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As a med prof., I’m taught not to condem, but to empathize. Smokers whatever you did till now -you can still stop. We have a two-pronged approach. We will prescribe medications and send you for therapy. It’s never too late to quit!
I’m taught not to condem, but to empathize
Care to practice that here, too?
For anyone who likes to point out that their parent who smokes is a tzaddik in all other ways, and I totally believe you, substitute alchohol for the smoking addiction. No matter how wonderful that parent may have been all your life, would you defend alcoholism the same way? We are not impugning their niceness, or kindness or ability to face edversity. We are arguing that if they truly love their families to the best of their ability, they would love them AND themselves enough, to QUIT SMOKING. This is a vice that physically affects not only the one who does it, but all those around him/her. It EMOTIONALLY devastates the loved ones who have to live with the aftermath and pain of the damage the smoking does to the smoker, when they die a slow and painful death from lung cancer or emphsyema, stomach, or bladder cancer. There is no justifying this easily preventable tragedy. Those who “smoke three packs a day until they are 90 and die peacefully in their sleep, of old age,” are the VERY rare exception. Maybe they would have lived to 120, had they not smoked.
I do speculate the government is involved here, they are let go certain Things which they do advertising on their danger (for instance, cooking with Trans fat in the lunch rooms etc. that is regulated).Therefore people who are influenced from the Government, are getting confused on the concept of Danger.Very possible. No?
For anyone who likes to point out that their parent who smokes is a tzaddik in all other ways, and I totally believe you, substitute alchohol for the smoking addiction. No matter how wonderful that parent may have been all your life, would you defend alcoholism the same way?
But oomis, in all fairness- smoking is not mind-altering. Alcoholism is. An alcoholic parent is impaired in a way that a smoking parent is not.
ppl are still smoking for the same reason ur still working on ur middos. and if ur not, then for the same reason u cant break ur bad middos.
inconclusive evidence of that”
Sorry, Squeak, but with respect, I believe you are mistaken. They have conclusively linked cancer in many non-smokers, to their exposure to someone else’s smoking. And pediatricians will tell you that more children in smoking households come in for repeat checkups for URIs than those in non-smoking households.
Squeak -“Care to practice that here, too?”
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
not to mention exacerbation of asthma symptoms…
oomis-
I am not stating that I do not think second-hand smoke is deadly- I most definitely do. But the studies have not proved that yet, so it is not incontrovertible.
I was lucky. My mother smoked until I was 14, and I was so disgusted by the habit, that I never really had the urge to even try that. I took two puffs on a cigarette in college, and it was enough for my entire life.
Some people can maintain their weight easily, others have a great deal of trouble maintaining and find it almost impossible to lose weight. Frequently, it is not because they are weak or lack willpower, but it is because it IS HARDER FOR THEM.
The same is true with cigarettes. I think those that can easily give them up gave them up long ago. Those that can give them up with moderate difficulty did a little later. Many of those who are still hooked by demon nicotine have a serious addiction.
Remember — putting them down doesn’t help their situation at all. Try compassion and support.
Granted that for many people stopping smoking is hard, – VERY hard, – EXTREMELY hard.
Question: If, chalila, you had a very sick child, and it was going to be extremely, extremely hard to get him or her the medical care they needed to save their life, would you say “Oh forget it, it’s just way too hard!” – OR would no effort be too great for you to make to overcome the obstacles to get your child that refuah?
Quitting smoking is VERY hard for you – I DO believe you.
BUT – You say you love your family? Then DO IT ANYWAY!!!
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
You certainly are free to opine and disagree with others, I was referring to how you choose to do so. The trick that you learned as a med prof. is just as appropriate in a non-professional setting. Treating people respectfully shouldn’t depend on being paid to do so.
first of all, why do people still smoke? for the same reason everyone does aveiros- what you dont SEE as affecting you in a bad, possibly deadly, way, but on the outside it is enjoyable, you won’t be able to stop, even if someone who you know is smarter or more experienced than you and they tell you to stop. im not giving excuses to smokers- i think its a horrible habit, im just saying, aren’t you sortve doing the same thing whenever you do an aveira? and if you say it doesn’t affect those around you- it does, every aveira affects the whole world
second of all, for those of you saying that us non-smokers are jealous- that’s a little sickening to even think that, im sorry
and lastly, for those of you who said that rebbeim should do a little more to stop smoking among yeshiva bochurim, i had a rebbe in elementary school who was very passionate about it and didnt try to hide anything about the dangers- i personally think he had a major affect on all of us in his class and another rebbe that i am very close with, if he sees bochurim, even if he doesnt know who they are, he goes over to them and tries to convince them to stop, in a VERY nice way, and even though this doesn’t bring a rayah to all yeshivas, you should know that there are those out there who do care
oomis1105:
“For anyone who likes to point out that their parent who smokes is a tzaddik in all other ways, and I totally believe you, substitute alchohol for the smoking addiction. No matter how wonderful that parent may have been all your life, would you defend alcoholism the same way?”
