- This topic has 72 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What do men think about how women are intrinsically on a higher spiritual level than men?
If they’re wearing high heels, I bet they are.
Men who are busy doing the Ratzon HaShem do not bother to worry about what women think.
Ask Joseph – or maybe, don’t.
They aren’t. There’s a whole thread disproving this apologetic
A man would say it’s only a woman’s concern what a man thinks a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking. A man is not concerned what a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking.
My friend’s daughter told me that her teacher taught them that girls have more binah than boys do (and she may have also said they are on a higher level), but she also added that they shouldn’t go bragging to their brothers that they are on a higher level than them.
I thought the teacher was very wise.
It’s really not worth it to get into an argument with boys/men about these things. Each gender needs to feel good about themselves. Arguing with the other gender about it doesn’t make anyone feel good about themselves.
Basically, each gender is better in different ways, and each gender needs to focus on its maalos (advantages) and not its chesronos (disadvantages). It is counter-productive to focus on the chesronos of your gender, certainly not before you have reached the stage of having enough self-esteem and self-confidence in your identity and your role that you can handle it (if that ever happens).
Therefore, it’s not a good idea to discuss this topic with the opposite gender because they have to focus on why it’s better to be a man, and you have to focus on why it’s better to be a lady, so such a discussion becomes impossible and unproductive.
This is the conclusion that I reached approximately 5 minutes ago after thinking about it for many years (and after reading some of the discussions in the CR on the topic).
Joseph, that thread didn’t “disprove” anything. First of all, there were not proofs. Second of all,the point you made there was that each one is better in different ways. Which is true. And women need to focus on the ways in which they are better and men need to focus on the ways in which they are better.
It is not productive for girls to constantly be told the ways that men are better (and vice versa).
They want them because their good people.
LB, what part of bais yaakov maidel’s post did you agree with?
Women was created after man because Hashem “saw” that man needed an “eizer k’negdo”, so she obviously had to be created on a higher spiritual level or how could she be an “eizer k’negdo” and what would have been the purpose of creating her?
But that doesn’t make her “better” than man, which is I think what Joseph was arguing about, because he thinks that women think that. Personally, I don’t know women who think that – I think that most women have inferiority complexes which is why everyone always stresses the ways in which women are on a higher level.
Let’s (as in letz) try again.
Someone truly ‘spiritual’, higher level, holier, has not need to compare, debate.
For the sake of harmony, let’s (see above) not…
LB – I read the post. I wanted to know what part you agreed with. I don’t agree with any of it. I think it’s very anti-Torah and anti-women, so I was surprised that you agree with it. It completely contradicts your OP!
LF – +1. Basically, the same thing I said above; I just use a lot more words (I’m supposed to use 9 times as many, so I guess I’m not doing so badly).
LB- I think there is some confusion regarding the topic of conversation here. No one is against women working. In the Frum world, it is very accepted for women to work.
Joseph was comparing what goes on in the secular world today versus the way things are done in the Frum world. According to the Torah, women and men have different roles. If you want to say that women are more spiritual, that can only be the case if they have a different role. It is clear that women have different roles since they have different obligations and different physical and emotional make-ups.
The Torah world did not espouse (is that the right word) the Feminist movement, or at least not every aspect of it. There is an aspect to the Feminist movement that wants women to be like men (which I think is very demeaning to women). That is what the Torah world is against and has always been against.
Of course women can have careers, but they have to aware that in general, a woman’s main tafkid is to be a wife and mother. That is what distinguishes her from men and that is why Hashem created her as a separate creation after He finished creating mankind and could have stopped there. That is why He gave her certain gifts – the Bina Yeseira and elevated spirtual level, the greater capacity for understanding emotions and relationships, her greater ability to be nurturing, etc. That was all so that she could fulfill this tafkid of being wife and mother.
Of course, in addition to being a female, she is also a person, and she has to develop the person side of her as well (and maybe first). In order to be a good wife and mother, she may need to have a career, whether for economic support of the family or for her own fulfillment. But she has to realize that her family comes first and that her main role is as wife and mother. Even women who don’t have husbands and children have to remember that they have a unique role and potential as women and they should try to find a way to fulfill that potential in other ways.
While there may have been some positive changes that came about in the not-Jewish world as a result of the Feminist movement, it did cause a decline in the appreciation of the importance of women’s role in the not-Jewish world.
