Would you ever withhold a ???

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  • #601452
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is a flyer floating around facebook, with a picture of some guy who is apparently separated from his wife and withholding a ??. And they are asking me to share it.

    Well, I feel like I’d like to know more about the story before I malign the guy. Isn’t it possible that if I knew the story, I’d agree with him?

    Let’s make up extreme examples.

    What if the wife made up stories that he was molesting the kids, and so unfairly got complete custody of the kids, and there is nothing he can do about it, because the judge believed her. And this is the only leverage he has.

    Would you side with him then? Would you withhold the get yourself?

    Let’s say also that she was responsible for breaking up the marriage, when she cheated on him with his brother.

    How about now?

    Let’s say also that she in fact, is molesting the kids. And he knows that, but nobody believes him.

    How about now?

    The point I am trying to make, is that they would have us believe that withholding a get is a line you can never cross- just like genocide. But I’m not sure I buy that. I’m not sure it isn’t never a good idea.

    #962546

    I agree with popa_bar_abba.

    A more realistic and common example is the wife uses a non-Jewish court in violation of halacha (halacha generally strictly prohibits the usage of non-Jewish courts) to adjudicate

    asset separation

    child custody/visitation

    child support

    alimony

    all in accordance with secular law as opposed to Jewish law on the above matters, as is required according to halacha. So, in effect, she insists on utilizing non-Jewish law for almost all the divorce issues (since secular law is far more beneficial to the wife than Jewish law/halacha is) and then immediately turns around and demands Jewish law/halacha be invoked in issuing the get/divorce — right after eschewing Jewish law/halacha when it wasn’t to her favor.

    So after stealing his money (halacha asserts he generally owns all post-marital assets while secular law is generally 50/50) and denying him custody/visitation of his children — all in contravention of Jewish law — she then suddenly invokes Jewish law regarding demanding a get? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    #962547
    estrapade
    Member

    I used to believe that withholding a Get is never a legitimate means while negotiating. However, I’ve been involved with a few cases where the woman got her Get and the husband (and children) suffered grieve injustices as a result.

    Withholding a Get is an incredibly complicated matter, and whilst it is rarely justified, there are certain circumstances where it would be most appropriate.

    #962548
    good.jew
    Member

    I think Popa’s dubtitle should be “totally retarded”

    Mod’s please consider this request

    #962549

    I don’t think the example of her cheating is a good one, since under Jewish law in such a situation he is required to divorce her even if they both would have liked to stay married after that.


    Another factor in this discussion is that a woman is not entitled to a get/divorce under Jewish law simply because she demands one. Jewish law stipulates the circumstances when she is or is not entitled to a divorce.

    #962550
    oomis
    Participant

    The issue is not of whether or not there is another side to the story. It is a mitzvah to give a Get when a marriage is over, and a man who deliberately withholds it is oveir on a Mitzvas Asei. To withhold it to blackmail his wife is even worse.If he suspects she is molesting the kids, or cheating on him, or doing any of a number of bad things, let him take her to civil court and fight for custody. But one thing should not preclude the other. IMO.

    #962551
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Your extreme example is realer than you think – little random me even knows a case eerily similar (B”H resolved).

    It’s kind of ironic, really. In order to even out the playing ground, women gain the sympathy advantage – which they in turn use to abuse the men. But I guess it’s inevitable.

    #962552
    amichai
    Participant

    I’m not so sure even if you find out the story that you should spread it. unless you personally know a rav that is dealing with the couple and asks for your help. Its a two sided story.

    #962553
    aries2756
    Participant

    Its never a good idea, if the marriage is over, give a get.

    #962554
    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Popa,

    The examples you gave would be cut and dry proof that a guy like that

    would WANT to give a woman a Get. Why would he withhold it and delay his chances of moving on with someone who is less of a lunatic?!

    #962555
    mdd
    Member

    Oomis, there is no such a mitsva ase, amd the marriage is not over until there is a get. As the Horses Moth(??!) pointed out there are situations where she is entitled to demand a get and there others when she is not.

    #962556
    Sam2
    Participant

    Whether or not it is ever proper to withhold a Get, withholding one is not something to be done lightly and definitely a concept that should not be discussed publicly.

    #962557
    WIY
    Member

    If this is a Halachic issue then what is the purpose of the discussion. We must do Halacha regardless of how we feel. Sometimes keeping Halacha may not be comfortable and may sometimes let the “bad guy” win but we have to remember that Hashem runs the world and its our job to keep Halacha. He will take care of making things “right.”

