July 8, 2013 7:52 am at 7:52 am #967239interjectionParticipant
Also I know men like to believe that all women dress for make attention, but it ain’t so. If anything we dress for other women’s approval but as far as I know MOST women are disgusted when men ogle them.July 8, 2013 11:32 am at 11:32 am #967240Nigritude UltramarineMember
Why don’t you focus on this world that you are living, instead of that supposedly other place you are talking about.July 8, 2013 11:35 am at 11:35 am #967241zahavasdadParticipant
Im not sure you really want this.
Its been asked many times about issues like Ramat Beis Shemesh why the Rabbanim havent dont anything.
If they “enforce” tzniut, One should expect them to stop the Zealots in RMS and Meir Sharim. One should expect them to control the abusers. One should expect them to control other scandals that have rocked us latelyJuly 8, 2013 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #967242
There are two responsibilities in tznius. One is that women need to dress appropriately. There are different standards, and the creation of something that will be halachically uniform is nothing but a dream. There remain opinions about just what is considered ervah, and these disputes in halacha predate our generation by many, many years. There are certain minimums, and one should hope these are followed universally. However, only women bear the responsibility to insure that they behave in this manner. The power to legislate this from the bench is nonexistent, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. As I stated earlier, we would accomplish more by expanding our connection to HKB”H at the individual and communal levels.
The second aspect of tznius is the men’s responsibility. Since we do not own the world, there will always be presence of some women who are not dressed according to our standards of tznius. How many people have cleaning ladies who arrive at our doors, having walked the streets of our neighborhoods who are underdressed? It is reality that there will be exposure to female skin. Men are obligated to avoid looking. Bear in mind that there is no issur of re’iyah – seeing, just histaklus -looking. A man is not liable for the momentary casual sight, just for the extra second of fixation or glancing. Regardless of whether a woman is responsible for her manner of dress, men are still liable for their looking. And the exposure will always exist. No woman is liable for a man’s extra second of gazing, as no man is liable for the missing inches of hemline.
I find it worth repeating, though it’s starting to get tedious. With all we need to do to improve our compliance with the issurim we must follow, we have at least as much need to increase our hashro’as haShechinah in everything we do. Can we address our efforts to comply better with Shivisi Hashem Linegdi Tomid?July 8, 2013 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #967243writersoulMember
WIY: Did I ever say that’s not the case?
All I’m saying is that even if it does harm you, you can’t force someone else to change FOR YOU. You can wish they did, and it could be COMPLETELY their problem and they could be headed straight to the boiling oil (or the Jewish equivalent) after 120, but a) a decent amount of the onus is on YOU not to look and b) even if the other person is 100% wrong, you can be VERY annoyed and even ask the other person not to paint the door orange, but you can’t ask them to repaint or even repaint it yourself.
It’s frustrating, but it’s a fact of life.
And like someone mentioned above, after the basic tznius guidelines the girl is COVERED (literally and figuratively). Of course, a taste for the spirit of the law is appreciated, I’m sure, but yes, it is just as much (if not, for obvious reasons, MORE) your mitzvah than ours. I won’t be blackmailed into taking ALL of the responsibility off of the guys- if a guy trips up, it’s not ONLY the girl’s fault.July 8, 2013 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #967244WIYMember
You don’t believe in olam haba and secular veonesh? If so you are a kofer.
