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Health, I disagree – most kollel guys COULD find jobs if they wanted to. When those who leave kollel to go work do so, most find jobs pretty quickly.
When I said “act like this”, I meant l’chatchilah taking money that is supposed to only be for a b’dieved.
If kollel guys didn’t take government money, and the system was the way it should be, maybe I’d be more inclined to support them. The way it is now is a joke (a very bad one), and I won’t support it. You can argue the cause for what you do all you want, but don’t try to put the blame on other people. The blame lies squarely on those in the kollels.
The fact is that people in kollel don’t know what it means to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. Maybe they need to learn what real mesiras nefesh is. Listen to the tapes of R’ Gifter, where he speaks about what it was like in Europe. He was considered rich. Why? Because he could afford a cup of real coffee instead of chicory. R’ Avigdor Miller wore his overcoat all year round. Why? Because his clothing was so old and worn that he was ashamed to be seen in it, with all the patches showing. People then didn’t know where their next meal would come from. That is true mesiras nefesh, and it weeded out those who weren’t serious about their learning from those who were. I think we need to have this again, so we can see who the true learners are.
frumnotyeshivish -“What about what I say? There’s always opening your own yeshiva, hiring magidei shiurim whose shvers pay their salaries (it’s worth the kavod), charging tuition, and then fundraising on top of that. That doesn’t take much (non-political) talent. Also, you could build houses. Wait…you could build your own yeshiva building, buy it from yourself at a profit, sell the naming rights, fundraise for the inflated cost of the building which was covered by the naming rights, use the cash to open a girls’ elementary school, sell the name to that, hire (female) teachers at 6 dollars an hour, and collect your tuition in cash, so that your institutions could remain non-profit and you still qualify for programs.
See – it’s easy to find real honest work. My suggestions should be profitable. Worst comes to worst, you can always turn to laundering tax-deductible donations.
I would say most kollel guys are at least capable of this, wouldn’t you?”
I’d agree, but you see a lot of Jews are like you and would never support this many Yeshivos. I mean – do people like you support any real Yeshiva, not just the MO type? So it would be impossible to have this many Yeshivos -so I guess the Kollel guys are stuck in Kollel!
To Sam -How about calling this guy out on L’tzonous like you do to me? Or is there a double standard between Yeshivishe people & MO guys?
Feif Un -“Health, I disagree – most kollel guys COULD find jobs if they wanted to. When those who leave kollel to go work do so, most find jobs pretty quickly.”
I didn’t think you would agree! So you make up these statistics to go along with your beliefs, even though nothing you wrote is True!
“When I said “act like this”, I meant l’chatchilah taking money that is supposed to only be for a b’dieved.”
They only take it because it’s a B’dieved. Repeating your belief hundreds of time doesn’t make it True!
“If kollel guys didn’t take government money, and the system was the way it should be, maybe I’d be more inclined to support them.”
So they should starve while you Think about it? Good one!
“The way it is now is a joke (a very bad one), and I won’t support it.”
You wouldn’t support it – no matter what because you and other MO’s don’t believe in this way of life!
“You can argue the cause for what you do all you want, but don’t try to put the blame on other people. The blame lies squarely on those in the kollels.”
Actually I wasn’t arguing or blaming anyone. You came here cursing out Kollel guys and I defended them. So if you want to come here & blame s/o -blame the Jews who won’t support Torah for Kollel guys- so they end up having to take Gov. support!
“The fact is that people in kollel don’t know what it means to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. People then didn’t know where their next meal would come from. That is true mesiras nefesh, and it weeded out those who weren’t serious about their learning from those who were. I think we need to have this again, so we can see who the true learners are.”
Does anybody in the Goldene Medina know what Mesiras Nefesh is?
You have to live in the here & now, not in the Alte Heim!
Compared to the Jews like you in America -Kollel guys are much more Moser Nefesh in their lifestyle!
Want to know the real problem with this response?
Every paragraph ends with an exclamation point.
😉
Have an excellent Shabbos.
G@W
Feif Un -“Health, I disagree – most kollel guys COULD find jobs if they wanted to. When those who leave kollel to go work do so, most find jobs pretty quickly.”
