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…if they don’t typically work 45 hour weeks with only 10-15 days vacation per year, like every other profession? I know that educating our children is important, etc., but that doesn’t justify a $50k/year salary (not to mention a nice pension in some states) for working what would otherwise be considered a part-time job, if it were not in the field of education.
They work after hours too.
Why do musicians feel like they deserve money every time the song is bought when they performed it only once in a recording studio?
I think they keep the same hours as we do.
Supply and demand.
Maybe the question is on us – why don’t we value our children’s Jewish education enough to pay their rebbeim and moros a fair wage commiserate with the value they are providing?
As far as part time=low salary, tell that to professional athletes who work half a year and get paid millions.
Instead of bashing those who may very well be the ticket to our Olam Habo, perhaps learn to appreciate the tremendous skill and dedication which the vast majority of mechanchim bring.
BTW, most mechanchim I know take summer jobs out of financial necessity, despite the fact that the intense nature of their jobs takes an emotional and physical toll well beyond the hours they spend in the classroom, and they could really use the break to recharge.
Teachers work less than half of what normal 9-5’ers work. There’s no reason to believe throwing more money at them would make education better.
The problem in this whole yeshiva tution crisis is that the Rebbes deserve to get paid and the Parents cannot afford the tutiton so there is a cash crunch
Are their parents who can pay more and dont? Of course, but they are not the majorty and even if a parent spluges a little it doesnt mean they should drop the “luxury” and pay more. Should one drive a 20 year old beat up Chevy instead of a late model Honda Accord. Should one move to a smaller apartment to save money.
Maybe people should eat cheaper foods and pay higher tution and even if the parents take a vacation, Most vacations arent as luxirious as you think. You can spend $500-$1000 for a vacation that isnt going to make a big different, but it might help the sanity of the parents a little
I don’t know why you assume that they don’t work a regular full time amount. If anything they work overtime.
Most rabeim know what they are getting into before taking on the jib just like a kollel guy knows what hes getting into before joining the kollel which pays very minimal.
Perhaps we should consider paying the kollel guy top dollar because after all hes learning torah all day and that is the ikar. Why should only rabeim be privileged for a high salary?
Why are moros and women teaches not entitled to higher pay?.
Bottom line, if you want higher pay then go get a higher paying job. Besides, arent we taught that you only make what is determined At rosh hashana? So why denand a higher salary? If hashem want you to get more money he will figure out a way to do it.Why no similar “rant” when Lebron James recently signed a 4 year contract with the Lakers for an average salary of $38,000,000 a season. Given that the basketball season is 82 games of 48 minutes a game, he is making in excess of $575,000 an HOUR.
You dont fargin a teacher who works 20 hours a week (likely even more if teaches every day 5 days a week) for 36 weeks 50k a year (less than $70 an hour).
The basketball player makes 8200 times per hour more than the teacher, and for the teacher you deem it necessary to spew your stupid rant?
When a teacher goes home, they check homework, prepare lessons, call/email parents, deal with your child’s therapists. Which leaves them no time to work a second job. Hence they should get paid the full time salary. Of course there’s the vacations, even though they arent working , they can’t get another job because of their loyalties to your child.
If a rebbe works a summer job, then when he gets upset at you child in November, you are the first to scream he’s burnt out and is taking it out on my child…..
That’s why a rebbe deserves a full time salary… they can’t get another job because of their loyalties to your child.
If a rebbe works a summer job, then when he gets upset at you child in November, you are the first to scream he’s burnt out and is taking it out on my child…..
That’s why a rebbe deserves a full time
salary..
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Fake news!DY:
Your comment sounds really nice and caring, but the assumptions are often untrue. There are many mechanchim who are worth their weight in gold, providing excellent service, benefiting our children so greatly, and are seriously and unfairly underpaid. There are also way too many who should not be in the field altogether. Their talents and gifts of skills lie elsewhere, and they pursue chinuch because it does “pas” to do anything else. That is sinful, and actually punishes the children with an incompetent rebbe/teacher, drains the yeshiva budget by directing wages to the undeserving, and possibly hurts the reputation of the yeshiva by providing inferior services. These incompetents are not the kids’ key to Olam Haboh. Quite contrary, they are potential contributors to the children finding the Torah world an uncomfortable, even painful place.
Chinuch is a profession. It involves a set of skills, and should be treated as any profession, preceded by training, the achievement of proficiency, and some form of documentation to be eligible to work in this field. There should also be continued education to expand and improve one’s skills. This has begin to happen, but sadly has not yet become the norm. For those who do their jobs well, they deserve a huge salary plus lots more.