    #962558
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Its never a good idea, if the marriage is over, give a get.

    Never is a very unforgiving word. There are occasions where rabbonim will advise withholding a get because it’s his only leverage.

    It might be rare, though.

    That was also a big “if”. Without knowing details, it may just be that although the woman is demanding a get, there really is still hope for the marriage. Popa is right; without knowing all the details well, it’s unwise to mix in.

    #962559
    oomis
    Participant

    MDD, with all due respect to you, the Torah specifically says that if a man finds something unseemly in his wife, (and the Gemarah goes so far as to say even if she burns his meals), he should give her a sefer kritut, a GET. That most certainly is a mitzvas asei.

    It is not a mitzvah to WANT to divorce, but once that marriage is emotionally and physically over, it is a mitzvah to give her a Get, so she is free to marry someone else if she so desires. E.g. al pi Torah, it is an aveirah to withhhold it, and a man who does so is intransigent and a rasha, even if he is a “nice guy.” He may feel he has very solid reasons for doing so, but that is for a court fight, NOT a GET fight. IMO, men who look for reasons to withhold a GET, even from the most obnoxious, disgusting, shrew of a wife, are doing it out of revenge. It certainly is not consistent with Torah observance. The fact that a woman may in some circumstances demand a GET has not made it easier for women to get one from the husbands who really don’t care about what the Torah actually mandates in these circumstances. Many men are also having problems with women who refuse to accept and use the kids as leverage. That is sad and tragic, but the GET should not be a tool in this. Go to the secular courts and fight for your rights, but give a GET when one is supposed to be given.

    #962560
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I am talking about where it is for leverage (extortion), not revenge.

    To those saying to settle the fights in court- it is assur to take a jew to a secular court. (Actually, it is even assur to take a goy, according to some shittos.)

    Also, my hypothetical built in other elements which may not be settled properly in court. Like suppose she makes up stories that he molests the kids, and she got a restraining order against him so that he isn’t allowed to ever see his kids until they are 18, and the court didn’t believe him.

    Do you think this issue will split down the gender line? Is that strange? Don’t the women here have brothers, and the men here have sisters?

    #962561
    yichusdik
    Participant

    My marriage recently ended, and at the outset of the separation things were pretty ugly. Nonetheless, and after working on reconciling for a number of months, and finally determining the marriage was over, I gave the get and would never have held it over her head, even if I had had to fight tooth and nail in beis din, court, or anywhere else for my rights (b’h didn’t work out that I had to). It is just wrong and flies in the face of everything that I believe about yashrus and treating a fellow human being, even one I couldn’t live with anymore, with respect. It would have been a terrible lesson to our children, who are old enough to understand the implications of withholding. My relationship with them and the respect I hope they will have for me is worth more than the leverage a get presents. I can see no valid reson for withholding a get. If there arte circumstances where the woman is acting in a cruel and manipulative way, there are other, better means to fight, that don’t compromise the conscience or dishonour the soul.

    #962562
    adams
    Participant

    personally I cannot imagine withholding. But in my experience my wife has been more than good to me so I think that would temper it.

    The only case I can see is that I want to move to EY ‘some day’ and she is more American, than anyone I know.

    But of course who is to say what will happen.

    In some cases, suppose the husband wants to move to EY and the wife refuses.

    Now he knows he will need a lot of finances to make this move.

    So that is where it might get tricky.

    Are you justified because you are moving to EY?

    #962563
    aries2756
    Participant

    DY, I don’t know which Rabbonim you are talking about, but “leverage” means blackmail, and I don’t know any Rabbonim who believe that blackmail is permitted according to the Torah. It isn’t. So no matter which way you twist and turn it, it is still blackmail. Of course if you are trying to get me to say there are Rabbonim that will of course advise you otherwise, it is you who said it not me.

    #962564
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Aries,

    Leverage doesn’t mean blackmail. I am thinking of a particular case in which one of the gedolim advised an acquaintance of mine to hold off on the get until she allowed him to have visitation with his children.

    B”H, several years later, both are remarried with wonderful families, and they are able to be civil to each other when dealing with their children. He even ultimately got an apology from her father for the way he was treated during the whole process.

    I really wasn’t trying to “get” you to say anything. 🙂

    #962565
    oomis
    Participant

    Yichusdik, I am so sorry for your tzaar, but I am really impressed with the maturity of how you handled this. Your kids will be the primary beneficiaries of your seicheldig and responsible behavior.

    #962566
    oomis
    Participant

    It is not assur to go to the secular courts when the fight involves secular laws. The Beis Din does not enforce who gets custody of the kids, or visitation rights. That is determined by the secular judge. We all have to answer to the law of the land.

