanaim. It doesn’t sound like the Mashiach will be one of the Gedolei Hador.
simcha613 -“R Akiva thought Bar Kochva was Mashiach and not one of the other Tanaim. It doesn’t sound like the Mashiach will be one of the Gedolei Hador”
He probably thought he was Moshiach Ben Yosef, but not Moshiach Ben Dovid. Because Ben Yosef will wage the war and Ben Dovid will be the king!
There is more than one moshiach?
The world will who.. when that time comes
????=138=???
Since the early Roman occupation of Northern Israel, countless Jewish women were taken and forced into marriage with Roman soldiers. It is impossible to quantify how many descendants of David have no recollection or record of the lineage that they hold. Human record-keeping and genealogist will not be able to qualify who can or cannot be a descendant of David. Certain miracles will prove ancestral relation to David without the need of human logic or research. Certain things must be done to make way for the Moshiac…
First of all, and most important, all secular and non practicing Jews must return to Hashem with a full and complete heart towards repentance and Tshova. Without committing to repent with a truthful return back to Hashem, Moshiach will not come.The Midrash says he was born of Tisha Beov.
David08271977: In order to be from the Davidic line, a Jew must have Jewish paternity directly back to Dovid HaMelech. That would exclude any Jews with non-Jewish grandfathers.
regarding Moshiach ben Yosef. Arent there some who dont hold that there will be ben Yosef only Ben Dovid? Also I read in a book on ARIZAL that he told the Chaveirim that they should pray Moshiach ben Yosef shouldnt die in their generation and that soon after they realized it was referring to himself and they werent zoche?
Regarding Moshiach ben Yosef, I recall during the 2006 Lebanon war that Ariel Sharon started to move in a way that was absent during the previous six months of his coma. To this day I still think it possible that if Israel had declared all out war on hezbolah that Ariel would have woken up and led us as Moshiach ben Yosef.
The following was printed in the NYTimes Week in Review Aug 6, 2006:
“TOWARD the end of last month, well into Israel’s war with the Lebanese militia Hezbollah, Ariel Sharon suddenly seemed to shudder.”The reason we need Moshiach ben Yosef because Easov can only fall into Yosef’s hands.
As far as I know, there is no halachik criteria for moshiach been yosef, so we have no exact definitive definition of who he will be . The Rambam lays out clear Halachik criteria how to identify Moshiach ben Dovid. Whoever fullfils those criteria will have the Halachik status of moshiach. As far as I am concerned Moshiach could be someone like Rabbi Amnon Yitzchok, although I hope not 😊. In any case, as long as he comes soon.
The reason that Aesov will fall into Yosef’s hand because that when Aesov complains that Yaakov did not deal with him properly, Yosef answers that my brothers also didn’t deal with me properly but I did not repay them.
Aesov comes with his zachus of honoring his father but Yosef sacrificed himself even at the sight of danger, knowing that his brothers might kill him, when his father commanded him to go to Doson.“David08271977: In order to be from the Davidic line, a Jew must have Jewish paternity directly back to Dovid HaMelech. That would exclude any Jews with non-Jewish grandfathers.”
A son or a great grandson or “offspring” of King David cannot defined through modern genealogy. Documents and letters, which is the only real proof of lineage can only be traced back several hundred years. Everything else is obscured by time. For this reason, just carrying a name will not be suffice with oral tradition because adoption other ancestral issues. That is why I believe certain miracles will be proof enough that someone is the son of David.
Not me. I pity any world in which I am Moshiach.
The Wolf
David08271977: I was only refuting the point you made in your initial comment regarding children of Jewish mothers and non-Jewish fathers.
Eli Y, what makes you think it is possible that Moshiach will not be a frum Jew?
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