Why do you allow people to post open kefira on the site? The modding has gotten very lax on this site. It’s not acceptable to allow people to post kefira and apikorsus. If you don’t know what’s kefira and apikorsus go learn the Rambams. One who doesn’t believe in them is a kofer and this nigritude fellow is a kofer.July 8, 2013 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #967245WIYMember
The next time you have to walk on the street alone on a busy avenue I recommend you to try the following. Look down on the floor the whole time and basically keep your eyesight within no more than about 8 feet in front of you. Don’t pick your head up to look around. No looking at people or any stores just mind the floor. Tell me how you do. Now we have to try this with a yetzer pushing us to constantly look. I guarantee you the challenge for men is harder. Way harder. This area is the hardest area in avodas Hashem and if one vanquishes his yetzer in this area he gets the title tzaddik (Yosef hatzadik never even looked at potifars wife). I’m not saying women don’t have a challenge to dress tzniusdig. But it’s not within the same universe of difficulty. There isn’t much I can say on this site but if you want to know the struggles of men go to guard your eyes and read the forums. You seriously have no clue how challenging it is for a man to keep himself holy in this generation. Again I’m not knocking women’s challenges but to even think there’s any comparison in the difficulty of the challenge is purely ludicrous.July 8, 2013 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #967246happieMember
If rabbonim shouldn’t enforce tznius halachas, and it should be left up to each woman and G-d, then by the same token rabbonim shouldn’t enforce kashrus halachos, or geneiva halachos, or shmiras shabbos halachos or any halachos for that matter.
Just leave all that up to each man and G-d.July 8, 2013 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #967247yaakov doeParticipant
There is a problem, but denying husbands the right to daven in a shul would result in no minyonim in many communities.
I was at a camp visiting day yesterday, and far less than half of the women were dressed according to a moderate standard of halacha.July 8, 2013 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #967248heretohelpMember
Most reasonable people believe that punishing children for their parents’ mistakes is wrong, boorish and uncivilized. I don’t have specifics on what the Torah perspective on this would be, but it seems to jibe with most of how we do everything else.July 8, 2013 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #967249yichusdikParticipant
OP – meet glass house. When you are 100% certain of your own tzidkus – in all respects, then you can feel free to consider mine, or that of my wife or daughter or mother. When your shul enforces a level of morality in the business dealings of its members that approaches real Torah standards, when it ensures that not a single one of its members or those in its community goes hungry or without shelter, when it welcomes every Jew with open arms and the love we are obligated to show and feel, then, perhaps, a Rov or Rebbitzin could have the necessary and appropriate discussion with those who do not meet a halachic standard or dress – not those who don’t meet your chumra. Until then, build the walls before you put up the roof.
When did our beautiful yiddishkeit become more about finding perceived faults in your neighbors behavior or demeanor or dress and less about perfecting yourself to walk in Hashems ways? When did it fall from love and welcome to criticism and excommunication?
Focusing on fault and transgression is all fine and good when you are restricting yourself and doing your own cheshbon hanefesh. Projecting it onto others is a surefire way to drive them away from Yiddishkeit. So, if that is your objective, to pursue some sort of elitism that will make you feel superior to all those transgressors out there, mazel tov, you’ve succeeded in creating the kind of cultish environment those meshugoim in Quebec have built.July 8, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #967250a maminParticipant
I find this thread so very sad. You people are all in denial, saying what the halacha is or isn’t. You all know who you are, and what your problems are.No matter how many threads are started on the tznius issue some of you just wont get it will you? Tznius is beautiful! It is meant to enhance our beauty and not LOWER our dignity! I really feel sorry for all of you who are so appalled by so many tznius threads. You’re just always looking for excuses not to have to listen to the Rabonim!Look for other problems like Lashan Hara, yes, that is an issue but WHY do you all keep running away when the tznius issue is brought up? You cant fool me and you definitely won’t fool the Rebonei Shel Olam!!It’s time to look in the mirror! Yes, you, each and everyone of you!July 8, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #967251
WIY- ive tried arguing this point with this poster on other occasions. it doesnt resonate with her. forget it.July 8, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #967252Sam2Participant
Toi and WIY: Has any male walked a mile in a woman’s shoes? You’re making an assumption based on the difficulty of your Ta’avos. Just like this is more difficult for some men than others, so too it’s more difficult for some women than others. Assuming that women can never understand the man’s Yetzer for this is stupid and quite arrogant, just like you can’t understand her Yetzer.July 8, 2013 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #967253writersoulMember
WIY: Everyone gets a pekel, which is theirs and theirs only. Some people might have a hard time with one thing, but an easier time with something else. Others may have the exact reverse situation. Maybe someone who has a very easy time in one respect, one that you find hard, actually has a hard time in something you think is intuitive and natural, or vice versa.