    #962567

    oomis: Sure it is assur to go to the secular courts even if it “involves secular laws”. Besides, halacha tells us who should have custody, halacha tells us how to split the assets, and it is prohibited according to halacha to use non-Jewish laws on these matters instead of basing the decision on how Jewish law/halacha rules on these matters.

    #962568
    Sam2
    Participant

    The Horses Mouth: Actually, as far as I know Halacha doesn’t mention custody. I always wondered about that. If you have any Mekoros I would love to see them. Also, Halachah tells us when it’s Muttar to go to secular courts, because there are some cases where it is.

    #962569
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    oomis: Indeed, I am quite sure it is assur to use a secular court, even where the fight involves secular laws.

    Every fight involves secular laws- whether I owe you money for crashing your car involves secular laws.

    #962570

    Sam: I don’t have the mekoros, but from distant memory I believe if it is a boy it depends if he is nursing or not. While he is nursing age halacha grants custody to the mother. Above nursing age halacha grants custody to the father. Girls may or may not be different.

    #962571
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    “.. We all have to answer to the law of the land.”

    Let me try to fix that one. We all have to answer to the Ribono Shel Olam. Also, being that we’re in a foreign land, we follow its laws too, as much as Halachah permits.

    #962572
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    popa, what about just me’s friend’s case? Where the ex formally agreed to pay a certain amount, shutting her out of government aid, but then wouldn’t pay up? How is she supposed to get the money?

    #962573
    feivel
    Participant

    i know (knew) someone, went to high school with him. he died suddenly in his forties of an unusual heart condition. about 2 weeks after he told Bais Din he would not ever, under any circumstances, ever give his wife a Get.

    #962574
    Sam2
    Participant

    THM: There’s a Tosafos in Yevamos that for sure doesn’t sound like that. A woman is not even obligated to nurse her son after a divorce (maybe, it’s a Machlokes there) if she doesn’t want to.

    #962575
    Bowwow
    Participant

    I am in the midst of going through a divorce and all I can say is that a well respected marriage counselor told me {sic} “when rosh hashona and yom kippur come around he hopes that all of those who are withholding a get for extortion (financial) purposes are not granted what they are davening for”

    #962576
    essy8
    Member

    i agree with Popa. my cousin went through a terrible divorce several years ago…basically she wouldn’t speak to anyone, contact anyone, just up and disappeared after 3 months of marriage. she had the baby and didn’t contact anyone. turned out at the end she was having an super-emotional (prob. not physical) relationship with someone in a “madrich” position (she was a BT).

    long story short, my cousin was advised my beis din (when she wouldn’t show) to continue with legal divorce without her presence and wait on the get till visitation (he had never seen his daughter-she wouldn’t let) and stuff were settled.

    not saying its “ok” but…ppl tend to forget that men can also be abused and mistreated! and with daas torah, yes it can sometimes be used as leverage.

    #962577
    essy8
    Member

    there’s a story with R’ Akiva Eiger telling a husband who refuses to give a get that his wife WILL be freed, either through a get or thru his death. the man says “never” and walks out, tripping on the steps and breaking his neck.

    #962578
    oomis
    Participant

    oomis: Sure it is assur to go to the secular courts even if it “involves secular laws”. Besides, halacha tells us who should have custody, halacha tells us how to split the assets, and it is prohibited according to halacha to use non-Jewish laws on these matters instead of basing the decision on how Jewish law/halacha rules on these matters. “

    When there are issues of abusive relationships, the secular courts WILL be involved, whether the yidden involved want them to or not. Dina d’malchusah dina. But I understand what you and others have said.

    #962579
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa – Not everyone holds it is so simple. Did you read that Ami article?

    #962580
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Nope. What did it say?

    #962581
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Oomis,

    It’s very questionable (to put it mildly) if dina d’malchusa applies to this. However, it might be permissible to use the secular courts in some cases; abuse might fit the bill, if it’s the only way to protect the victim, but of course, a posek must be consulted.

    #962582
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Or maybe it was Mishpacha? The one a little while back interviewing Rav Shachter about the current Beis Din system. He has his criticisms of it, and mentioned in passing that he knows this supposedly prominent rav who won’t go on record but he holds people should go straight to secular court. To the best of my knowledge this opinion is shared to different extents by different rabbanim, even if the general rule, according to the mainstream view, is as you have said.