I don’t think the two are comparable. An alcoholic will often abuse his/her loved ones (if only with negligence), while smokers do not.
That said, there is a very good reason for not wanting others to smoke. It’s fairly simple:
U’shmartem mioed es nafshosaichem
+
Kol yisroel areivim zeh la’zeh
=
Caring if fellow jews smoke.
Sqeak:
“You certainly are free to opine and disagree with others, I was referring to how you choose to do so. The trick that you learned as a med prof. is just as appropriate in a non-professional setting. Treating people respectfully shouldn’t depend on being paid to do so.”
Well said, couldn’t agree more. might I add that people will often be more open to your way of thinking if you treat them with respect.
I don’t think the two are comparable. An alcoholic will often abuse his/her loved ones (if only with negligence), while smokers do not.”
Smokers DO abuse their families. The tragedy is that they might not recognize the abuse they are inflicting until a family member comes down with a respiratory ailment. The other abuse they inflict is the tzaar they cause their loved ones as they slowly die from their self-inflicted lung cancer, emphysema, stomach cancer, throat cancer, and lip and tongue cancer. If you do not believe that this abusive behavior, there is nothing to talk about. And lest you compare it to people who die from overweight issues, at least the obese are not causing their family and friends to “catch” an illness from them. In some cases, yes, you will see wight problems in a family, but it is a reversible machlah. Once smoking has done its damage,there is not much to do about it, except suffer and die a slow and painful death.
For anyone who likes to point out that their parent who smokes is a tzaddik in all other ways
I wasn’t defending my mother’s smoking. As much as I love my mother, I will NEVER do that. I was simply objecting to posters looking at one thing she does wrong and labeling her as a “moron” and a “selfish fool” without looking at the entire picture.
The Wolf
If a bochur arrived for an interview at a kollel/yeshiva, he would be told that if he chose to one day to dress in jeans and a tee shirt, it would be considered unaceptable and he would be sent home and be subject to dismisal. Why not do the same with smoking? The easiest way to stop smoking is to not start.
In addition, how can a bochur sitting and learning afford cigarettes?
Any girl or their parents in the parsha of Shuduchim should make it absolutely clear that they will not be interested in anyone who smokes or had a history or smoking.
A campaign like this hopefully will make these so called “Men” think twice about smoking.
Any girl or their parents in the parsha of Shuduchim should make it absolutely clear that they will not be interested in anyone who smokes or had a history or smoking.
I agree. We already got the boys to do a similar campaign regarding being overweight, and it was very successful.
It is even easier with smoking because there is no smoking equivalent of anorexia, so there is no side risk.
oomis1105:
“If you do not believe that this abusive behavior, there is nothing to talk about.”
Then this conversation is pretty much over. Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
lesschumras:
“If a bochur arrived for an interview at a kollel/yeshiva, he would be told that if he chose to one day to dress in jeans and a tee shirt, it would be considered unaceptable and he would be sent home and be subject to dismisal. Why not do the same with smoking?”
Many, if not most, yeshivos do just that.
I can not stand people that smoke. Whenever I see a yeshiva bachur with nice Middos, learning sincerely etc I “shep nachas.” However, the second he takes out a cigarette, my entire image of him chenged.
I feel like screaming to these guys: “Good luck finding shidduchim because there aren’t that many girls out there who are interested in marrying a smoker!!”
My parents are both smokers and they are definitely not morons. It’s wrong that they smoke and they’ve tried to stop, but this is just one fault which is outweighed by many incredible maalos. I don’t think the word “moron” is appropriate here.
Whenever I see a yeshiva bachur with nice Middos, learning sincerely, etc, I “shep nachas.” However, the second he takes out a cigarette, my entire image of him changes.