“By the way, it is completely halachically assur for rabbeim to charge money for the teaching of Torah. ”
1: The obligation to educate a child, is on the parent, not the rebbe or yeshiva. A parent who chooses to use the school as a shaliach, is obligated to compensate that shliach for their time.
2: Why assume the Rebbe is “charging” anything. When was the last time a Rebbe or Morah sent you a bill?
3: Supply and Demand? So, where is the readily available supply of teachers willing to put in 25 hour weeks for 35k a year? If it existed, the schools would hire them in droves, (assuming the parent body would go along with it – the demand side of the equation).
“Therefore, the payment is commiserate with the value of what would be deemed an average compensation”
Unless you consider a Walmart cashier, or fast food employee “average compensation”, how is giving an experienced Rebbe or Morah 50k a year, above average. From the website teachnyc.net (look under salary and benefits). Based on this info, I would say 50k, without benefits is at best the lower end of the average compensation.
SALARY & BENEFITS
Make a living doing what you love. All teachers in New York City public schools receive a professional salary and competitive benefits package, earning more for additional experience and coursework, or for taking on new responsibilities.SALARIES
For 2018-19, starting salaries for teachers will range from $56,711 (bachelor’s degree, no prior teaching experience) to $85,794 (master’s degree, eight years teaching experience, plus additional coursework). New teachers with a master’s degree but no prior teaching experience will earn $63,751. Teachers’ salaries increase each year for more experience as well as education.Firstly, the melamed is paid for not being able to maintain a full time job because he is a melamed. This is written explicitly in Shulchan Aruch. You are not paying him for the hours he spent learning with your child. You are paying him because in order to teach your child he must forego a parnassa.
Secondly, the reason no one can afford to pay tuition is because tuition is not just money going to teachers. There are a hundred different schools and each one is building a building and paying for other infrastructural costs. Once upon a time a select few learned in yeshivos, of which there were only a few, and other people learned in the city beis midrash/shul or in a small place with a melamed. But now you are paying for the bus to pick up your children, the myriad projects and field trips, the air conditioner and utilities, insurance costs, and everything else.
In any case, Shulchan Aruch says explicitly the community should tax rich people to ensure that the children of people who cannot pay schar limud are educated. The fact that there can be such a thing that a child will not be in school because his parents cannot afford it is against Hashem’s Torah and it doesn’t help that every mosad will wipe their hands because, “so let someone else take him. it isn’t my personal responsibility.” The entire tzibbur is guilty and will be guilty rachmana letzlan when whatever happens happens because a Jewish child was not given a Torah education.
Curiosity,
“…if they don’t typically work 45 hour weeks with only 10-15 days vacation per year, like every other profession? I know that educating our children is important, etc., but that doesn’t justify a $50k/year salary (not to mention a nice pension in some states) for working what would otherwise be considered a part-time job, if it were not in the field of education.”
Supply and demand: If educators indeed received “full time” pay and benefits for a “part time” job, then there would be droves of people breaking down the door to be teachers. We do not see this. Why?
A 40 hour workweek over 50 weeks in a year comes out to around 2000 hours worked. A teacher works more like 40 weeks out of the year, but puts in closer to 10 hours of work per day, which comes out to a 50 hour workweek. Also 2000 hours. So you’re essentially kvetching about 50*40 vs. 40*50.
And the pay gap between teaching and other professions increases quite a bit when factoring in years worked.
If you think Rebbes are paid too much, look at girls schools teachers. they are paid even less
“Why do teachers/rebbis feel they deserve a full time salary?”
the real answer is: this is what the profession pays. look at the treachnyc website for starting salary information. public school teachers work no more than the average full time rebbe/teacher in a yeshiva.
“So why denand a higher salary? If hashem want you to get more money he will figure out a way to do it.”
The sick truth is that I don’t hear teacher’s demanding better pay – I hear NON teachers complaining that they don’t deserve it. And when the complaints come from people who don’t even have kids or have kids in the system, what business do you even have opening your mouth about it?“Teachers work less than half of what normal 9-5’ers work. There’s no reason to believe throwing more money at them would make education better.”
Neville – this comment is not just demeaning but ignorant. If you would like to believe that your minimal exposure-relative to the actual amount of teacher’s out there – warrants such a definitive statement than you are not who you used to be. If you would like to narrow it down to the relatively miniscule group you have actually and objectively researched, then say so. No need to degrade an entire population of teachers.