To be completely honest, if you’re going to claim that we women don’t understand your tayvos, it’s arrogant to suppose that you can understand ours. It works both ways. And let’s say, for argument’s sake, that your tayvos IN THIS MATTER are worse than ours. How do you know that women don’t have a different tayva that is just as difficult as yours is? For instance, if I have $100 in cash and you have $700 in cash, you may have more money than I do. But I may have more gold coins than you do, which could mean that the VALUE of all of the money we each have could theoretically be equal. It’s not straightforward at all.July 8, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #967254
couldn’t agree with you more.
I am sure you are aware that what got people upset about this thread is not the concept of being tzanua or listening to rabbonim – if anything this thread was decrying the fact that the rabbonim dont ” unite and deny any husband, whose wife dresses against halacha, entrance to their shul for any Tefila, including weekdays, Shabbos and Yom Tov and Yomim Noraim.Their children shouldn’t be allowed in schools.” Boruch Hashem we have rabbonim and manhigim who have a lot more seichel than this. Threads like this and attitudes like that are precisely what turns people away from following halacha.July 8, 2013 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #967255OneOfManyParticipant
I’d also like to second interjection’s point. The wearing of clothing is an important and complex cultural and sociological marker, and it comprises a great deal more social consciousness than some here seem to attribute it. It’s just bizarre to claim that one group would choose a mode of dress for the sole purpose of seeking attention from another group.July 8, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #967256
Why is there an assumption “Rabbonim” are not doing anything to elevate or simply maintain certain levels of tznius in their own communities or shuls? Is it the absence of full page ads in the papers? Leaflets strewn about the tables of the shuls? Posters plastering the walls of the neighborhhod? Is it the absence of local Rabbonim standing with squirt guns filled with bleach? I’m just Apushatayid, and dont know “Rabbonim”, I only know my Rav. In my shul, the Rav does in fact speak to those men whose wives and/or daughters his Rebbetzin feels are not dressed appropriately. This is only after the Rebbetzin herself has spoken to the woman in question and feels the need for her husband, the Rav, to approach the husband/father and get them involved.
I think this thread is motzi laz on “rabbonim” and should be shut down.July 8, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #967257
Sam2- we argued this out before, too. ive spoken with enough members of both parties. i based my conclusion on , for lack of a better word, research. no contest.July 9, 2013 12:59 am at 12:59 am #967258
“This area is the hardest area in avodas Hashem”
“have no clue how challenging it is for a man to keep himself holy in this generation”
Based upon this you are obligated to move to a community where full Tznius exists in practice. Gateshead and Lakewood with non Jews does not qualify. Only a place such as Kiryat Yoel or Squaretown will achieve this. If you cannot afford either, then there is a new Chasidish community being formed 2-3 hours away from New York City where houses are going for only $40,000.July 9, 2013 2:25 am at 2:25 am #967259Biology (joseph)Participant
Josh: Isn’t it sad that some of the only few places where you can find real adherence to this mitzva are in places such as the two towns you mentioned?July 9, 2013 2:50 am at 2:50 am #967260rebdonielMember
I don’t believe wigs are tznius, so I couldn’t move there.July 9, 2013 4:21 am at 4:21 am #967261Biology (joseph)Participant
They don’t wear wigs there, afaik.July 9, 2013 9:41 am at 9:41 am #967262
My earlier advise about relocation was specifically for the person whose writings I had quoted. For rebdoniel or myself to follow such advice would be fraudulent to begin with.