Well, maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe you should use that to change your image of smokers. Why do you let your mental image of smokers change your view of people, in the face of evidence that good normal people, who learn torah and have good middos, do smoke.
popa_bar_abba-i cant. I know too much about the dangers of smoking, that when I see a cigarette in a “eshiv bachur’s” hand, he image of a real bachuris erased. In my mind, a cigarette in one hand and a Gemara in the other dont go hand in hand.
AinOhdMilvado,
You talk to me as if I am a chainsmoker… but I am not a smoker. I just agree with Popa that we don’t need to be angry at them. Let everyone make his/her own choice (popa and tanta, please don’t start the he/she stuff again)
A Mishna states that a woman has grounds for divorce if her husband takes a job as a flax worker. The reason given is because of the smell from his job.
The same should apply to someone married to a smoker since the smell is revolting, its on their hair, skin and clothes not to mention that second hand smoke is a danger to their wives and children.
How inconsiderate a person must be to expose his wife and children to all this.
Maybe I should put this on the thread that asks for bumper stickers. I saw one that put this issue this bluntly…
SMOKING IS FILTHY, DISGUSTING, AND SELFISH THING TO DO.
i know nthis is an old thread. i think its kidei to mention something. smoking is dumb. theres a good chance it will kill you. comparisons to artery clogging fatty foods are dumb, and i think that is self understood. however, the questionisnt all that valid. cigarettes are addictive; physically, emotionally, physcologically. no-one will get up and tell you its right. but quitting takes literally super human effort. so if someone is still smoking its understandable. not good- but understandable. calling them morons and abusive is unfair. smoking is not a deciding factor on whether a person is good or not. if you have never been addicted and tried to quit you CANNOT understand what theyre going through. cut them some slack and stop hating. at least its not something directly harmful to their neshama. and to make shidduchim harder for boys on purpose, such as a policy that even if he smoked five years ago and quit, my daughter still wont go out with him, is achzoriyus. he saw the error of his ways and quit- give the guy a break. maybe go break his legs cuz he used to smoke? and another thing- theres a difference between wanting to quit and knowing you need to for whatever reason but not actually desiring to stop smoking. if you dont want to quit- just your doctor tells you to, you still love the cigarette and you wont be able to. if you have a tangible reason now why to quit its way easier. exhale.
Toi – I’m not Haifagirl, but could you at least have some basic grammar like Capitalization and no run on sentences. The purpose of posting is for others to hear and Understand your point of view. The way you post makes this very difficult! If you can’t improve, please refrain from wasting everybody’s time -trying over and over to decipher your gibberish. Thank you!
“at least its not something directly harmful to their neshama.”
Since as a far as I know, e/o holds it’s Ossur including Rav Moshe who says it’s Ossur to start -smoking will definitely effect your Neshoma!
“if you dont want to quit- just your doctor tells you to, you still love the cigarette and you wont be able to.”
Yes, this is true. But this isn’t what everybody claims. They all state -“I really want to quit”. They aren’t being honest with themselves. They have to own up to the fact that they really DON’T want to quit! If they really wanted to, they would! And I’ve posted many times here in the CR -how to!
Check out the book “the easy way to stop smoking” (Allen Carr) and you’ll be informed that smoking is one thing only. A drug addiction. Nicotine is a drug and is more addictive than marijuana. After the first ciggarette ur body want more. It never “craved one before u started” and that’s the biggest proof there’s no inherent fain in smoking. Calms u down? Did it calm u down before u started? No, but now when ur stressed out and at the same time nicotine is slowly leaving ur body, so ur doubly stressed and u have a smoke, takes away the need for nicotine but ur still left with whatever stree u had before. Great book for anyone trying to stop. Its compare to putting on a really tight shoe and saying wow it feels great when I take it off and u put back on so u can remove it to feel good, crazy hhuh? Well same with cigarettes. You smoke when ur body craves it to get rid of the need which u created for urself.
Thanks for bumping. This thread is awesome. I’ll quote my favorite post.
Any girl or their parents in the parsha of Shuduchim should make it absolutely clear that they will not be interested in anyone who smokes or had a history or smoking.
I agree. We already got the boys to do a similar campaign regarding being overweight, and it was very successful.
It is even easier with smoking because there is no smoking equivalent of anorexia, so there is no side risk.
My 5 year old saw someone he likes smoking and told him “I’m sure you dont know that smoking is dangerous but my zaidy had to have an operation because he smoked”.