I didn’t think you would agree! So you make up these statistics to go along with your beliefs, even though nothing you wrote is True!
“When I said “act like this”, I meant l’chatchilah taking money that is supposed to only be for a b’dieved.”
They only take it because it’s a B’dieved. Repeating your belief hundreds of time doesn’t make it True!
“If kollel guys didn’t take government money, and the system was the way it should be, maybe I’d be more inclined to support them.”
So they should starve while you Think about it? Good one!
“The way it is now is a joke (a very bad one), and I won’t support it.”
You wouldn’t support it – no matter what because you and other MO’s don’t believe in this way of life!
“You can argue the cause for what you do all you want, but don’t try to put the blame on other people. The blame lies squarely on those in the kollels.”
Actually I wasn’t arguing or blaming anyone. You came here cursing out Kollel guys and I defended them. So if you want to come here & blame s/o -blame the Jews who won’t support Torah for Kollel guys- so they end up having to take Gov. support!
“The fact is that people in kollel don’t know what it means to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. People then didn’t know where their next meal would come from. That is true mesiras nefesh, and it weeded out those who weren’t serious about their learning from those who were. I think we need to have this again, so we can see who the true learners are.”
Does anybody in the Goldene Medina know what Mesiras Nefesh is?
You have to live in the here & now, not in the Alte Heim!
Compared to the Jews like you in America -Kollel guys are much more Moser Nefesh in their lifestyle!
“…here are some other groups (not to mention any names) in America that a lot of them have been sitting around all day doing nothing except drinking Booze & taking drugs and yet there has not been any regs directed at removing them from the social programs…”
Welfare rules and regulations are constantly discussed and revised. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 was a major change in the federal program effecting millions of people.
agittayid: Your point is??
I have a question for people that are against financially supporting kollel.
Let’s say you have a yungerman in a full-time kollel who can only sit still and learn for an hour or even half an hour. Are you not being mefarnes his Torah if you help support his kollel? Is a minimum amount of hours that a person has to be able to sit and learn in order to be worthy of being supported? Is there no reason in the world to help someone learn even an additional minute?
You’re looking at it as: this guy is wasting his time because he’s not suited for sitting and learning all day. But the reality is that every day this guy shows up to kollel even if he spends 7.5 hours a day in the coffee room, he is getting 30 more minutes of learning in than he would otherwise have been getting. And he is sitting protected in the koslei beis midrash instead of the pritzusdik shvakim (which he has less tavlin to combat against). There is nothing he could be doing that would be a greater fulfillment of his time for his neshamah and for all of Klal Yisroel and all darei malah u’matah during those few minutes.
Whether kollel-life is suitable for everyone as a long-term possibility or not or even whether it is something that is suitable for so many people to be doing, the fact is that those there are learning even a little bit more than they otherwise would have been. That’s always a good thing. (Unless there’s a mitzvah she’ee efshi al yedei acheirim, in which case its still better to learn but clearly the person wasn’t zocheh. See sefer Binyan Olam also chazer Sha’ar Daled).
Why would anyone b’shitah not want to support that?
Gavra:
I don’t think one can predict the future. It is just as (im)possible to support a family and pay tuitions on a Rabbe’s salary with a spouse’s income as it is if the husband were working in a typical white-collar office job. The additional income taxes, alone, are almost punitive.
Regardless, Parnassa, like everything else, is from Hashem, not from the profession you choose. I know many klei kodesh professionals who are managing just fine and, on the other hand, non-klei kodesh professionals including lawyers, who, unfortunately, are not doing all that well, financially.
Derech HaMelech: I would say that such a person should go get a job, and learn the hour either in the morning or evening.
Derech, so you think that Hashem made a world intending for its inhabitants to waste 23.5 out of every 24 hours? A person such as you describe is clearly not doing what Hashem wants. It is also the nature of hardworking people to not sympathize with good-for-nothings. So there’s no tzad to say anyone supports such a case.