Biology, there could be other communities in which everyone adheres to their obligations in manner of dress, but for some of us a totally insular community is what is needed.July 9, 2013 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #967263LeyzerParticipant
SMy thoughts on this sensitive issue:
1. No one ever likes being told off for doing something wrong.
2. Enforcing keeping of Torah is not a Jewish approach, except with certain averos which the halacha dictates one should protest. E.g. Talking during chazoras hashatz.
3. Notwithstanding the above, women who dress nontzniusly are being selfish, by directly challenging the frumkeit of frum men. I refer to women who dress in a manner that is unanimously considered not tznius. E.g. Skirts above the knee.
4. Is it not unfair and wrong that they can get away with such selfish behavior in public?July 9, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #967264MammeleParticipant
RebDoniel: even if you oppose wigs as a qualified head covering for married women, I don’t think you can say that all wigs are non tznius. If a wig is “eidel” and very likely partially covered (in those towns) it is less striking than a non married girl’s hair.
However, to live in a perfect town tznius-wise, you’d probably need to move to the Helbrans cult in Canada, which I wouldn’t recommend. It is however not an all or nothing game, so minimizing bad exposure is commendable. For you RD, I’d first suggest a move away from Manhattan, even if it’s hardly “contaminated” by women wearing wigs…July 9, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #967265
“No, it’s not Halacha. It’s a chumra.”
Whatever it is, it is not a bad suggestion.July 9, 2013 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #967266gavra_at_workParticipant
Based upon this you are obligated to move to a community where full Tznius exists in practice.
Why? There is no Chiyuv to move in order to avoid women who are in a (partial) state of undress. It is a Midah Tovah to avert your eyes in such a case, but even then there is no Chiyuv.
P.S. even in those towns, they still have to go out to buy food, clothing & to visit the municipal offices, where there are “wimmin”.
Josh: Isn’t it sad that some of the only few places where you can find real adherence to this mitzva are in places such as the two towns you mentioned?
Please inform me where is this “mitzva”? Especially on those Josh is discussing, the Eino Yehudim?July 9, 2013 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #967267mewhoParticipant
a house for 40 thousand dollars?
what is it made of and is there civilization nearby?
imho a skirt can be ankle length and still not be what should be considered modest if it is form fitting and tight. so the length in itself is not enough to call something tznius. its about the ”fit” of the garment as well.July 10, 2013 4:21 am at 4:21 am #967268
There is a level of respectful dress that applies to all those created in the image of G-d. Married women covering their hair is a specific Jewish requirement.
“Why? There is no Chiyuv to move in order to avoid women who are in a (partial) state of undress.”
For most of us that may be true, for those who feel that they are overwhelmed by a woman not dressed to Chasidic standards – they should move. The pitfall of the daughters of Moav per Rashi really affected only one tribe. Others have great desires to take what does not belong to them. For them learning a good way to make Kosher money and living where plenty of Kosher money can be earned will keep them away from sin.July 10, 2013 11:39 am at 11:39 am #967270
If I understood the OP properly, the question was at least as much about the roles of Rabbonim in insuring compliance with halachos as it was about tznius standards. And a stark reality is that the roles of Rabbonim in our community are not the same as they were just a few generations ago. The authority to issue piskei halacha has not changed. We are told plenty about ????? ??? ?????. The question is about their responsibility as leaders to set standards and to have some degree of enforcement. Here is where there are huge differences.
1. The Klal does not accept any single individual or group as the benchmark setters to determine what standards should be.
2. The Klal would resent any forms of enforcement, insisting that no one has the right to coerce another to follow a particular standard.
3. Compliance is generally recognized as an individual responsibility, not that of any form of leadership.
4. Nearly any form of enforcement today is (probably accurately) accomplished by punishing the innocent. Example – the yeshiva who will not accept an applicant if the mother drives a car or wears a long shaitel. The child is innocent and is being left to the forces of the street.
Can “Rabbonim” set standards, and can they enforce it? This double barrel question is still unanswered. I doubt there is much disagreement that tznius is a major issue and that there are existing problems.July 10, 2013 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #967271
“Can “Rabbonim” set standards, and can they enforce it?”