In the Frum world, even though women work, they generally realize that their main purpose is to be wives and mothers and the family is greatly valued. Of course, even in the Frum world, it can be tricky to maintain the right balance in the modern world, and there probably are those who do struggle with this issue as well. But that is not what Joseph was talking about. I believe he specified that he was talking about the secular world.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think that you disagree with anything I wrote here. I think there was some confusion regarding what the topic of conversation was,imho. And I do understand why you may have thought what you thought. But having read through many of the posts that were written on the topic, I reached a different conclusion.
btw, I have noticed that many of the disagreements in the CR on this topic are based on misunderstandings.
Women Like flattery
So men say alot of things..
A man would say it’s only a woman’s concern what a man thinks a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking. A man is not concerned what a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking a man is thinking a woman is thinking.
Little froggie ,that’s a great one!
It is not that all women are on a higher spiritual plane than all men. Women have an easier time earning olam haba than men because their floor is lower and they have less variance in spiritual achievement.
Mashal l’ma hadavar doma:
Women are like professionals, doctors and lawyers. The average doctor or lawyer will have a pretty decent salary and the top doctors an lawyers will have a fantastic salary.
Men are like businessmen and entrepeneurs. On average they will earn less than the doctor or the lawyer. But the best will far out-earn the top doctors and lawyers while the worst go bankrupt.
More mitzvos means more opportunity to grow and gain spiritually but it also means more opportunity to fail and fall.
benignuman: Why do you make a bracha every day of shelo asani isha? Also, the Gemorah in Berachos 17a indicates that women’s Olam HaBah is based on being a support system for their husband and sons learning Torah.
The ???? of ??? ???? ??? is an expression of appreciation for the greater opportunity afforded to men to bring themselves closer to Hashem through the performance of ????? (of which more apply to men than to women).
I’m sure most people here are familiar with the explanation that this is so because women are naturally on a higher spiritual level, and therefore do not need as much “work” to develop their relationship with Hashem (great Mashal, benignuman).
On a similar note, men apparently have a greater natural love for their children than do women, which would explain why it is the mother who needs to endure childbirth, etc…
Joseph,
1. We make the bracha of shelo asani isha because men should be thankful for the opportunity to gain greater heights than women through the increased mitzvos and Torah obligations we have.
2. The Gemara in Berachos 17a fits beautifully with what I am saying. The Gemara says that the havtacha for women to gain Olam Hamba is greater than for men. Why? The mother brings her children to cheder and gets schar, she sends her husband to learn and she gets schar. But the men only get the schar if they actually learn and they lose schar when they battel. It is easier for the ordinary woman to bring her sons/husband to learn Torah than it is for the ordinary son/husban to learn properly.
“What do men think about how women are intrinsically on a higher spiritual level than men?”
Can I ask what made you ask this?
Thanks for explaining.
I can assure you of one thing, which is that this is not something they only tell baaley tshuva. I’ve had quite a chareidi upbringing and I’ve heard the notion you mentioned many times.
In my opinion, if they don’t tell this to boys in the yeshivot it’s because this is simply not something central to judaism. The question “who is better” is not relevant to observing torah. There are much more practical guidlines about the way men and women should interact. The subject is usually brought up to explain some things in the halacha that are sometimes perceived as being against women.
I want to add one other thing later I hope I have the time.
I do not believe women are on an intrinsically higher spiritual level than men. Based on experience the people who say it have a very hard time coming up with any place in Chazal, Rishonim etc. that say it. I was told that one of the gedoily hador in the 1970s was so upset when he first heard a speaker say that women “don’t need to do” Mitzvas Esey Shzman Grama because they are on a higher level that he publicly got up and protested (in middle of the speech) the zilzul in Mitzvas (Esey Shzman Grama)
If there was any real source that gadol would have known about it.
And of course I add my line to that:
And Goyim are even on a higher level – they don’t need any mitzvohs.
The Maharal in Tiferes Yisroel 4 and 28 states that men have chochma yesayrah. He also says men are more ruchniyus in general.