Feif un: Do you think the person who stands in the coffee room all day is likely to bother with a shiur when there’s no pressure (social or otherwise) on him to attend? I am sure you have seen what happens to some people very shortly after leaving a beis midrash environment. And if you haven’t, be happy, because it is very very sad to see.
squeak: I agree that the person I describe is clearly not doing what Hashem wants for 23.5 hours a day. But because of our support he will at least be doing what Hashem wants for .5 hours a day- and not just anything, but limud haTorah. What bigger zchus can you find than putting causing someone who otherwise might not learn at all in a position where he is learning at least a little.
Also, I’m sure you will agree that we won’t make a decision based on our natures but rather on what will elevate us above it.
Derech HaMelech: You’re wrong. See Chagigah 5b. HKBH cries for people such as that. If he’s not suited for learning then he should do his best to make as much money as possible (and learn in his free time, obviously) and support others who can learn much more.
The legislature is afraid to cut medicare because the old people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut medicaid because the “poor” people will vote them out. They are afraid to cut corn subsidies because the Iowa people will not caucus for them. “
Sadly, you are so right. But that does not mitigate the fact that these programs began solely as an adjunct to help a very small segment of the population on a TEMPORARY basis. It was never intended to be a substitute for their income when they had no intention of earning one for a lengthy (if any) amount of time. That is why we see generational welfare today. And we criticize those nisht unzereh mensnchen who take advantage of it
I think it’s a mentality that is dangerous for us. Young frum couples are learning how to work the system, i.e., get Section 8, food stamps, welfare, WIC vouchers. Some people truly do need this extra help, because they cannot get a job. That is not the case with our young couples. They are making choices in life that belie the concept of Torah WITH kemach, as I said in another post.
If our Chazal thought it was crucial for men to earn a living, EVEN AS THEY LEARN TORAH, then why have we allowed our generation of children to believe they are entitled to sit back as others earn the money for them as well as get payments from the government which they have never personally earned? (Please, don’t anybody mention Social Security – SS was taken from every paycheck my husband and I ever made, so that we should be able to collect later on. What’s worse, we originally paid taxes on the gross amount, including that money that was deducted from the paycheck for future SS, and we still have to pay taxes on the SS checks that come in each month, as new income, in spite of the fact that it was already taxed at the time the actual paychecks were issued. But I digress).
Derech- I was addressing it from two possible angles: 1) It’s not what Hashem wants 2) It’s not in the nature of people to accept that.
If Hashem wanted it, then we would have to rise above our nature. In this case it is no different from giving money to homeless men on the subway.
Sam2: According to the Maharsha, you’re understanding of “?? ???? ?????” is a reason for HKBH to rejoice.
Rather he explains that it means someone who can’t learn Torah because he is occupied with other things.
The Iyun Yaakov (in the Ein Yaakov) explains it a different way. He says it means an ?? ???? who is not able to learn but does it anyway and ends up learning with many mistakes is also called bitul Torah.
But I agree that someone who sees in himself that he is not suited for sitting and learning straight for hours is better off working to support mosdos of Torah and being kovei’ah the amount of time they are able to learn straight for Torah.
But the reality is that many of the people who stand around in the coffee room shmoozing all day may unfortunately not be the type to set aside those times. While in kollel they will certainly learn something.
The point is that in kollel you have two types, those who want to learn and those who don’t (I don’t mean that on a subconcious level even the ones who don’t want to learn don’t wish they did, ??? ????- ????? ??????). The ones who want to learn deserve to be supported because they are learning. The ones who don’t want to learn need to be in kollel all the more so that they learn at least something.
Paying 2 guys to hang out in a Kollel Coffee Room 7.5 hours a day (allowing them to learn up to 30 minutes a day) is the strongest way to undermine the status of learning and drag the Keter of Torah thru the mud with the prongs turned downwards.
If someone wanted to wage a war against Torah and had two million dollars a year to do so, he could identify the top ten places of learning and hire 20 guys to sip coffee.
Derech HaMelech -“I have a question for people that are against financially supporting kollel.”
What’s wrong with your post is -you don’t understand their mentality. These guys wouldn’t support Kollel even if the Kollel guy slept like the Gra! Finding some guy who doesn’t make the most of his time is just an excuse. Most do make the most of their time!