” look at girls schools teachers. they are paid even less”
probably because there is a glut of post seminary girls who will take the job at that salary for a year or 2 until she gets married and moves to lakewood, when there will be a line of post seminary girls waiting to take her job.the word is COMMENSURATE:
com·men·su·rate
kəˈmensərət,kəˈmenSHərət/Submit
adjective
corresponding in size or degree; in proportion.
“salary will be commensurate with experience”
synonyms: equivalent, equal, corresponding, correspondent, comparable, proportionate, proportional
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People who commiserate have the same negative feelings about something. Take a look at how commiserate is built: it’s from Latin “com-,” which means “together with,” and miserārī, “to pity.” Put them together, and you get “to pity one another, commiserate.”Underpaid Yeshiva and Day School staff often commiserate about their small and often late paychecks.
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Time for better English instruction in American Yeshivos and Day Schools“Time for better English instruction in American Yeshivos and Day Schools”
Hi CTL – I know I’m overreacting a bit but I am tired of the trashing. Considering you have no idea where those two were schooled it was uncalled for. For all you know they are converts who had attended the highest quality catholic private school in the country. Or better yet, one of those top notch public schools with an education that we can only dream of getting for our own kids.” I don’t even have children.”
There you have it. someone who doesnt even have kids, has zero clue what teachers do, is complaining about teachers. About sums up this thread.
“You are comparing the salary of one of the top earners in the NBA”
OK, lets take the LOWEST paid player in the NBA. Under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement between the owners and players, the MINIMUM salary for a player with ZERO years experience is just over $562,000. TEN times what you are kvetching about what a teacher might make.either way, my point was not how much Lebron James is making, rather, it was your lack of a rant about his salary. unless of course you find nothing obscene about that kind of salary for an athlete, in which case, I find it obscene that you think it a chutspah for a teacher to want to be paid 50k a year.
@Syag
My comment about better English instruction was prompted by the battles in NYS to ensure Yeshivos actually teach the required English/general studies hours.
OOT, no day school would dare skimp on English. Most of the student body goes on to college. The general Jewish community subsidizes the day schools through Federation allocations.All I can say is, those bashing teachers and rebbe’s have absolutely no idea what the job entails. It’s not a part-time job by any stretch of the imagination.
I was a yeshiva teacher for over a decade. I don’t envy the rebbes. It’s a tremendous amount of work with little money, no job security and no respect.
Most people working for companies get to start their day at 9 and end it at 5, come hell or high water they’re gone.
Teachers need to prepare for their class every night. They have to mark tests, speak to parents, therapists and school administration after school hours. This happens on a daily bases.
“… when I was in school, a few of my rabbeim would jokingly complain on a regular basis about their low $40k-50k salary.”
Did they actually complain about their $40k-50k salary, or did they complain about their salary and YOU decided they were making $40k-50k?
Do you really think you are justified in such a harsh condemning expression toward an entire profession because of the bad experiences you had in one place in one point in time? Would that possibly fit the definition of whining?
Lastly, you are correct that those teachers were wrong. Very wrong. There is no excuse for being ungrateful and it is even worse to hurt a young student (and not even know you are doing so). But I haven’t met teachers who make that much money. Not a decade ago, and not now. If they do by you, that doesn’t mean they all do.To whomever said that ridiculous statement about social workers working all year and making less, my colleagues who are social workers start at 25% more than a long time rebbe. With summers off.
I dont think many people here are contributing to Lebron james Salary. he is entitled to get whatever he can (As are rebbes)
OOT, no day school would dare skimp on English. Most of the student body goes on to college. The general Jewish community subsidizes the day schools through Federation allocations. </me>
In NYC area, the jewish schools get ZIP, NADA, BUPKAS from the federation, each school is on its own to raise the money
They are underpaid no matter what their salary is. Do you know what they put up with AFTER they come home?
Dealing with 30 mother and 30 fathers… Marking papers ..
Preparing for next day studies… In class discipline, dealing with Neshomas for future Life……
Principals… Vaad this… Vaad that…. People in shul…
So how can you compare their job to an,office job,
where you come home and you are done.
Think about it….Some teachers are overpaid if you steal money from them instead of giving them anything. The schools don’t differentiate enough between good and bad teachers.
feel free to have an opinion, but stop trying to push it off as fact. You want to have an opinion on abortion, go ahead. But don’t talk about it like you know the ins and outs when its just an outside opinion.
You are entitled to have an opinion about everything. Unfortunately, your comments have proven that you are grossly misinformed about what the life of a teacher is really like in most frum schools in the united states (based on experience, info from articles and others and this thread).
To say the teachers repeat the same material every year so it gets easier is silly. Did you make that up based on personal experience with things you’ve done repeatedly or did you ever actually ask a bunch of teachers?
