Working frowned upon in Yeshivos?

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  • #962467

    jbaldy22
    Member

    @Feif Un

    Had a similar experience in 9th grade. met the rebbe years later at a chasuna and he still refused to have a conversation with me. thought it was kind of odd that someone would hold a grudge for that long.

    #962468

    writersoul
    Member

    Sam2: “Rabbi Altusky was trying to persuade a young man to stay in Yeshiva. Don’t take what he said literally.”

    Wait, so because it’s just a sales pitch, he’s allowed, depending on what you mean by this statement, to either lie about the best thing to do or to guide someone wrongly?

    Baruch atah Hashem…she’asani kirtzono. Or rather baruch atah Hashem… that I go to a school where they don’t brainwash (yet- I’m not in twelfth yet).

    #962469

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Wait, so because it’s just a sales pitch, he’s allowed, depending on what you mean by this statement, to either lie about the best thing to do or to guide someone wrongly?

    That is what it would seem, no?

    Baruch atah Hashem…she’asani kirtzono. Or rather baruch atah Hashem… that I go to a school where they don’t brainwash (yet- I’m not in twelfth yet).

    Just wait til you get to Sem…..

    #962470

    simcha613
    Participant

    I’ve always had an issue with women working in order to support their husbands in learning. Women ideally aren’t supposed to work. They’re supposed to be full time mothers. Kol kevudah bas melech penimah- tznius seems to say that a woman should be living her life in private, not in public. Now, if a woman decides to work because of her menuchas hanefesh (she can’t be in the house all day) or because her husband’s salary isn’t enough to provide for the family, that’s one thing. There is no issur for a woman to work, it’s just a hashkafic issue. I don’t think this hashkafic issue is a reason for a woman to live with less menuchas hanefesh or in poverty (assuming no actual halachos are broken).

    Working to support a husband in learning is different though. Talmud Torah is not just an ends in and of itself, it’s also a means to an end. The end being living a life of more Avodas Hashem. Talmud Torah is supposed to make us (and our families) better ovdei Hashem. It doesn’t seem like we’re suppose to make concessions in our Avodas Hashem, and our (or our wife’s) tznius in order to learn Torah. That seems to be backwards. Talmud Torah is supposed to lead to a life of greater tznius, not the other way around.

    #962471

    benignuman
    Participant

    writersoul,

    I wrote that not Sam2 (unless he wrote it too).

    It is a common, when one is trying to convince someone else to take a particular course of conduct, to speak in exaggerated or absolute terms even though it is not literally true as such. Maybe you don’t do this (although watch what you say for a week and see) but the vast, vast majority of the population does. Chazal did it too.

    Rabbi Altusky wasn’t lying. He truly believed that for this young man, at his stage in life, college would be bad. Rabbi Altusky presumably believed that he was guiding this young man rightly.

    Rabbis, Chazal and people in general speak in absolutes all the time without meaning it literally. The problem is that a small subset of the population is overly literal and misses it.

    #962472

    Health
    Participant

    simcha613 -“I’ve always had an issue with women working in order to support their husbands in learning. Women ideally aren’t supposed to work. They’re supposed to be full time mothers.”

    I’m not objecting to your post because of your opinion on Kollel. I personally think going into Kollel should Not be based on PC, which it is nowadays.

    The point I want to make is that there is a Chiyuv for women to work. (I’m not going to quote all the Gemmoras -look them up.)Once upon a time they could do this from out of the home. Nowadays most can’t find Parnossa working out of the home – so they have to Go Out to work.

    #962473

    oomis
    Participant

    Health, with all due respect – There is a chiyuv for a woman to be the akeres habayis, to raise the next generation of Torah-observant Jews, and to be an eizer k’negdo for ehr husband. That does not mean they have a chiyuv to do both their own job AND his. And if for whatever reason it seems you don’t feel that what a Stay at Home Wife/Mom does is work, you have no clue about how much harder it is, than to be out in the workforce. I do however, agree with your point that there is little parnassah in the home, hence they often need to go out to work to get PAID. But don’t try to find a Gemorah that APPLAUDS a woman neglecting her home responsibilities. Our grandkdis are being raised by nannies, more often than not NON-Jewish ones. That cannot be a GOOD thing.

    #962474

    golfer
    Participant

    oomis, +1

    No idea what makes Health think women are obligated to leave their homes & work. Didn’t see that anywhere in my Kesuba.

    #962475

    OURtorah
    Participant

    Bnei Yeshivos should not be put down for wanting to go out into the workfield, UNLESS they will not have a set learning seder with a chevrusa everyday! Even then, if they are choosing to not be serious about their learning, no one should shun them, rather they should be helped in a sensative way.

    The ideal of all our lives should be to have men learning all day in Beis Medreshim and Koillels. Although every Jew’s ideal should be this, it isn’t practical in our day and age where everything is so expensive. If a Bocher does decide to join the workforce, he should not be put down. rather he should be guided to still lead a Torah lifesytle, and raise his kids in a Torah oriented home, because it is possible.

    #962476

    ROB- that’s not the Rambam she’s referring to, the Rambam says that one should break up his LEARNING day into 3, and says “keitzad haya ba’al umonas v’haya osek b’mlachto 3 sha’os v’lomed 9 sha’os, etc.” that’s the one, I forget off hand where it is, (I don’t have a Rambam handy now, sorry) but it’s in hilchos Talmud Torah, the 2nd or 3rd Perek I believe, but I’m not sure exactly. And the Biur Halacha I quoted earlier (resh lamed alef) is the one where he calls it a hor’as sha’ah like she said as well.

    #962477

    Health
    Participant

    oomis -“Health, with all due respect – There is a chiyuv for a woman to be the akeres habayis, to raise the next generation of Torah-observant Jews, and to be an eizer k’negdo for ehr husband. That does not mean they have a chiyuv to do both their own job AND his. And if for whatever reason it seems you don’t feel that what a Stay at Home Wife/Mom does is work, you have no clue about how much harder it is, than to be out in the workforce.”

    Your post touches on many issues and some aren’t related. I wasn’t talking about Kollel vs. Non-kollel. Yes, there is a Chiyuv for a woman to work, no matter what the husband does.

    “I do however, agree with your point that there is little parnassah in the home, hence they often need to go out to work to get PAID. But don’t try to find a Gemorah that APPLAUDS a woman neglecting her home responsibilities.”

    They aren’t allowed to trade one for another. A woman has both responsibilities.

    “Our grandkdis are being raised by nannies, more often than not NON-Jewish ones. That cannot be a GOOD thing.”

    This is wrong to hire Goyim! Here in Lakewood, almost e/o has Frum babysitters, whether in their own home or elsewhere.

    #962478

    Health
    Participant

    golfer -“No idea what makes Health think women are obligated to leave their homes & work. Didn’t see that anywhere in my Kesuba.”

    Sorry, not every Halacha is in the Kesuba. Look in the Gemmora, Rambam and Shulchan Aruch and then come back.

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