OOmis -“Sadly, you are so right. But that does not mitigate the fact that these programs began solely as an adjunct to help a very small segment of the population on a TEMPORARY basis. It was never intended to be a substitute for their income when they had no intention of earning one for a lengthy (if any) amount of time. That is why we see generational welfare today. And we criticize those nisht unzereh mensnchen who take advantage of it”
You people keep harping on what the program was meant for. It’s irrevelant. If a Jew is entitled – there is nothing wrong with taking. If you think Jews shouldn’t take Gov. programs then every Jew should give enough money to Kollel guys and other poor Jews-so they wouldn’t need to take!
check out the sefer ??? ?? ???? for all the answers. some were written above.
1-torah im derech eretz means bBOTH together, not only the working part.
2-the rest of the mishna – that through both the person is saved from sin. nowadays, it’s safer to sit and learn in prder to be saved from sin. going out to work will only bring you closer to sin.
3-reb yishmael is correct that many have tried and were not matzliach. that’s why most of klal yisroel doesn’t learn. those who can are from the minute.
4-that that the gemara says that many have tried like r’ yishmael and were not succesful, the gemara also says “rubam begezel” does that mean we shoul all steal to be mekayem the gemara?
5-the wifes ONLY zchus is by helping her husband and children learn, those who don’t want to be “brainwashed” should not fight to get their children into these brainwashing scools. there are enough modern scools that would gladly accept your chidren.
Above all— do your kids a favor and don’t “brainwash” them. those who were not matzliach on their own should admit it and not bass it on and try to justify it to calm their concience.
kol tuv! have a great meaningful life!
mutche from israel
If a Jew is entitled – there is nothing wrong with taking”
You miss the point entirely. NOBODY is entitled to anything. This is not an entitlement and it never was. When did you decide that the government OWES us a living?
And while it is incumbent upon ALL Jews to help each other out, and giving tzedakah is not charity, but an act of righteousness, I have NO obligation to support anyone with my wallet money or tax dollars, just because he wants to sit and learn for X number of years. My husband (who also would love to have sat and learned)and I (when I was not busy raising my children) worked very hard to put food on the table and pay our bills. We take pride in paying our own way through life. The people whom you seem to feel are owed a living either by this country or by our kehillah, have grown up with the mindset that it is “coming to them.” Wake up. It is NOT coming to them or to anyone else. Who is going to pay the way for THEIR kids when they grow up thinking this lifestyle is the norm? Certainly not their parents, who were being supported by THEIR parents? Every boy cannot be a rebbie or Rosh Yeshivah. But that is basically what they are being groomed for in the Kollel.
Btw, there very much IS something wrong with taking – unless you are also in some way giving back to the person from whom you take. Takers are users. When you take advantage of a program just because it exists, in order to avoid being a responsible adult, that is IMO very wrong. It does not build character. I am not talking about people who simply cannot earn a decent living. Those programs were set in place to help them. To HELP them, not to supplant the need for them to get a job. When we see nisht unzereh taking advantage of these programs, we are critical of them. But when Yidden circumvent the rules or play games in order to get Medicaid, food stamps, housing etc. then it suddenly becomes kosher. Except it isn’t kosher. Because when Jews are discovered playing these games, it makes the front page headlines.
Briskers say a Kal Vachomer. If working while learning is good to help fight the yetzer hora, for sure learning alone can do it. ” I created the yetzer hora and I created Torah as the tavlin for it)
OOmis -“You miss the point entirely. NOBODY is entitled to anything. This is not an entitlement and it never was. When did you decide that the government OWES us a living?”
This is a prime example of twisting s/o’s words. “Entitled” -I meant -legally able to acquire, not “Es Koomt Em”!
“I have NO obligation to support anyone with my wallet money or tax dollars, just because he wants to sit and learn for X number of years.”
And even if you did have an obligation, you wouldn’t do it anyway because you don’t believe in this way of life!
“My husband (who also would love to have sat and learned)and I (when I was not busy raising my children) worked very hard to put food on the table and pay our bills. We take pride in paying our own way through life.”
Most people use this excuse. You can use this excuse, but if you want Hashem to give you the Zecus of something called Limud Hatorah -you can do this by supporting people who do sit & learn.
