Why Is Tzitzis Mandatory?

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  • #794918
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    HaLeiVi-

    Was that a response to my question? Because I fail to see how it addresses what I was asking. Unless I’m mistaken and you are making a different point.

    #794919
    quark2
    Member

    yitayningwut

    You’re right, my mistake, it is a machlokes rishonim.

    (btw the sugya in shabbos 25: seems to be going that ksus lailah means night time, like the Rambam (at least the way rashi is mefaresh that sugya, don’t know if there might be an alternative pshat))

    About the gemara in Shabbos 25: – first of all, that whole story about Rav Yehudahs minhag is not so clear to me. How is he like a Malach Hashem? I would think that it is because he is wearing the white sdinin (white is a color associated with malachim in other places). So what does it have to do with erev shabbos?

    Only on erev shabbos he would wear the white sdinin? If so, why?

    Maybe it had to do with the rchitzah, perhaps in those days they wouldn’t bathe very often, so when he did the rechitzah on erev shabbos, he became like a malach hashem.

    Anyway, i think the simple answer to your question is, he would remove the sdinin that had the kilaim before Shabbos. It does not say in the gemara that he would leave them on, so it could be that he took them off.

    Another possibility, that might need to be explored a little more, is that the gemara in Brachos deals with someone who put on the beged bi’issur. Whereas here, the levishah of the beged was biheter.

    (it would be a chiddush to say that this should make a difference later on, after the beged is already on, but i still think that it may be possible to draw such a distinction. Since the original levishah was a ‘kum vi’eseh’ issur, that makes the whole levishah, one long kum vieseh levishah of issur. In other words, the maaseh levishah stretches out from when he put it on, until he takes it off.)

    #794920
    quark2
    Member

    About ksus yoim/lailah, it got me thinking about our tallis katan.

    How would you define ksus yoim or ksus lailah? i can think of two contrasting ways:

    Simply, ksus yoim is any beged made to be worn by day, and ksus lailah is any beged made to be worn at night.

    – this would mean, that is someone had the (strange) minhag to wear pajamas during the day, that would be considered ksus yoim for him (although it is possible that this would only be true if the beged was made specifically for him).

    Or, and this is what i think is closer to the truth; ksus yoim means a day beged. A day beged is something that has a couple of purposes, such as to keep you warm, or to protect you from the sun, or to look presentable.

    A night beged’s utility is for the night, mainly to keep one comfortable.

    If someone wears pajamas during the day, it is still a night beged, and if someone wears a suit to bed, it is still a day beged, by definition.

    So, according to the second definition here, where does our tallis katan fit in? Seemingly it is neither, it does not have the function of a night beged, nor does it have the function of a day beged. Since it needs to be a day beged to be chayav, it should be pattur from tzitzis!

    Something to think about…

    #794921
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Quark2-

    How is he like a Malach Hashem? I would think that it is because he is wearing the white sdinin (white is a color associated with malachim in other places).

    Only on erev shabbos he would wear the white sdinin? If so, why?

    Maybe it had to do with the rchitzah, perhaps in those days they wouldn’t bathe very often, so when he did the rechitzah on erev shabbos, he became like a malach hashem.

    Anyway, i think the simple answer to your question is, he would remove the sdinin that had the kilaim before Shabbos. It does not say in the gemara that he would leave them on, so it could be that he took them off.

    I tried to preclude this answer in my question as I think it is a major docheik. He (clearly) put on the ?????? ????????? lekavod Shabbos, but he took them off before Shabbos?!

    Another possibility, that might need to be explored a little more, is that the gemara in Brachos deals with someone who put on the beged bi’issur. Whereas here, the levishah of the beged was biheter.

    (it would be a chiddush to say that this should make a difference later on, after the beged is already on, but i still think that it may be possible to draw such a distinction. Since the original levishah was a ‘kum vi’eseh’ issur, that makes the whole levishah, one long kum vieseh levishah of issur. In other words, the maaseh levishah stretches out from when he put it on, until he takes it off.)