    #962583
    adocs
    Participant

    this is mainly directed at oomis and aries, but I welcome comments from anybody.

    lets switch things around a bit.

    a man wants to divorce his wife. She being a good bas yisroel has decided that she will not muddy things by going to secular court and will deal through bais din. Meanwhile, he has started spreading false rumors that she’s crazy and abuses the kids. unfortunately he is believed. For the “safety of the kids” he’s trying to get full custody. He throws in a few “facts” about how he was verbally abused for all these years. She stands to get almost nothing financially. (they rent an apartment so there’s no real assets to speak of)

    This gem of a guy has already found someone else to marry. Only thing stopping him is the wife’s reluctance to accept the get. She knows that once she accepts it she is left with nothing and loses her kids.

    Does she stand her ground, knowing it’s the only leverage she has to see her kids again? or does she accept the get and let him “move on” because you never ever ever play games with a get once the marriage is over?

    #962584
    mdd
    Member

    Oomis, it is not up to us to darshin pesukim — it was up to Chazal. With all due respect to you, as a man, I know Halocha better. Sometimes, she is entitled to demand a get, and, sometimes, she is not.

    As far as the darshining pesukim goes, the Torah says that if one wants to divorce one’s wife, it must be through a get.

    #962585
    yichusdik
    Participant

    With all due respect to you, mdd, you may indeed know halocho better than oomis or me or anyone else. And, as a man, and as someone who has been in the parsha, you are right, sometimes a woman has a right to demand a get, and sometimes not. But that has nothing at all to do with the yashrus and the right choice of the man giving the get. He is either glach or he isn’t. But coming back to you, you may be a boki, or an illui, or both, but it has nothing to do with your gender.

    #962586

    Yichusdik: If a woman demands a get in a situation where halacha does not entitle her to demand one, then there is no yashrus or glachness or moral imperative for her husband to give her one.

    #962587
    mdd
    Member

    It certainly has to do with the gender – men learn Gemora and S.A., and women don’t.

    #962588
    Sam2
    Participant

    MDD: And a woman who does…? 🙂

    #962589
    just me
    Participant

    I am not a posek or a talmid Chacham, but it seems to me that to get a divorce, you have to go to a civil court. It may be an uncontested divorce or not, but marriage in the US is a civil matter and a secular divorce is necessarily.

    I agree that there may be a FEW times when withholding or not accepting a get might be legitimate, but the average case involves a man who just wants to hurt the woman. Sorry, but that is how it is.

    I don’t know if the picture circulating on FB is the same one that there was a demonstration about on Sunday, but if that is the case, Rabbi Auman from the YI of Flatbush was there and encouraged people to go. Knowing him, I’m sure he checked out the details and knew the husband was wrong.

    #962590
    aries2756
    Participant

    adocs, Men can get a “get” whenever they want to. They get what is called “heter meah rabbonim” and they are done. (I hope I got that right), so men are never stuck like women in an agunah situation. However, I am glad you brought up this scenario because it does point out how men abuse their wives quite often unfortunately and how beis din just listens to them and does nothing to protect the woman involved.

    #962591
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Men can get a “get” whenever they want to. They get what is called “heter meah rabbonim” and they are done

    That is not totally accurate.

    There are shady heter meah rabbanims that you can buy for about 50k (one of the frum magazines ran an article bashing it a year ago).

    However, if a man cares about halacha, he will not rely on a shady one, and getting a real one is about impossible. Thus, if the man cares about halacha, and the wife wants to withhold the get- she is completely able to as much as he is.

    I have heard that incidents of women withholding the get are as common as men withholding it. It is a bit funny that one never hears anything about it, and that I have never seen a single woman on a seruv listing in the Jewish Press. (I think we had a thread about that once.) http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/no-women-not-on-the-seruv-list In fact, looking at that thread, you can see that our MIA charlie hall said that statistic.

    #962592
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They get what is called “heter meah rabbonim” and they are done.

    Very rare.

    #962593

    Just me: After the beis din adjudicates all the divorce issues, including asset separation and custody al pi halacha, it can be legally filed uncontested by both parties accepted based upon the Beis Din’s decision, based on Jewish law. There is no excuse to have it decided based on secular law in contravention with halacha (an extremely severe violation of halacha).

    Also, in most cases in fact where this occurs (which is actually a very small number of get cases), there is in fact a legitimate reason for its withholding.

    #962594
    yael.e
    Participant

    popa,

    you are right that there are 2 sides to every story. I personally know of such a case (maybe its even the case you are referring to right now). one should never malign another jew unless he personally knows all the facts first. Women (as well as men) can do some pretty nasty things to each other in such situations.

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