“The people whom you seem to feel are owed a living either by this country or by our kehillah, have grown up with the mindset that it is “coming to them.” Wake up. It is NOT coming to them or to anyone else.”
I know most people who grow up with this minset are not from the Yeshivishe community. Most people who have this mindset are those who were spoiled rotten by their parents. It’s not usually kids of Kollel people -usually comes from people who had lots of money. While if you find people like these in the Kollel community -it’s because their parents were rich and spoiled them. At least they sit and learn and don’t do things like all other spoiled rotten kids in America.
“Who is going to pay the way for THEIR kids when they grow up thinking this lifestyle is the norm? Certainly not their parents, who were being supported by THEIR parents?”
And certainly not by the likes of you, because you don’t even support the parents whom are in Kollel. But your concern for the kids truly touches me!
“Every boy cannot be a rebbie or Rosh Yeshivah. But that is basically what they are being groomed for in the Kollel.”
NEWS FLASH -Most people who are in Kollel aren’t being Groomed for anything. There is such a thing as learning in Kollel just for the sake of learning. It’s called learning Torah Lishma.
Rav A. Kotler zt’l brought this concept to the USA.
“Btw, there very much IS something wrong with taking – unless you are also in some way giving back to the person from whom you take. Takers are users.”
Learning Torah is good for the community -so they are giving back.
“When you take advantage of a program just because it exists, in order to avoid being a responsible adult, that is IMO very wrong.”
Learning in Kollel is not taking advantage of Progams because it exists. It’s using these programs to help them stay in Kollel. Being in Kollel is being a responsible adult.
“It does not build character.”
Learning in Kollel builds more character than working for a living.
“I am not talking about people who simply cannot earn a decent living. Those programs were set in place to help them. To HELP them, not to supplant the need for them to get a job. When we see nisht unzereh taking advantage of these programs, we are critical of them.”
Perhaps people are critical because some take and do nothing constructive with their lives?
“But when Yidden circumvent the rules or play games in order to get Medicaid, food stamps, housing etc. then it suddenly becomes kosher. Except it isn’t kosher. Because when Jews are discovered playing these games, it makes the front page headlines.”
I agree that people shouldn’t steal from the programs which would include lying on your application. Most Frum Jews do not & almost all Kollel guys don’t. So – I’ll repeat – if a Jew, whether in Kollel or not, needs help making ends meet -there is nothing wrong with taking Gov. programs to accomplish this.
If this bothers you so much -get money together and start a Jewish org. that will give these people $ instead of them having to take programs. I’m sure you’ll find a lot of people joining up. Most people whom take these programs do it out of necessity, rather than desire!
Today is 123rd Yohrzeit of Moreinu hoRav Shimshon ben Refoel Hirsch ZTKLLH’H, so there was never a better time than today to relish & appreciate Torah Im Derech Eretz.
Health, there would not BE such a necessity if they would be machshiv providing for their families at least to some degree. As much as you would like to see an idealized lifestyle where men can sit and learn to their heart’s content, the reality is that THEY are responsible to provide for their wives and children according to the Torah that they are sitting and learning.
The Jewish community at large has responsibilities first and foremost to our own families. That boy in Kollel is no better than another frum Yid who learns AND works, but many people today seem to have bought into the myth that because he is sitting and learning he IS better. I have even more respect for someone who does both, because it is that much harder to do both things well.
My father O”H was a great talmid chochom who regularly gave shiurim and droshos and made time to learn every spare minute he had, on a daily basis. He also was in a healing profession and gave of his services freely to those who could not afford them and had no insurance. So don’t talk to me of “the likes of” me. You have no idea what I support and whose Torah learning I help to facilitate, or what Yeshivos I give my maaser to.
oomis- don’t hate.
I’m going to post in this thread against my better judgment, but only to respond to DH.
You assume that most people who sit in kollel and learn for about an hour a day would not do that hour if they weren’t in kollel. Have you taken a survey? I haven’t, but I know that it isn’t true for me. I can’t learn for a twelve hour yeshiva day. (At least not on a regular basis. Every once in a while during intersessions I do it.) But I am koveah itim without any social pressure, and I am far from the only one, after all I do have chavrusas ;-).