Other authorities that either explicitly or implicitly contradict the notion of generally higher spirituality in women include Rambam, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Tur, Orach Chaim 46; Akeidas Yitzchak, Bereishis 6; Bartenura, Mishnah Horarios 3:7; Taz, Orach Chaim 46; Zies Ra’anan (Magen Avraham), Yalkut Shemoni, Shmuel 1:1; Vilna Gaon, Even Shelaima 1:8; Baal Shevet Musar, Midrash Talpiyos, Ohs Aleph, Anaf Isha; Rav Tzadock Rabinowitz, Dover Tzedeck, p. 119; R’ Avraham Yitzchak Kook, Olas Re’iah, Birchos Hashachar; R’ Moshe Feinstein, Igoros Moshe, Orach Chaim IV, 49; R’ Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Man of Faith in the Modern World, (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1989), p. 84; Lubavitcher Rebbe, Sichos in English, Iyar-Tammuz 5744, Vol. 21, pp. 69-72; R’ Avigdor Miller, Rabbi Avigdor Miller Speaks, (Brooklyn, NY: Mesorah), pp. 245-246.
Joseph I’m impressed.
Someday, can you post the relevant quotes from those sources. I know it’s a lot to ask. Maybe most if not all. Or at least some?
And if you do want to do so please post the originals, not translations. You don’t have to worry about creating too long a post… see above.
And at least yours will be a long post that provides solid information we can really sink our teeth into.
TYIA
The ???? of ??? ???? ???… I’m sure most people here are familiar with the explanation that this is so because women are naturally on a higher spiritual level, and therefore do not need as much “work” to develop their relationship with Hashem
I have indeed heard this explanation, but I’ve always wondered if there’s any real source for it… It does seem to fly in the face of the concept of ??? ????? ???????, that being chosen to perform mitzvos is indicative of a higher spiritual calling.
(Also, if one takes this theory to its logical conclusion, wouldn’t it mean the Jews are on a lower spiritual plane than non-Jews, since they have so many more mitzvos needed to help them perfect themselves?)
That being said, I’m going to re-post my two of my favorite comments from this thread:
LU:
“Basically, each gender is better in different ways, and each gender needs to focus on its maalos (advantages) and not its chesronos (disadvantages). It is counter-productive to focus on the chesronos of your gender, certainly not before you have reached the stage of having enough self-esteem and self-confidence in your identity and your role that you can handle it (if that ever happens).”
and
Person1:
“The question “who is better” is not relevant to observing torah. There are much more practical guidlines”
Well said, both of you.
And so, to answer LB’s real question:
Because I want to understand. Is this a new thing that they are telling women today? I don’t know what I believe. It’s been pitched to me as a good thing and real by kiruv. I wondered if ffb people learn this and/or ffb guys are taught this. I’ve had men tell me this is true but then again I don’t know.
It does seem that most people here (both male and female) have been told this concept, but not everyone is entirely convinced that it is “the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth”.
lightbrite: “Because I want to understand. Is this a new thing that they are telling women today? I don’t know what I believe.”
When reading the following please remember that I don’t really know you so I don’t really know if what I’m about to say is relevant to you.
What I wanted to add is that coming to the CR in your quest for the truth is not a good idea. Or for that matter, going to a random group of people on the street (even in Bney Brak) and asking them for the truth about torah is not a good idea.
There are so many great sources for understanding torah truly. There is the Rambam. The Ramban. Kuzri. Chovat Alevavot. Rishonim. Achronim. There are many great contemporary books. There are great rabanim in kiruv organizations And they are not all liars! (I’m just kidding) what I mean is find yourself a rav that you can trust. If you have trust issues with the people who tell you about the torah the way to solve these issues is not to come here.
Just because someone went to a yeshivaseminary doesn’t mean they have any idea what they are talking about. For all you know they might have slept through all the shmuses in the yeshiva. If you want to study physics you don’t just ask someone who took it in highschool to teach you. Why would you do the same with torah?
This is a really nice place to hang out with people who generally have Yiras Shomaim. But that’s it.
MW13 – thanks! and I agree about Person1’s line. Personally, I would also add LF’s line to the list: “Someone truly ‘spiritual’, higher level, holier, has not need to compare, debate.”
MW13: “The ???? of ??? ???? ???… I’m sure most people here are familiar with the explanation that this is so because women are naturally on a higher spiritual level, and therefore do not need as much “work” to develop their relationship with Hashem
I have indeed heard this explanation, but I’ve always wondered if there’s any real source for it… It does seem to fly in the face of the concept of ??? ????? ???????, that being chosen to perform mitzvos is indicative of a higher spiritual calling.