My friend’s 5 year old saw someone he likes who was overweight. He said “I’m sure you don’t know that being overweight is dangerous, but my zeidy had to have a quadruple bypass surgery because he ate too much.
Hi Jam,
I the world at large and in our community, people smoke because they started and are addicted.
Another variable, seemingly in our community only, is pure ignorance.
I cannot tell you how many people in our community will argue that smoking is really ok and helps them to relax and is not so bad because its the only “bad: thing they do.
At least in the outside world they admit they should quit, have tried numerous times, and that it will probably kill them.
Not only that, but there is evidence that from the first puff, permanent genetic mutations can take place that can chas veshalom affect the smokers children to be born at some time in the future.
I just dont get it. Smoking, (even more than texting and internet), should be declared a sakana; period! Kosher phone; kosher mind;…… kosher body!
There is a big difference between smoking and being overweight, though both can cause heart attacks. The smoker can physically damage innocent other people who do NOT smoke, while enjoying his habit. The overweight person, while certainly indulging in a dangerous practices, only PHYSICALLY harms himself/herself, though the family suffers emotionally if something happens to that person such as a stroke or heart attack. Actually, I am going to contradict myself here, as I have thought better of it. If a mother is overweight, there is a greater incidence of obesity in the children, as well, because she is generally preparing the meals and setting the nutritional tone in the household. So overweight actually can have a direct bearing on the physical well-being of others.
My grandfather started smoking at a stressful time in his life. He stopped three months later, when his father developed emphysema from a lifetime of breathing in SECOND-HAND smoke at his workplace.
Kal vechomer….
Hi Health.
While literally one can quit smoking any time. The implications that at any time it would all good to quit, is not a good recommendation.
Someone does not have forever to quit, so to speak. There is a point where it would be chas veshalom too late.
And telling an addicted person something where they feel they can procrastinate a bit alluding to the point there is “always” time, is misleading and not so correct, and actually feeds into the addicts inclination to postpone quitting.
The message should be to quit now. Even if that message has to be repeated later, and later again. ….quit now.
popa, I like your posts, but your analogy of obesity doesn’t work. I’ll give you 2 reasons right now. Then, after you’ve spent your energy trying to discredit my reasons, I’ll force you to start over again by giving you more.
1. Obesity is harder to hide. Plenty of girls marry smokers unwittingly, name me one guy who didn’t find out until sheva brochos that he married a fatty.
2. I saved this one for second because I know you’ll like it. The guys’ campaign is only successful up to the chuppah plus ~6 months. So unless you are advocating that part of the girls’ campaign is to allow every husband to start smoking one the first child is on the way….
I’ll give you 2 reasons right now. Then, after you’ve spent your energy trying to discredit my reasons, I’ll force you to start over again by giving you more.
I was thinking of wasting your initial effort, by not responding at all. But then I thought of this:
Obesity is harder to hide. Plenty of girls marry smokers unwittingly, name me one guy who didn’t find out until sheva brochos that he married a fatty.
When Avraham Avinu looked at Sarah for the first time on the way down to Mitzrayim, he said ??? ?????. Imagine, until then he was afraid she was really fat! Why didn’t he just ask her?
No shaychus. Pre campaign.
Pre campaign.
Odom put chava on a diet and told her not to eat from two of the trees.
BTguy -“Hi Health.While literally one can quit smoking any time. The implications that at any time it would all good to quit, is not a good recommendation.
Someone does not have forever to quit, so to speak. There is a point where it would be chas veshalom too late.
And telling an addicted person something where they feel they can procrastinate a bit alluding to the point there is “always” time, is misleading and not so correct, and actually feeds into the addicts inclination to postpone quitting.”
I’m actually amazed at your post. You say things I never posted and then you make implications from these words that I never uttered & then you critcize me on these things. Do you do this to e/o or just me???????
Why do people do stupid things?
That is a very valid question from an intelligent persons point of view.
the answer is, not all crazy people are stupid, but all stupid people do crazy things.
The question is not why, the question is WHAT.
Hi Health.
I am glad you found my post amazing. I appreciate that.
As a reminder, you made such a statement, but it was about a year ago on this thread.
I have to go now…..
lol
I have never met a person who quit smoking who didn’t truly want and decide to quit; and I have never (yet) met a smoker who truly wanted to and decided to quit, and then failed.
I don’t smoke (anymore) BTW.
I don’t appreciate the manipulation of numbers that anti-smokers use to try to influence mass behavior, even if some of it is true.