Another factor, though mostly irrelevant, is that once someone is in a situation where his “me” time is the time he takes to learn as opposed to the time he takes from learning, he may learn more.
IS:
I’m not talking about someone who is mature and takes his learning seriously, learning according to what he is able.
In the kollelim that I have been to, the ones that aren’t sitting and learning are the ones that don’t take learning seriously. Yes, some of them will mature with age. But I think where it is clear that someone in kollel will learn at least a little bit and not clear that leaving the kollel will cause someone to learn it is preferable to go with what is sure.
Mature people who do take learning seriously but can’t put in the hours on a daily basis, are already not sitting in kollel all day (v’horaya you and your chavrusas), which makes them irrelevant to this discussion.
Reb Aharon opened BMG for the elite few, the future leaders of k’lal yisroel – not anyone with a pulse and white shirt. That was Reb Shneur (the pulse part, the white shirt part came slightly later, likely as a result). He had his reasons I’m sure (good ones – likely involving assimilation). But that way is the chiddush. The way klal yisroel was always (since we entered Israel the first time) set up was that the vast majority of men worked, while the elite few led. See rashi on Ish echad me’elef matzasi in Koheles. IMO if Reb Shneur were around today he would encourage more people to go out to work. Either way, a man has a responsibility to work and support his family. If he has a holy family (that allows him to shirk his responsibility in favor of doing holy, important things), and is successful at learning, there is nothing greater, as long as he remembers that he must sacrifice, and that his wife can force him at any time to live up to his promises. As far as taking Gov. handouts – if the family is so willing to sacrifice their dignity in order to learn – good for them. As long as they remember that it is wrong to take – even gifts that are intended for them – let alone programs. Sonei matanos yichyeh – means to hate money/gifts you don’t earn. You don’t earn foodstamps. The only way to justify it is if you love learning more than you hate taking – and that should be a high standard.
OOmis -“Health, there would not BE such a necessity if they would be machshiv providing for their families at least to some degree.”
They are Machshiv it -just they are Machshiv learning all day more!
“As much as you would like to see an idealized lifestyle where men can sit and learn to their heart’s content, the reality is that THEY are responsible to provide for their wives and children according to the Torah that they are sitting and learning.”
They are responsible, but s/o who marries a Kollel guy willingly takes over that responsibilty. It wasn’t a shotgun wedding.
“The Jewish community at large has responsibilities first and foremost to our own families. That boy in Kollel is no better than another frum Yid who learns AND works, but many people today seem to have bought into the myth that because he is sitting and learning he IS better.”
I haven’t bought into that myth, maybe others have. Anything in life can be done Lshem Shomayim -so if the working guy is doing it Lshem Shomayim he is the same as the learning guy doing it Lshem Shomayim. But if the learning guy is poor -it’s a Mitzva to give him Tzedaka. The same would apply to the working guy, but supporting a poor Kollel guy -you get another Mitzva of supporting Torah!
“I have even more respect for someone who does both, because it is that much harder to do both things well.”
Not True! There are plenty of jobs where people don’t work so hard. Very few in America truly work hard. Whom are you kidding?
And then going to a Shiur for a hour is Not as hard as learning by yourself or with a Chavrusa.
“My father O”H was a great talmid chochom who regularly gave shiurim and droshos and made time to learn every spare minute he had, on a daily basis. He also was in a healing profession and gave of his services freely to those who could not afford them and had no insurance. So don’t talk to me of “the likes of” me.
You have no idea what I support and whose Torah learning I help to facilitate, or what Yeshivos I give my maaser to.”
When I say the “likes of you”, I mean s/o who doesn’t believe that Kollel is a way of life and it should be supported. This you have readily admitted to -so why are getting all defensive now?
Did you learn your Hashkofos from your father -namely that noone should sit in Kollel?
Eagerly awaiting your next post. This is becoming very enjoyable! 😉
Another Pshat in that Gemara about Shlosha HKB”H Boche is the Maharal, that the crying is not a sign that he shouldn’t do it. On the contrary. It is like emotional tears from a meaningful event.
As far as the Mishna and its Meforshim are concerned, the Pshat is stated simply in the Bartenura that the problem is when you don’t have any income. There are references throughout the Gemara of the Tzurba Derabanan being supported by the Yeshiva.