This is not relevant. The Mishna says “asay licha Rav”. It is your responsibility to find a Rav and learn from him so he can guide you in life. If you dont do so, he cant be blamed for not taking out full page ads and hanging posters in the street detailing any shortcoming he perceives in you or your neighbors.July 10, 2013 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #967272gavra_at_workParticipant
There is a level of respectful dress that applies to all those created in the image of G-d.
Never heard such a thing. Source?July 10, 2013 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #967273
??? ?? ?? is a requirement of each and every individual. I must have one, and so do you. This thread did not begin to address personal responsibilities. The question raised was a communal one. Do Rabbonim have a responsibility to exert control over a community to insure that tznius standards are being followed? And if someone is not in compliance, just what authority does a Rav have to take action to enforce the rules? We still have neither good answers, nor do we have solutions to deal with non-compliance. There have certainly been attempts, but we might accurately reflect that they have not been effective in achieving the “zero tolerance for immodesty” nor have enforcement efforts been limited to those who are committing these offenses.
Was there hope that opening this thread would produce a solution to this problem?July 10, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #967275zahavasdadParticipant
There is really no such thing as a community anymore except maybe Kiryat Joel and New Square and maybe Williamsburg.
Everywhere else including Borough Park is a hodgepodge of comminitiesJuly 10, 2013 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #967276
You are reading way too much into the OP.
If everyone would get close to a Rav, they will receive all the proper guidance. Of course, it’s easier to sit back and wait for someone else to do it for you and complain when they dont.July 11, 2013 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #967277SaysMeMember
sam2- +1, thank you.
Toi- then perhaps your research is subjective or biased. Gimme a break, you’re comparing levels of nisyonos?? Everyone has their peckel and the challenge is on their own level. What sounds easy for one is near impossible for another. How could you know
wiy- it’s very arrogant of you to think you can know that your nisayon is harder than the 2 inches for all those women you encounter. They can’t understand your nisayon? You can’t understand theirs either. To the same degree. Try looking above instead of at the ground if it’s a pain for you. And yes, i actually have avoided looking at all men to see how difficult it would be, though of course that’s without the taava. No i didn’t keep my eyes pinned to my shoes. But when i saw a man, i looked the other way until we passed. And it wasnt so hard! But i wldn’t even think that my experience is what it’s like for a man, that i cld understand. Because i cant understand yours. And you cant understand mine. Fact of life.July 11, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #967278
Says me- are you a boy or girl? i have a really poshute rayya. go ask any man how often he is nichshol in shmiras einayim. i dont mean going on the internet stuff, i mean on the street. i will guarantee you the number is significantly higher than the percentage of girls walking around dressed not in accordance with the shulchan aruch. lichoirah that should be the best evidence.July 11, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #967279interjectionParticipant
My point is and has always been simply that you cant take as a given that because he is a male and she is a female, that his yetzer hara in this area is automatically stronger than hers. Perhaps for the average male it is harder (although it is impossible to make such a claim) but I think it’s fair to assume that the women who have it harder have it equally as hard as the men who have it harder. Some women may have it easier than many men but also some men have it easier than many women. Proof is: if it werent so hard there wouldnt be any transgressors. Additionally, and here I am addressing all those who choose to judge and call some women horrible names, because someone is dressing a certain way speaks nothing about their yiras shamayim and although it broadcasts to what level they are keeping the Halacha, it does not say anything about how much they are fighting to keep it.July 11, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #967280
“i will guarantee you the number is significantly higher than the percentage of girls walking around dressed not in accordance with the shulchan aruch.”
