Xmas and Christians

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  • #601224
    NYBD
    Member

    There are some people who hold not say the word ‘Christmas’, instead using ‘Xmas’, purportedly because it is forbidden to say the word ‘Christ'(yimach shemo). Yet,[some of] those same people use the word ‘Christian'(Xtian?) freely without regard for the[ir own] rule. ???

    #838062
    Macherish
    Member

    Take your pick…whatever you feel like saying, say. Just respect others for their decisions.

    #838063
    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    There is nothing really wrong with saying ‘christ’ – it is just the Greek word for mashiach.

    (One could therefore translate ‘christians’ as ‘mashichists’.)

    There is something VERY wrong with saying the name ‘j’ before it, since THAT would be saying that ‘j’ is the chr…

    #838064
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The X in Xmas is not really an X, its really the Greek letter Kai which means our savior in Greek

    Those who say xmas instead of christmas are mistaken because they are the same thing.

    If you dont want to say that, then say December 25th

    #838065
    Sam2
    Participant

    There’s a thread on this already if someone can find it.

    #838066
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Xtianity is infused with non-sense. Therefore, we see this carry over when some of us try to speak about it. It’s best to ignore the topic altogether.

    #838067
    Toi
    Participant

    never thought of that. maybe cuz xmas is a compound word so your saying x as a complete word unto itself like yushke-fish. christian is refering to those who follow him ym’sh. so its a new word. just a thought.

    #838068
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Some people are inconsistent about how they apply their own rules. Generally, it’s considered rude to point this fact out to them.

    PS This is an exact duplicate of an old thread that I’m too lazy to look for. This is an exact duplicate of my response there as well.

    #838069
    yungerman1
    Participant

    Dunno. I say both.

    Do people realize that X is not just a way to avoid saying the name? The letter X is a greek symbol that refers to him.

    #838070
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Aside from Xtianity, I have employed this procedure when talking about New Jersey Governor, X Xtie.

    #838071
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Christ is the english (latin?) rendering of the greek christos which means annointed one (the greek translation of the word moshiach – most english translations of the christian bible, what they call the NT are translated from latin, which is translated from greek).

    #838072
    AinOhdMilvado
    Participant

    In the Gemara, j-boy is referred to as ‘yeshu’ – ??”? – (as roshei taivos for YEmach SH’mo U’zichro.)

    Contrary to what xtians would have us believe, his name was NOT ‘yeshua’ (meaning salvation) because the shoresh (root) letters for that word include an ‘AYIN’ – ? – and there is no ayin in ‘yeshu’.

    Chazal were successful in being mocheh his name ad k’day kach, that people think ‘yeshu’ WAS his name.

    #838073
    Sam2
    Participant

    AOM: His name was probably Yeshua, assuming he actually existed. When the Gemara refers to him, if it actually refers to him at all (it’s hard to tell because everything even possibly related to him has been censored), calls him “Oso Ha’ish”. Yeshu is a later reference, quite possibly because it can stand for Yemach Shemo Vezichro, but was also used because it functions ans a Kinui of his actual name.

    #838074
    BTGuy
    Participant

    I have an indirect question that is sorta in the same ballpark.

    Those of us who have friendly acquaintances who are not Jewish are often in a spot to respond to their holiday wishes to us, with an, “Enjoy your holiday”, or “Have a happy holiday”.

    Are we allowed to say something like that? Is it affirming some validity to what they believe, or can it be seen as just being sociable?

    Any ideas how a Jewish person responds to a friendly gentile acquaintance who wishes us to enjoy Chanuka? Can we respond with an enjoy your holiday without stumbling into avoda zora, heaven forbid???

    While I have hostile feelings to that religion, I dont necessarily have those feelings to all its’ members. In fact, many of them dont even buy into it and see the holiday as a time to be all warm and fuzzy and friendly, and to buy gifts, with no religious connection for them.

    #838075
    Sam2
    Participant

    BTGuy: To anyone but a religious Catholic it shouldn’t be a problem. To everyone else it’s either not Avodah Zarah or is about family.