I once saw that the Zohar Hakadosh says about the refusal to support Torah that it gives support to the Nachash (Amalek), that doesn’t come with its own bipods. Close to the war there were Gedolim that tried to rectify the situation by openning Yeshivos and programs. It was the most natural reaction to the war, in its aftermath, to rectify the situation and start Kollelim.
Before WW2, the concept of Kollel didn’t exist. Men worked for a living and put bread on the table (as per signed contract called KESUBA!). With the establishment of the Medina (shall I rinse my mouth?), Kollel became the way out of the army for religious boys/men. It started as a “bedi’eved”, and ultimately Kollel life became a “lechatchila”.
Yeshivos and seminaries brainwashed their youth that “staying in learning” is the ultimate sacrifice for Torah. At whose expense? Boys were instructed to look for rich fathers in law. Women were instructed to take upon themselves the yoke of parnassa.
The results speak for themselves:
-Fathers are collapsing and dying of heart attacks from the financial strain of supporting Kollel children.
-Women have become martyrs working like horses at full-time jobs, raising kids and running homes.
-Bnei Brak has the highest percentage of children living below the poverty line.
-The Kollelniks are frustrated and unfulfilled for having been robbed of their role as provider of the family. Consequently their Torah learning is not so serious (to put it mildly).
It’s a failed system, and people are waking up to its realities.
Gavra:
I don’t think one can predict the future. It is just as (im)possible to support a family and pay tuitions on a Rabbe’s salary with a spouse’s income as it is if the husband were working in a typical white-collar office job. The additional income taxes, alone, are almost punitive.
Regardless, Parnassa, like everything else, is from Hashem, not from the profession you choose. I know many klei kodesh professionals who are managing just fine and, on the other hand, non-klei kodesh professionals including lawyers, who, unfortunately, are not doing all that well, financially.
I’ll respond to the first point first:
Even if you are a Rebbe, you are still mechuyav to maximize your earnings as to not take tzedaka (or less tzedaka) from the Klal (which would mean tutoring, working nights, etc., and would still not be enough if you start at 25K for a Rebbe (BH, our school does pay more)) I don’t know what the “Typical office white collar job” is. If you are dealing with someone who had a serious education (which is an issue in of itself), most of those working will make six figures (or close to it) within 10 years of starting, once again, assuming an education. I even know a number of OT/PT’s who make six figures. It’s not difficult, but you do have to work hard! If both spouses work, there should be enough to support a decent sized family.
Second point: I was Mekabel from my Rebbe, who got from his Rebbe, that Parnasah depends on what you do. Some one in Kollel can not expect Al Pi Teva to make six figures. When Hashem decides on Rosh Hashana how much someone will make, it is where they will land in the range of what they do. Whether the doctor will make 250K or 500K (if that is normal), or will be fired and make zero, or the secretary 15K or 20K. The secretary will not make 250K Al Pi Teva, but requires “extra help” which Hashem may brovide, but is not being given due to the normal course of hishtadlus. I know there are other shittos out there, but IMHO they make no sense to me based on the requirement of Hishtadlus that exists.
As such, if one plans on paying tuition, you can’t just shrug it off saying “no one else pays”, and you have to be “Roeh es Hanolad”, that tuition will come, and you have to decide at an early age what you will do about it.
Derech HaMelech:
If only everyone could be supported in Kollel! B’zman Moshiach, that is exactly what will happen. Everyone will learn in Kollel all day, and be supported.
B’Avonosaynu HaRabbim, that time is not yet here. Now, we have to prioritize. Do I give to Oorah or BMG? My local yeshiva or Tomche Shabbos? It is a very good question, no?
Boruch Hashem, Hashem provided us with Chazal, and Poskim who tell us where we should direct our money first, and where second. We, as frum Yidden, follow Shulchan Aruch. The top general priority (as per SA YD 249:16) is tuition and supporting talmud torahs (I wouldn’t have known this without my Rov pointing it out to me after I asked). That is not to say a small check can’t be given to other things (such as Oorah), but if you follow Halacha, you have to prioritize correctly.