A correlation between a behavior and a higher incidence rate of a disease does not prove that the behavior causes the disease.
A smoker is more statistically likely to get heart disease.
That does not mean that a smoker who got heart disease got it from smoking – heart disease is common among non-smokers. Same with stroke.
Another point – “Smokers are 20 times more likely to get lung cancer,” vs. “Non-Smokers have a 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer” The CDC said the first one, I said the second one (based on info from the CDC). Both are true.
I can turn it around. Someone who quits smoking has an 80% likelihood of gaining weight. Perhaps it is healthier to smoke.
Remember, figures can’t lie but liars can figure. Trying to maximize the emotional effect by being tricky, just because it is the most practical way to lower healthcare spending is wrong. Again, the incidence rate I posted is 100% neutral, and 100% agenda free. Stating the percentage increase without stating the original numbers, is a big fat manipulative lie.
frumnotyeshivish -“I have never met a person who quit smoking who didn’t truly want and decide to quit; and I have never (yet) met a smoker who truly wanted to and decided to quit, and then failed.”
The second part I disagree with because even though “When there is a will – there is a way”, and although true some really have no will, but most don’t know how to quit. They aren’t aware how to get help. They aren’t aware of the meds or counselling. So there are many who truly want to quit, but can’t!
“I don’t smoke (anymore) BTW.”
I’m proud of you. 🙂
“I don’t appreciate the manipulation of numbers that anti-smokers use to try to influence mass behavior, even if some of it is true.”
There is no manipulation!
“A correlation between a behavior and a higher incidence rate of a disease does not prove that the behavior causes the disease.
A smoker is more statistically likely to get heart disease.
That does not mean that a smoker who got heart disease got it from smoking – heart disease is common among non-smokers. Same with stroke.”
Obviously, but most who do come down with these diseases -come from smoking. It’s foolish to think otherwise. Go see the pts. with Heart Disease, like I have and do a history on them. When you do the history a good portion of the time all you find from risk factors is the smoking. So maybe Heart Disease comes from something else like sleeping or maybe, just maybe -it’s because this person has been smoking umteen years?!?!?
“Another point – “Smokers are 20 times more likely to get lung cancer,” vs. “Non-Smokers have a 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer” The CDC said the first one, I said the second one (based on info from the CDC). Both are true.”
So -What IS your point here?
“I can turn it around. Someone who quits smoking has an 80% likelihood of gaining weight. Perhaps it is healthier to smoke.”
Naarish!! The best thing is Not to start smoking. If you smoke, you should quit. If you quit, you shouldn’t do it on your own because then it’s a good chance you’ll trade one problem for another. You should quit under medical care. Hopefully this will prevent complications such as obesity due to the lack of smoking.
“Remember, figures can’t lie but liars can figure. Trying to maximize the emotional effect by being tricky, just because it is the most practical way to lower healthcare spending is wrong. Again, the incidence rate I posted is 100% neutral, and 100% agenda free. Stating the percentage increase without stating the original numbers, is a big fat manipulative lie.”
That’s your opinion, but the opinion of the researchers who know how to do statistics and aren’t with any bias like you are, have found smoking is dangerous to your health. And btw, this research was done way before the country became concerned about healthcare spending. And a good portion of why this country has had such a tremendous increase in healthcare spending is because of so many people smoking! And I agree with “figures can’t lie but liars can figure”, but this applies to you -not to the researchers!
So tell me –Why DID you quit smoking?
I think the problem is that people who try to quit smoking are being too extreme.
Nobody would tell someone who is fat to stop eating- you tell them to stop eating too much. Moderation- like Michelle Obama says.
It is really like this with all addictions; people tell you to quit completely instead of a healthy balance, and that is why it cannot succeed.
Like with alcoholism; people tell alcoholics to never drink at all. If someone would tell me to never drink at all, I would slash him with a broken beer bottle. Now imagine if I was an alcoholic and you told me to never drink at all–I’d slash him with 2 broken beer bottles and trample him with an overweight horse.
Speaking of which, that is why horses are not overweight. It is because nobody tells the overweight ones to quit eating completely- so they are able to lose weight healthily.
“Nobody would tell someone who is fat to stop eating- you tell them to stop eating too much. Moderation- like Michelle Obama says.”
The only thing is, eating in moderation isn’t harmful to your health. Smoking, even in moderation, is.
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