    #838076
    dash™
    Participant

    Any ideas how a Jewish person responds to a friendly gentile acquaintance who wishes us to enjoy Chanuka?

    Just wish them a Happy Hannukah in return.

    #838077
    soliek
    Member

    non jews tell me merry christmas all the time. i just respond with a polite “happy holidays”

    #838078
    yentingyenta
    Participant

    BTguy, lol on x xtie.

    to the security guard at school who wished me happy holidays, i replied the same to him

    when i emailed a nonjewish classmate who ended her reply with ‘have a happy hanukah”, i responded “happy holidays to you too”. my reason? not specifying they should have a happy 25th. i could be referring to new years as well. plus on the class mate not 100% sure if she’s jewish or not.

    #838079
    yungerman1
    Participant

    BTGuy- I hope you are joking. His name is Chris – not T at the end.

    #838080
    writersoul
    Participant

    BTGuy: Why not?

    A happy holiday is a happy holiday. He’s saying “I wish you a happy holiday, whatever you may celebrate” and you’re saying the same. He’s saying it (rather than “Merry Christmas”) because he doesn’t want to step on any toes- don’t make him feel like he is, despite his best efforts.

    As far as wishing him a happy holiday, say just that- “Have a great holiday”. Focus on the family part, the food part, whatever, but you can be cheerful and nondenominational at the same time.

    However, I don’t see where avoda zara comes into play. Please explain this to me.

    #838081
    old man
    Participant

    This is a non-issue. Be cordial, be polite, say the greeting however you want, it is ok. If it makes you uncomfortable, move to Israel and you won’t have this problem.

    #838082
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi writersoul.

    I apologize if i did not state my reason clearly, but I dont want to the greeting to be thought of halachically as an affirmation of what they are doing or believing. This was brought about when I was told by someone who was learning Avoda Zora, that if you pass a church and even want to just compliment the artwork of the building or windows, we are not permitted to do so.

    Hi old man.

    I am uncomfortable with it. And, equally, I would be uncomfortable with wishing someone a happy Ramadan, but I have no plans to move to Israel because of this greeting issue. lol. By the way, are you a Neil Young fan?

    #838083
    2scents
    Participant

    I dont know what the din is. However this is what I do.

    I dont say anything to anyone. if someone tell me Happy Holidays i say Thank you!

    If they say Merry Ch..s I say oh! you have a great weekend!

    #838084
    apushatayid
    Participant

    It is a machlokes among evangelicals, and catholics what his “real” name was. whatever, it is a name. dont use the 2 word j and c together, because you are calling j the c.

    #838085
    apushatayid
    Participant

    If someone wishes me a happy holiday or happy hanuka or whatever it is they say, I reply “enjoy your time off from work”.

    #838086
    BTGuy
    Participant

    lol 2 cents. It gets the job done all the same.

    #838087
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Isn’t this whole thing sooo silly?

    How can someone, born out of wedlock, a CONFESSED mamzer, become a getshka?

    #838088
    MorahRach
    Member

    OK first of all, yes it is everyone’s preference, but to the OP…saying Christ (yemach shmo) is really inappropriate. As is acting as though Hashem is going to strike down on you if you say Christmas instead of Xmas. Especiallly those who live in the real world, in America ( not saying those are synonymous), but it is appropriate if you are greeted by someone you know is non-jewish to wish them a Merry Christmas. Yeshu was a Jew, Christianity formed itself AFTER his death. Yes it was his followers but he himself did not actually branch off and form his own religion. Saying Adolf hitler yemach shmo i think everyone can agree on, but Christ? …Not as much.

    #838089
    writersoul
    Participant

    BTGuy:

    I understood what you meant, and I still don’t get why it’s avoda zara to wish a non-Jew happy holidays. I know the halachos with a church, but I fail to see how it applies. You aren’t saying that you’re jealous of the awesome time he’s having on his holiday when you say “happy holiday”- you’re wishing him the same thing he had the menschlichkeit to say to you, that he should have a good vacation, have a good time with his family, off from work, etc. You’re not complimenting the holiday, if that’s where the whole church-complimenting thing comes in; you’re wishing him a good time on his holiday, the same way you might wish him a happy birthday.