Sure, if you factor in the non jews.July 11, 2013 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #967281popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I have a pircha on your proof. That dressing tznius is very open and obvious while shmiras einayim is much less so.July 11, 2013 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #967282
i would claim even in a frum society. actually ya, go to flatbush, take a poll, i still guarantee.July 11, 2013 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #967283
pba- i thought of that before i posted. the answer is poshut- that is the nature of the nisayon. just to explain before i explain, ill give a hakdamah. in the thread a few weeks ago where this debate started, the hanachah was agreed upon by both sides that these two yitzrei hara are two sides of a coin. in other words, a man wants to look and a woman wants to be seen/appreciated. accordingly, the very nature of the way the nisayon presents itself cant be a cop out. a womans nisayon isnt while locked in her bedroom, it’s to be seen on the street. a mans nisayon is to see her there, and look, or look away. the fact that the womans strength in this area can be judged by those around her, fakert; it has to be factored in and still be not be overcome. hu raya this is possible is that there are many frum women who know people are judging them and cant help it. on this hanachah we say that if you take a poll, men will be oiver more often.
ill type this over more clearly when i sober upJuly 11, 2013 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #967284oomisParticipant
) Regarding the Halacha of 4 inches, the Rabbonim should come out with a uniform standard, whether it’s 4 or 3 or whatever.”
There IS a standard of halacha already. The skirt should cover the knees, even when the woman is sitting down (presumably this especially includes when she gets in and out of a vehicle or climbs up the stairs). For each woman that may be a different number and also depend on the style of skirt or dress she is wearing.July 11, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #967285
You do realize men can be oiver shemiras einayim even if women are dressed btzanua (which kind of messes up your poll). Additionally anecdotal evidence is not a great proof. Your suppositions about women’s psychology are also very simply not true.July 11, 2013 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #967286jewishfeminist02Member
“in other words, a man wants to look and a woman wants to be seen/appreciated. accordingly, the very nature of the way the nisayon presents itself cant be a cop out. a womans nisayon isnt while locked in her bedroom, it’s to be seen on the street. a mans nisayon is to see her there, and look, or look away.”
Actually, women also like to look at men. And no, this is not just the odd woman out, either. In goyishe culture women look at men just as much as men look at women. The reason we don’t see it so much in the frum community (although you never know what is inside a woman’s head) is that it is programmed into us practically from birth that we must guard against men not looking at women and women not giving men a reason to look. Nobody ever talks about women looking at men, so we assume that no sane woman would ever do such a thing. But the truth is that biologically, it cuts both ways. In fact, when I started becoming more frum in high school, I decided to stop going mixed swimming davka because I found myself looking at men at the swimming pool. For years I thought there was something wrong with me, until I realized that it was a function of my being in the presence of men who were wearing almost nothing. If you don’t give women something to look at, they won’t look. It’s EXACTLY the same phenomenon that happens in the other direction. I really wish more people would think about/acknowledge it. <endrant>July 11, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #967287
jbaldy- ok, thank you for your opinion. i think they are simply very true. again the fact that men can be over that way doesnt make a difference, and doesnt mess up my poll.July 11, 2013 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #967288Sam2Participant
Toi: Actually, I think you have a B’feirush Gemara against you. It’s the top line of an Amud Beis in Kesubos, somewhere in the 50s or 60s. The line is Zeh Yitzrah MiBifnim V’zeh Yitzro Mibachutz. Ayein Sham.July 11, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #967289
I have heard the same from other women. The sefer hachasidim actually says there may be a problem of kol ish!. There is definitely a problem of tzniyus and shmiras enayim both ways.July 11, 2013 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #967290
Sam2- i found the gemara you mentioned and i dont see how it says what you mean at all. the gemara is explaining why a baal who is morid pays half of a what a moreddes pays. from rashi it appears to be a daled vihay type of svara.
jewishf- firstly, i never spoke about that. that wasnt the topic of discussion. we were arguing whehter a mans taava to look is bigger or not than a womans taava to dress inappropriately. agav, this nekuda came up when i was being miva’er the inyan, and from what i heard from a few people, the feelings and thoughts are different even when a woman has a taavah to look.
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