For this reason, the bulk of my Tzedaka goes to local Yeshivos. Paying for Kollel is a distant fourth, if that (although I do sometimes write a check out), as it should be, based on the SA and my Rov. (second is Bedek HaBayis for the shul, third is Tomche Shabbos/food for hungry Aniyim).
I have no problem with those who support Kollels, as long as they follow Shulchan Aruch when doing so.
frumnotyeshivish -“Reb Aharon opened BMG for the elite few, etc…”
I think this is the first time I actually agree with your post. 🙂
But remember what I was talking about was the concept of Kollel – that R. Aharon was Mechadesh in America, not the way it actually is run here in Lakewood.
moi aussi -“Yeshivos and seminaries brainwashed their youth that “staying in learning” is the ultimate sacrifice for Torah. At whose expense?”
Not yours. I’m sure you don’t support Kollel!
“Boys were instructed to look for rich fathers in law. Women were instructed to take upon themselves the yoke of parnassa.”
“The results speak for themselves:
-Fathers are collapsing and dying of heart attacks from the financial strain of supporting Kollel children.”
Do you have any proof for Your statistics? Stop making things up just to put down Kollel. We in the medical field know that Heart disease is caused by a few risk factors.
“-Women have become martyrs working like horses at full-time jobs, raising kids and running homes.”
They actually agree to do this. It wasn’t a shotgun wedding. I guess some want a big Chelek in Olam Haba. Maybe you can’t understand this.
“-Bnei Brak has the highest percentage of children living below the poverty line.”
Oh and it’s only because of Kollel. Again how about some proof?
“-The Kollelniks are frustrated and unfulfilled for having been robbed of their role as provider of the family. Consequently their Torah learning is not so serious (to put it mildly).”
Most I know are not like this. Hey – but say anything you want as long as Kollel guys look bad.
“It’s a failed system, and people are waking up to its realities.”
That’s your opinion. But a good portion of the Frum world doesn’t think it’s a failed system. And I don’t learn in Kollel and almost never did!
I once saw that the Zohar Hakadosh says about the refusal to support Torah …”
chas v’chalilah that we refuse to support TORAH. It is the refusal to be the sole support of people who choose not to earn a living for their families,which is their halachic obligation according to the Torah, the kesuba, and derech eretz.
DH: So you’re saying that we should support a kollel lifestyle for people who aren’t learning so that they can not learn in kollel instead of at work?
Don’t buy it. Let them not learn at work and support the kollel. Better yet, if the kollelim are smaller, more money can be given to each member and still have more left over for tzedaka
g_a_w: As I mentioned at least twice, my stance was posed against those who b’shita do not support kollelim. that doesn’t seem to be the case by your explanation.
IS: So you’re saying, the most important thing is that a person be productive, if not in learning than at work. And you are right, according to the Maharsha’s interpretation of the gemarah in Kesubos mentioned above, “???? ?????” is someone who can learn but instead loafs around all day.
What I am saying is that the most important thing is that a person should be learning, if not at kollel then at work and if not even at work then at least at kollel.
The point was that at least in kollel they are learning a little bit, which is more than they might otherwise have been learning. And every little bit of Torah is important for the person and the klal.
The truth is, that even regardless of all that, why should we lose the people who are serious about learning and do put their hours in? Isn’t that biting my nose to spite my face?
Gavra, the Gemara at the end of Kiddushin sys that there is no profession without poverty or wealth so someone should not choose a lucrative profession but a clean and easy profession. Some interpret this to mean a profession with a minimum of moral dilemmas whereas others interpret to mean a profession that does not require a person to work, as the saying goes in Hebrew “metzet hachama ad tzet haneshama” (thus many frum Jews work in civil service postitons). However, you are right in saying that one has to normal hishtadlut. If he does not succeed he should at least learn to see where it takes him.
As for the time of Mashiach, Rambam says that at the end of Hilchot Melachim. However, IMHO it means that we will be a nation of think-tanks that will supply legal opinions to the Bnei Noach for money (thus they will support us without feeling that they are giving charity0.
As I mentioned at least twice, my stance was posed against those who b’shita do not support kollelim. that doesn’t seem to be the case by your explanation.
Oh. In that case we agree.
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