    If there’s something I’m missing here, please tell me.

    As far as the whole thing with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named’s name, in my AP European class, we call him the J word. Not the C word. It comes up a lot in European history. One student wanted to call him Yoshke the whole time, but we were worried that someone would write it on the AP test.

    #838090
    yungerman1
    Participant

    2scents and apushatayid- If someone tells me Happy Holidays I respond with Merry Christmas.

    I have yet to see a m’kor for not saying Christmas, and this whole PC business is ridiculous.

    #838091
    yichusdik
    Participant

    The man’s name was jesus – just a name. using the other part together with it that means in Greek “anointed one” gives him a title, and that could be construed as a recognition of the way in which they regarded him contrary to Torah, and therefore should not be used. The historicity of this man is still in dispute, and even in our own traditions there is machlokes if he was the same yeshu who the Gemara wrote about or if that one lived a couple of generations earlier. not pashut. The book that was a collection of all Jewish traditions about him, called Sefer Toldos Yeshu, included every story, anecdote and legend about him and his followers, embellished as generations went by and his followers (or more accurately, the followers of the meshumad Paul, who is the biggest villain in all of this) became more powerful and more cruel, does not exist anymore and is only known through quotes and excerpts.

    As far as the greeting goes, I don’t get too exercised about it. People are genuinely making an effort (for the most part) to be a bit kinder or friendlier around this time. I’m not going to make a scene of Jewish entitlement by expecting their friendliness to conform to my worldview, and I won’t give them a greeting in return that is meaningless to them.

    #838092
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi writersoul.

    That totally makes sense.

    I was concerned, since I am around many many non-Jews who are very thoughtful in wishing me a Happy Chanuka, and are always very pleasant, if there were some parameters that I needed to learn in returning a good wish for their holiday.

    I found it hilarious that one student in your AP Euro class wanted to use the name Yoshke. lol Good for them! It reminds me of writing reports on Greece and Rome and using a lower case “g” to write about their gods. I wonder if using a capital in that context would be avoda zora for us?

    #838093
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I personally have no problem saying the words, christ, christmas or jesus (I dont believe the concept of “yemach shmo” can be applied to a mythical figure who surely did not exist as is portrayed by the gospels – but I digress, this is not the place to discuss the roots and origins of christianity). I just wont use the words jesus and christ together.

    It is not a question of PC though. It is deeply rooted in the mindset of yidden that atrocities committed in the name of jesus against jews have taken place for 2000 years and as a result there is an automatic reflex that shuns anything by or about him. It is a natural reflex to avoid it.

    #838094
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi apushatayid.

    Thank you for those three words.

    I dont understand why you had to beat around the bush and not just come out with them. lol

    Now I have to bring my computer to the mikva.

    #838095

    Zeeskeit, A technical point. A child simply born “out of wedlock” I.E. whose parents aren’t married, is not a mamzer. Only a child born of the arayos is a mamzer.

    #838096
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Anytime.

    #838097
    writersoul
    Participant

    BTGuy: The teacher really got nervous because one previous student got points off her AP test in the past by writing Yerushalayim in one of her essays- IN HEBREW!!! Now we keep it strictly English-based.

    Actually, I would totally say Merry Christmas if not for the fact that you can’t take it for granted with most people whether they’re Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, etc. I guess it’s just easier to identify Jews. So a simple Happy Holidays is really the simplest way to go.

    #838098

    BTGuy “Now I have to bring my computer to the mikva. “

    LOL!

    #838099
    agentemes
    Participant

    The Bais Havaad has a shiur on this see bais havaad on the parsha parshas Miketz

    #838100
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I was brought up in an entirely secular household. Yet, as nonreligious as my parents were, they always referred to Yoshke as Yossel. Anyone else ever heard of this?

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