    #794922
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    quark2: Regarding ksus yom, I would say that it does have a function. The tallis katan is a garment that used to be worn on it’s own as a tunic of varying lengths. You can still see non-Jews at renfaires wearing talesim ketanim with a belt to hold the sides shut and the neck leaced up. Just because we happen to wear a second shirt over ours doesn’t make the first shirt patur.

    yitayningwut: Just a point about the source, it isn’t brought down from the Ari to wear white on shabbos. It was brought down by one of R’ Chaim Vital’s students that he (R’ Chaim) visited the student in a dream dressed all in black. The student asked why and was told that it was his punishment for not wearing white on shabbos.

    #794923
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik-

    I stand corrected then, thank you. I am admittedly not very learned in kabbala, especially being a kalte litvak and all…

    #794924
    quark2
    Member

    itchesrulik

    i am pretty sure that the caf hachaim brings it down beshaim the arizal. (although it is possible that it is a machlokes amongst the arizals talmidim)

    yitayningwut

    nice. Rav Yehudah lishitaso, rayah from tosfos in yevamos, and everything else – amazing.

    #794925
    quark2
    Member

    yitayningwut

    I touched on this earlier – is it a stirah in rashi, from 25: were ksus lailah goes by time, and elsewhere, where ksus lailah goes by the beged?

    #794926
    quark2
    Member

    itchesrulik

    You are right, that if our tallis katan would be made to have that function, then it would probably be a ksus yoim. But since our tallis katan has no function, i would say that it is neither a ksus yoim, or a ksus lailah, if you are going with the second definition that i said earlier.

    #794927
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: Nu nu, most people aren’t, least of all me. Most ashkenazim only know kaballa as it applies to history of minhagim or to chassidus.

    quark2:

    a- We’ll have to see it inside then.

    b- I’m modeh ksus yom/lailah is based on function. I’m not modeh that function is based on kavannah. In fact l’chol hadeyos the beged does not need lishma, which means that if the beged is a shirt — and any beged with a shiur is big enough — then it’s ksus yom. Of course that gives us an interesting shaila about the longer tallesim ktanim that reach to mid-thigh or lower. If they’re long enough that they look like a nightgown they may be patur altz ksus lailah!

    Also, I’d say that you’re kasha is a good reason to wear nea-tzit. They are definitely a beged with a function.

    #794928
    quark2
    Member

    ItcheSrulik

    i also agree that function is not based on kavanah, and that the beged doesn’t need lishmah. But even so, our tallis katan has no function, since we do not wear them as a shirt, or as an undershirt.

    But i’d agree with you that tzitzis that functions as an undershirt has a function, although i do not know if that is the function of a ksus yoim. That would be another shailah.

    (i also do not know if there are other reasons why not to wear such a tallis katan. Apparently it is not widespread practice in the ‘yeshiva world’, to wear such a tallis katan. the reason for this, if any, i do not know.)

    #794929
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    IIRC, The Beis Yosef in Simman Daled discusses that Sugya regarding all Shitos.

    #794930
    Josh31
    Participant

    “has no function”

    If the underlining beged (piece of clothing) has no function how do you make a Bracha with Shem and Malchus (until you get married) for the Tzitzis?

    #794931
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oish! Why in the world did I write Daled?! Well, I think it’s in Tes.

    Every garment serves a purpose, even if it isn’t seen. Quark is referring to the purposes that he mentioned as being criteria for being a day garment.

    #794932
    quark2
    Member

    josh that was exactly my original question. See the third post on this page, for more detail.

    Also, i don’t understand your post. So you do think that the tallis katan worn by the majority of frum jews, in between their shirts and their undershirts, has a function?

    Or perhaps you aren’t familiar with this kind of tallis katan at all, and the kind that you wear also serves as an undershirt (which i still don’t know if it would be considered a ‘ksus yoim’ according to the second defintion set out above, and i am inclined to think not) which led you to ask your question.

    Also, Haleivi, what is the purpose that our tallis katan beged serves (aside to make one sweaty and uncomfortable in many cases)?

    #794933
    quark2
    Member

    josh that was exactly my original question. See the third post on this page, for more detail.

