Why Can't Women Get Modern Smicha and Become Rabbis?

notasheep: I am not contesting that women are generally more expressive of their empathy than men (even though I do contest that idea slightly; see below). I am contesting the idea that empathy is somehow more intrinsic to female nature than it is to general human nature. Your statement above

Sensitivity is part of being a mother – which normal woman can ignore the sound of her child (or any child) in pain, for instance?

to me is the same thing as saying, “All females have toenails–toenails are totally a female thing.” Obviously, it is a little more nuanced than that, as each gender has a different way of expressing their “toenails,” but to say one gender *has* more of it (what exactly does that mean, anyway?), or to make it somehow an intrinsic claim of one gender over another, does not make any sense to me.

To take your example: you say, “Women do have more empathy than men,” but all I see you demonstrate is that women and men have different ways of expressing the empathy that they both possess. I think that females have a way of expressing their empathy that is generally perceived as being “more empathetic” by by both genders; I am not really so sure that you can empirically state that one reaction is “more empathetic.” The female contribution to this phenomenon ostensibly comes from females identifying more with the female reaction, and therefore perceiving it as more empathetic. I do not completely understand why men tend to feel the same way (although I have some conjectures).

I do not really see how your second example is relevant to the discussion of empathy.

Since I am anyway gonna be offline for a while soon I may as well cut my losses here. Obviously, the observations I am making from my own personal experience (and not from armchair psychology as some others are claiming) are still being seen as highly judgmental and the fact that I am really not the type of person to pass judgment against my own kind based on sweeping generalisations not being taken into account. I was only trying to make the point that women who gain certain positions of authority lose some of their feminine qualities.

I shall let you all battle the rest out yourselves

“gavra: There’s nothing to prove. It isn’t just them. Even the RCA denounced the very idea of a simple title change to rabba from maharat. A simple title change! Denounced. From all corners. On this matter the entire Orthodox rabbinic world, from chasidic to litvish to modern orthodox all agree.”

+1

notasheep: If that was directed at me, let me say that I definitely was not trying to attack your character. I hold fellow Discworlders in the highest regard. :3 Sorry if I laid it on a bit think.

gavra: hehehe ^_^

Benignuman, Avnei Nezer is in Y’D 2, 312.1(5).

Have you ever tried to have a halachic discussion with a woman? Now you know why women can’t become rabbis. Their bought process with respect to Torah is very different.

Different thought (not bought) process does not equate with POOR thought process, as you seem to imply. Forgive me, if I am mistaken in that inference. I agree that most men and women do not have the same path of thought process, but that does not mean that they do not as a matter of course arrive at the same destination, if they are both Torah educated. I do NOT advocate for women Rabbis (contradictory terms), but do not make the mistake of underestimating the power of a woman’s mind. We have binah yeseira, and though may be perceived as less logical, the feminine mind has almost infinite ability to discern the important things in life, with no NEED for male logic.

Popa +1

‘I will tell you that “other than to point out that The Rav’s wife and one of his daughters both held positions of communal leadership at the Maimonides School” is a response. Why can’t you answer the question? Would the Rov approve of such an institution? Of course not.’

Of course The Rov approved. He *FOUNDED* the Maimonides school.

His psak in which he said that a woman can be a judge was accepted by just about every part of the Orthodox world, the only exceptions being the extremists like Neturei Karta (if they can be considered Orthodox).

Charlie, let me introduce you to how your mind works.

Anyone to the right of you = Neturei Karta.

Charlie: You must be joking. It was not accepted by anyone except left wing loonies like Weiss and his co-clowns who anyway do not believe Torah is min hashamayim. For blasted sake, if I didn’t believe the Torah was from Hashem, I also wouldn’t care what it says.

I will relate one of the saddest stories I have ever witnessed. It’s purpose is not to prove anything, other than be anecdotal evidence that if girls are taught how to learn then they will be able to learn similarly to boys.

I once saw a Chassidish man chatting up a very modern girl for an extended period of time. Afterwards, I asked him what happened. I assumed that she was a cousin or something. He said he asked her something because he needed assistance with something and then they ended up talking in learning for 20 minutes. I asked him if he thought it was okay to talk in learning with a girl. He said absolutely not. I asked him why he did it. He said that he couldn’t stop thinking of his mother. When I asked him to elaborate, he said, “If my mother knew how to talk in learning like this girl did then I might actually have something to talk to her about.”

Now, there are a lot of things that can be drawn from this story, the first and foremost being that this guy’s family has some issues and nothing more than that. But I think it does show that girls can at least learn in similar fashion to boys if given the same upbringing. (I am not commenting on whether or not it is Muttar for girls to learn and such; this is only about physical and intellectual capabilities.)

“You must be joking.”

I’m not joking at all. The shilah was whether Jewish women can vote in democratic elections, and one of the arguments he used in favor was that women can be dayanim. If you find me a frum community that prohibits women from voting (while permitting men to vote) I’ll withdraw my statement.

‘If we would have a voluntary course in Bais Yakovs and Seminaries where girls, who wish to do so, can “learn how to learn” ‘

Baruch HaShem we now have that, at Midreshet Lindenbaum, Drisha, Nishmat, Stern College, and Yeshivat Maharat.

All are Modern Orthodox Religious Zionist. When will the Charedi world get with the program?

PBA: To be fair, when has Avi Weiss ever done anything like deny Torah MiSinai? Even if you hold he’s someone it’s Muttar to say Lashon Hara about, you can’t just make things up.

PBA: What are you referring to? I’m sorry if I’m not holding in this. Care to elaborate?

PBA: I read all of the responses and such. I still don’t see anywhere where Avi Weiss (or Asher Lopitan) defended Farber. I don’t think it’s fair or Muttar to say that Rabbi Weiss doesn’t believe in Torah Min Hashamayim. For all of the valid Ta’anos against him, this isn’t one of them.

What about R’ Hutner’s prize student? He has ignored a din Torah from R’ Moshe. Does that mean we can now insult R’ Hutner for the actions of his student?

truth: No idea what you’re talking about. I think you’ve been trying to drum something up about this for a while though. To be the real truthsharer here, I don’t really care.

What is amazing is that he doubled down on the motzi shem ra after I personally offered a first hand recounting of a statement that contradicted him. Is he accusing me of being a liar? Unlike just about everyone else here, I post under my real name, and would suffer consequences not just in Heaven but in Olam Ha-Zeh were I to flood the internet with lies.

This isn’t about you.

The Gemara in Niddah 50a says ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????. Tosafos asks that a woman is pasul as a witness yet she can be a dayan as we see from Devorah and from the drasha of ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???????. Tosafos gives three answers. The first answer is that the rule of ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? only applies within the category of men. This would indicate that there is no problem with a woman being a dayan. The Pri Megadim in the pesicha in the beginning of Orach Chaim ??? ????? ??? ? writes that when Tosafos gives multiple answers the first one is the ikkar.

The Sefer Hachinuch Mitzvah 152 writes:

????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????

The Pischei Teshuva Choshen Mishpat 7:5 writes:

???? ?????? ??? ????? ??’ ?”? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? [??? ?’ ?”? ?”? ?? ????] ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? (??”?) [??”?] ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ??’ ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??’ ?”? ????? ???”? ???”? ???? ??”? ???”?

“The Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 7:3) writes: ??? ????? ????”

I know that. That is the very statement that the Pischei Teshuva which I quoted is going on.