Does being off for 7 weeks in the summer, 8 days for sukkos and 10 for pesach REALLY equal working 3/4 of a year? Even your claim that other professions don’t do this is ignorant of the facts. I work in ONE school district where there are psychologists, speech therapists, OT’s, PTs, reading specialists and social workers who are NOT teachers who make $70k-$100k per year working 9,5 months with 12 days off during those months, two weeks off in December, one week off in April and 1 day off EACH month. So how many other professionals (real ones, not the whiny types) are there if you include the entire county, state or country who are earning nd working on a schedule that you said doesn’t exist?I’m sorry you were hurt, I really am. Life in my house wasn’t easy financially either. In fact life for my kids isn’t always so easy, but you can’t mow down the good with the bad, and you can’t condemn the whole population 10, or 20 years later.
Well said, Syag
Curiosity,
In short, you’re woefully uninformed about the specifics of the job. It’s not a part-time job. And even if it was, in order for a teacher to be committed to a teaching job, he has to be paid a living wage. Otherwise he’ll find work elsewhere and you’ll be without a teacher. So even if you don’t believe the fact that teachers do work full-time, you’ll still have to pay them a living wage in order for them to actually be there to teach.
We’re not over paying them. It’s disturbing you think we are.
Regards to you being a parent in order for you to understand the job, it’s not that we don’t respect your opinion. It’s just that you’re misinformed about the aspects of the job that doesn’t occur at the school setting. Most parents end up speaking to their child’s teacher after school numerous times throughout the year. And if there is any type of problem or issue that has to be discussed on a more personal level, parents are sometimes in contact with their teachers numerous times a week.
Multiply that by 25 children per class, and many teachers teach multiple classes a day. It’s not a pretty picture.
It’s possible that the teachers in your life complained for no reason. It’s possible. But they’re definitely not overpaid.
“In NYC area, the jewish schools get ZIP, NADA, BUPKAS from the federation, each school is on its own to raise the money”
Sorry, to disagree. I live in Fairfield County, CT…which is the NYC area. For example, the following Day Schools receive funds from Jewish Federation of Stamford: Bi-Cultural Day School (Stamford), Carmel Academy (Greenwich), Jewish High School of CT (Stamford), Gan Yeladim (Chabad pre-school Stamford).
In New Haven, where I was born and raised, Federation provides financial support (and has for more than 4 decades) to both Southern CT Hebrew Academy/Bais Chanah )Lubavitch and Ezra Academy (conservative).
Bridgeport no longer has a day school, but when it functioned Hillel Academy received funding from Federation.
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UJA Federation NY does not directly fund day schools, but allocates $1 MIllion per year for day school scholarships. Parents may apply to Federation directly for these funds.
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Outside Metro NYC in CT. Day schools/Yeshivos in the Hartford area, Waterbury, Danbury, New London receive funding from local Federations. The OOT Jewish community as a whole understands the importance of these institutions and that they should be available and be funded, not just by the orthodox community.This thread is awful, and anyone disparaging our teachers, Rabbeim, and Moros should be ashamed of themselves. These are the people (speaking in general, not the bad apples) dedicating their lives to helping your children become mature, healthy, productive adults. That you feel the need to discuss how much money you’re comfortable with them making and to question whether they deserve it, calls your character into question, nothing less. Utterly pathetic, totally disheartening. Applying rules of economics to a Rebbi’s salary? Is that what they are? Supply and demand? Are these people are nothing more than providers of a service? You compare them to some boor catching a football, while they’re engaged in the guaranteeing the future of klal yisroel? This thread is astonishing in its audacity. I’m just floored.
The facts are that teachers are in the class room much less than office workers are in the office.
You teacher lobbyists are relying on 2 assumptions that you’re presenting as facts: 1) that teachers put in so many hours outside the classroom that it adds up to over 40. 2) that office workers DON’T put in any hours over 40.
I don’t believe in either of these.
And, by the way, my comment wasn’t meant to demean teachers. I’m not the one saying they’re doing a poor job. I think they do fine; I just also think they’re compensated fairly based on how many hours they work.
By the way, what I’ve been focusing on is the hours worked by secular-studies teachers and public school teachers. Yeshiva Rebbeim work different hours.
A typical rebbi grade 6 and up works daily from 7:45-2:15 (shachris thru mincha) M-TH plus an additional 8 HRs friday and sunday. That is 34 hrs not including prep meetings pta marking tests etc.. Sounds pretty full time.
Thinkingclearly – nice point. And at my kids schools it’s even an added 11 for Friday and Sunday.
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