    Also, i don’t understand your post. So you do think that the tallis katan worn by the majority of frum jews, in between their shirts and their undershirts, has a function?

    (the rest of my serious query was not allowed by the mods, for some reason)

    Also, Haleivi, what is the purpose that our tallis katan beged serves (aside to make one sweaty and uncomfortable in many cases)?

    #794934
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    quark2-

    I touched on this earlier – is it a stirah in rashi, from 25: were ksus lailah goes by time, and elsewhere, where ksus lailah goes by the beged?

    Regarding your query. You wrote:

    this would mean, that is someone had the (strange) minhag to wear pajamas during the day, that would be considered ksus yoim for him (although it is possible that this would only be true if the beged was made specifically for him)

    #794935
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I’m not sure you can say that once you put it on Bihetter you may keep it on, since we find by Kohanim that they must remove it after the Avoda, because of the Klayim. However, like I said earlier, they are allowed to keep it on for the amount of time it takes to get it off normally. Here too, perhaps it is Muttar to keep it on into the night for the amount of time that people normally wear day cloths at night. As a proof to this, the reason the Talmidim didn’t put on Tzitzis was because someone might put it on at night. If you must throw it off at dusk, isn’t that a much closer Chashash, that someone might leave it on?

    As for your Stira in Rashi, the Bach has an approach that explains Rashi to hold that it goes by the Begged. Where he says, he might put it on at night, it means, he might use it as a night garment.

    #794936
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    HaLeiVi-

    I’m not sure you can say that once you put it on Bihetter you may keep it on, since we find by Kohanim that they must remove it after the Avoda, because of the Klayim.

    I was thinking of this, but ?”? in the Rambam in Hil. Klei Mikdash (Perek 8) where he doesn’t say they have to take it off, so it all works out ??????.

    Here too, perhaps it is Muttar to keep it on into the night for the amount of time that people normally wear day clothes at night.

    You’re mixing up the two shitos. I was asking on the Rambam who holds it’s not dependent on day clothes or night clothes but rather on time.

    As for your Stira in Rashi, the Bach has an approach that explains Rashi to hold that it goes by the Begged. Where he says, he might put it on at night, it means, he might use it as a night garment.

    Thanks:)

    #794937
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Read it again without getting carried away by the fact that I mentioned the words day clothes. The point is that it is the reasonable amount of time to continue to keep it on, similar to quark’s Terutz just without the blanket Hetter.

    #794938
    quark2
    Member

    yitayningwut

    The stirah in rashi – i looked at rashi there again. You’re right, its not a stirah. I understood the words “gzeirah mishum ksus lailah” to mean gzeirah that he might forget to take off the sdinin before nightfall, which would imply like the Rambam. But i checked again in rashi, and that is not the way he explains it.

    About pajamas – in the first definition that i set out in the earlier post, i said that ksus lailah is anything that is ‘made’ to be worn at night. So then it could be that it doesn’t go by the individual, but rather by the maker.

    This doesn’t have to do with hazmanah or lishmah or anything like that. It is just a sevara in the concept of ksus lailah itself.

    But you can definitely argue and say that a ksus lailah is something that is worn by night, regardless of what kind of beged it really is.

    #794939
    quark2
    Member

    HaLeiVi now you have me wondering if i was answering anything with that pshat in the first place. Even if it is shev vi’al taaseh, it is still an issur of kilaim.

    #794940
    quark2
    Member

    btw it seems that the bach that haleivi referred to –

    “As for your Stira in Rashi, the Bach has an approach that explains Rashi to hold that it goes by the Begged. Where he says, he might put it on at night, it means, he might use it as a night garment.”

    addresses this ‘stirah’, so maybe i wasn’t so far off the mark.

    But if you look at rashi on 25:, it is clear that he circumvents this potential contradiction

    #794942
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    HaLeiVi-

    The point is that it is the reasonable amount of time to continue to keep it on, similar to quark’s Terutz just without the blanket Hetter.