(Also, if one takes this theory to its logical conclusion, wouldn’t it mean the Jews are on a lower spiritual plane than non-Jews, since they have so many more mitzvos needed to help them perfect themselves?)”
My understanding has always been as follows: Women are on a higher spiritual level than men. They have to be since they were created to be an “ezer k’negdo” and they can only do that if they are on higher level (and no, the role of “ezer k’negdo” is not just about taking care of the physical aspects of running a household. If that were the case, we could hire goyim.).
However, it is not better to be a woman. It is actually considered better to be a man and to have more Mitzvos. That is why they say “shelo asani isha” and why there is a concept of davening to have boys. It is not better to be on a higher spiritualy level and need less Mitzvos. It is better to “need” those Mitzos. That is why it is better to be a person than to be a malach. If it were better to be on a higher spiritual level and need less Mitzvos, then it would be better to be a malach, which is not the case.
However, at the same time, one should not feel at all badly about being a girl. Hashem wants there to be girls in this world and He chose YOU to be one, and that is why we say “sheasani kirtzono”, unlike goyim who do not make such a bracha because there is NO advantage to being a goy. I think this is also why a goy can convert to being a Jew (because it is better in every way) but a woman can’t become a man. This is because there are maalos to being a girl and Hashem wants you to be a girl.
Plus, there really is so much to be happy about being a girl. And Hashem wants us to be happy about being women. Men have an obligation to be thankful that they are not women; women do not have any obligation to feel bad about being women and in fact, we are supposed to be happy we are female and make a bracha about it.
In short, theoretically, in Judaism it is considered better to be a boy, but that doesn’t mean men are better and it doesn’t mean that you should be upset that you are not one. In fact you should be happy that you are a girl because Hashem chose you to be a girl and women have a unique tafkid, and it’s geshmak to be a girl, and we have just as many opportunities to earn Olam Haba, and imho, it is 1,000 times easier to be a girl (at least nowadays). We don’t have as many nisyonos, we don’t have as many obligations, we have as many opportunities to gain Olam Haba but it easier to avoid aveiros, we have much more freedom in choosing our path in Avodas Hashem (for example, we don’t have to learn but we can choose to, we don’t have to get married but we can choose to, we don’t have to deal with learn/work/army issues to the same extent, etc), we are more emotionally healthy in general, and we are on a higher spiritual level (even if it’s not to our credit, it’s still something to be thankful about) and we don’t have to worry about bitul Torah every second.
There is no reason at all for women to feel bad about being women. But I think most women nowadays find it hard to figure out how it’s possible to think that it’s better to be a man without feeling badly about themselves. The two things are really not contradictions but it’s hard to conceptualize this. It took me a long time to be able to, and I still find it difficult to give over to others.
But what is clear to me is that Hashem wants us to be happy that we are girls and not to feel badly about it, so if reflecting on the advantages of being a man makes someone feel badly about being female, then it’s better not to do so. There is certainly no obligation to do so. And I think a girl’s obligation is to reflect on the advantages of being a girl – of which there are many, Boruch Hashem!
Like I said before, each gender should focus on the advantages of being the gender that they are while keeping in mind all the reasons they should appreciate and respect the other gender (in the form of their spouse, at least).
Women have a certain spirit
It could lofty
or it could be for evil
Females were some of the ardent,passionate supporters of nazism ,
more than the men overall were
The bolsheviks relied on hundreds and hundreds of ardent [jewish]women
“Though isn’t this judging?
Or then again we do judge in Judaism, at least the actions. But this is judging the individual.”
Is what judging? Talking about differences between men and women? Is that what you mean? If so, these differences are G-d given so it’s not a problem. It doesn’t reflect badly on the person since it’s from G-d.
Actually, it can help us to judge favorably since we can say that “Moshe did x,y,z because he is a man and men aren’t as sensitive by nature so he didn’t realize that I would be insulted” for example.
A friend of mine told me that she has an American friend married to an Israeli. Her friend told her that it’s great for shalom bayis because anything she does that bothers her husband, he just assumes it’s because she’s American. Same idea here – just blame it on their gender.
LU,
You really hit the proverbial nail on the head with your
” but I’ve always wondered if there’s any real source for it… It does seem to fly in the face of the concept of ??? ????? ???????,
……”
It should become the go-to on the subject
Everything added is superfluous
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.