    It’s just that this seems like like a dochek to me being that he put it on specifically for Shabbos. I think it is not reasonable to assume he took it off right away, even if you do give him a little extra time.

    quark2-

    HaLeiVi now you have me wondering if i was answering anything with that pshat in the first place. Even if it is shev vi’al taaseh, it is still an issur of kilaim.

    I had wondered about the same thing but when I checked up the Rambam in Klei Mikdash that I mentioned above I thought it worked out well.

    But you can definitely argue and say that a ksus lailah is something that is worn by night, regardless of what kind of beged it really is.

    I think that this is the pashtus.

    so maybe i wasn’t so far off the mark

    #794943
    Josh31
    Participant

    For the purpose of the prohibition of Shatnez, the article of clothing must be worn for a normal clothing type function such as protection against the cold or sun. This is from the Gemara about wearing Shatnez clothing purely to sell to non Jews who do not have this prohibition.

    Does this also apply to positive commandment of Tzitzis?

    #794944
    quark2
    Member

    josh i think that that would depend on how one understands the concept of a ‘day beged’

    #794945
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The reason for that gemara is the halacha of ??? ????? ??????. It’s because your intent is simply to advertise. I think that the heat and the cold mentioned is clearly lav davka, one is chayav for sha’atnez on a belt too. I don’t think you should have a problem with any kind of tzitzis, provided that your intent is to wear it.

    #794946
    quark2
    Member

    A belt has a different function. But for shatnez at least, some function is needed. The question is, what about tzitzis.

    I think that there is a limud from shatnez to tzitzis. But im not sure if we learn everything from one another, or just specific things. Its probably only for specific things.

    #794947
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Tosafus in Brachos 18, I think, says that the same rule applies to both. He says this while discussing Loeg Larash, regarding Klayim and Tzitzis.

    And, while checking this out yesterday, I noticed a Beis Yosef that mentions in passing that although we are wearing it only for the Mitzva, of course it is a real Begged.

    #794948
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    haleivi: It’s tes. Tzitzis begins in Ches. Daled is hanhagos b’beis hakisei IIRC.

    quark: It doesn’t have a function as a shirt because we wear another shirt over it, but l’maaseh it’s a shirt. Otherwise wearing your tallis gadol to shul on shabbos would be carrying. (It’s patur from tzitzis because you’re wearing another coat, leaving the tallis without a function.)

    #794949
    quark2
    Member

    ItcheSrulik

    i don’t know what you mean with “lmaaseh its a shirt”. For shatnez it needs to have function. And, another possible reason for it to have fuction, is because if not it wouldn’t be a day beged (see the third post on this page for more detail about that if you want).

    I don’t know about your question from hilchos shabbos. maybe the halachos of a beged in regards to carrying have different guidelines.

    #794950
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I saw the post about “day beged,” that was what prompted me to start posting in this thread again. My first response to that post was why a tallis katan is a ksus yom. It is a shirt, as evidenced by the fact that many people, Jewish and otherwise wore them as such for centuries and re-enactors still do today. Thus, it is a shirt whether we wear another one on top of it or not. I’m not sure where shatnez comes into it though.

    #794951
    papachino
    Participant

    and yeah there’s a huge inyan to wear tzitzis while you are sleeping,

    and even for schar mitzvah, unless you wake up before misheyakir (a little after dawn) you’re also mekayim the mitzvah of tzitzis while sleeping with it on [obviously only as long as you put it on with kevana to do the mitzvah and not kevana to wear a cool fashionable thing]

    #794952
    Josh31
    Participant

    With Shabbos the magical term is “Derech Malbush” (the way of wearing the item) and appears to be permitted even when the sole purpose of “wearing” the item is to get it away from an unsafe area.

    #794953
    Josh31
    Participant

    My argument is that if Tzitzis is like Shaatnez then the underlying Beged (article of clothing) has to have some positive purpose of wearing, separate from being a vehicle for fulfilling the mitzvah of Tzitzis.

    Besides protection from sun or cold clothing can be worn:

    a) for style if the Beged is visible;

    b) absorb sweat;

    c) cover nakedness;

    d) support other clothing;

    e) depict your favorite cartoon character or baseball player (even if not seen by others).

    Other purposes that would or may not qualify include:

    f) transporting the item (such as on Shabbos);

    g) selling the item such as the Shatnez (wool linen mixture) to non Jews who do not have this prohibition;

    h) show mourning such as Mordechai did when Haman issued his decree against us, and the Neturei Karta on Yom Ha-atzmaut; and

    i) inflict pain on oneself as some non Jewish religious sects do.

    #794954
    quark2
    Member

    itche

    “I saw the post about “day beged,” that was what prompted me to start posting in this thread again. My first response to that post was why a tallis katan is a ksus yom. It is a shirt, as evidenced by the fact that many people, Jewish and otherwise wore them as such for centuries and re-enactors still do today. Thus, it is a shirt whether we wear another one on top of it or not. I’m not sure where shatnez comes into it though.”

    read some of the other posts on this page. There is a limud from shatnez to tzitzis.

    As for the reenactors, i already told you that they are just wearing that garment, with nothing else. So for them, it functions like a shirt. But for us, it has zero function, and it is not even made to have any function (as a ‘day beged’).

    #794955
    quark2
    Member

    if we would make our tallis katan in a way that can be worn as a shirt, without wearing another shirt underneath, than this whole thing would not be an issue. But we don’t, and i doubt that that is happening. Maybe if some very big machmirim see this thread, they will start to do this. But very big machmirim usually don’t go on the internet.

    Maybe we should go around to rabbonim, getting signatures, like some people do for some of the wierdest issues. And i guess that this would also fall under that category. Stop wearing regular shirts, and wear tzitzis shirts.

    But its amazing that this is so unheard of, since there is a well known limud from shatnez, and like someone pointed out, that limud is for everything, according to tosfos, and we don’t know of anyone who argues. But we have never heard of anyone who makes a tzitzis shirt and wears it, like would be required for shatnez.

    If anything, this could be a reason why not to wear a tallis katan, since it could be a bracha levatalah. Which is really what this entire thread is about in the first place.

    #794957
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Using it like a Begged is the trick. For Klayim, the only Hetter is the fact that you aren’t viewing/using it as clothing. You are merely using your back as a convenient surface for showing your goods. I mentioned earlier the Beis Yosef that says explicitly that although we are only wearing it because of the Mitzva, it is a Begged.

    Also mentioned there was that even on Shabbos you would be allowed to wear it at night, since the string are an adornment, which leaves up wondering, what did Avraham Avinu do on Shabbos to be Yotze doing a Melacha?

    #794958
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Itche, I guess you missed my followup.

    #794959
    Josh31
    Participant

    I just looked up some climate data in the “alter haim” of Eastern Europe. I picked Warsaw Poland. Even in the summer, it was 54 degrees Fahrenheit (12 Celsius) when our grandfathers put on the Arba Kanfos in the morning. Hence, they had the “pleasure of warmth” from them.

    #794960
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    quark2: And around we go again. My point is that they are made so that they may be worn as shirts whether we do or not. They are thick enough to be warm, they are wide enough to wrap around the sides. They just aren’t as comfortable as the modern shirts we’re used to. You seem to be saying that because they aren’t made as the kind of shirts we wear, they aren’t derech malbush. Of course, I repeat, the undershirt tzitzis don’t have this problem.

    I know that we learn derech malbush from shatnez. I was asking why you were bringing that in when we established that it is derech malbus. I didn’t get that you were saying it wasn’t derech malbush at all.

    Haleivi: Guess I did.

    #794961
    Josh31
    Participant

    “derech malbush”

    This term can be confusing.

    It shows up in the laws of Shabbos where it is used as a means of transporting items, even when one does not benefit from wearing them. Then we have the Shaatnez case where one puts on an item “derech malbush”, but only to advertize and sell the item. Hence, “derech malbush” alone without physical benefit is not enough to create a violation of Shaatnez.

    #794962
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    That was teh point you and quark were bringing up, wasn’t it? That the limud is shatnez’s derech malbush not that of hotza’a?

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