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As I undertsand (correct if necessary), Chazal added the Stam Yaynum (touching) prohibition to Yayin Nesech to eliminate partying with nochrim, so to avoid us becoming close or to friendly with them.
If so, wouldn’t partying with them even with Yayin Mevushel – or even stam going to a party (i.e. a corporate party) with them without alcohol altogether – still be in violation of the spirit of Chazal’s prohibition to keep us separate from them, not to get too close or friendly?
um . . . ein gozrin gezeira al gezeira? Perhaps, depending on the circumstances, partying with non-Jews may be a bad idea, but thats a highly individualized and fact-specific decision, and in any case “violation” (even of the spirit of the gezeira) would be the wrong word to use.
Kind of like Achashveirush’s party. We were not supposed to go there even though the food prepared for us was 100% Kosher. Kind of the same reason, correct?
Anything that keeps us distant from them is a positive practice and falls in line with this Chazal.
We don’t create our own Issurim. Avoid what you feel is necessary for you to avoid, but Ein Anu Gozrin G’zeiros.
The idea of not becoming friendly with goyim is the reason for Chazal’s gezeira? Would that be a principle (set by Chazal) in of itself?
The spirit of the law is only uncooked wine. Get it? The “spirit” of the law… Oh, come on!
hershi: indeed, the rambam holds exactly as you state. you cannot party with goyim or go to their clubs/bars even if youre drinking kosher.
sam2: he is not making it up, it is haluchu mefurush.
hilchoys machlos asuroys, yud zayin, tess-yud
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Do any of us really think that we’re smarter than Chazal to extrapolate from their G’zeira farther than what they made? I don’t.
besalel: Does anyone disagree with Rambam on this?
sam2: see, also Yoreh De’ah 114:1. Sepharadi Jews who do not hold by the leniency of the Rama there indeed hold like the Rambam as hershi states prohibiting all drinking at bars/clubs and non-jewish parties. See, also, the Beis Yosef on Yoreh De’ah 112 which proves the Rambam from the gemuruh in avoyda zuruh daf lamed umud alef.
you can do what you please but i believe hershi’s logic is spot on and that it is indeed ussur to drink at bars/clubs/goyesh parties.
correction, hershi is not entirely correct: there is no prohibition to go to the parties as hershi suggests but you cannot drink alcohol (presumably because that is taking closeness/socializing to a new level).
also, hershi is incorrect that ONLY touching is assur because of the issue of socializing – in truth, all yayin “nesech” is assur only for socializing reasons and the term “yayin nesech” is a misnomer.
besalel – As you clearly know, Ashkenazim are lenient, based on the Rema.
If the Rambam says it then the Rambam says it. Though I’m not sure that going to a bar and not socializing with the non-Jews there counts, I can clearly see why one would think that it does.
That Achashveros’ party was an aveira is proof to this issur. The Shulchan Aruch (YD 152:1) paskens its assur to party with them, based on the Gemora’s in Megila and Avoda Zora.
The Taz writes that the prohibition is m’doraysa and even applies if the Gentile making the party is non-religious. The Mishna Halachos 7:118, based on the Taz, specifically says the prohibition includes attending an office party.
Naysberg – I believe that halacha in 152 is based on other considerations, i.e. it is an avoda zara issue. Ayin sham.
Contrary to popular belief, pouring non Mevushol wine by a Nochri renders it non-kosher. …… Just touching the [already open] bottle, without pouring it, does nothing to render it unfit.
As for attending Goyish parties, having been at some xmas parties at my work place, irrespective of whether allowed to be there or not, simply the Tumoh of such an atmosphere, is enough to make my Neshomo get out of there as fast as possible; i.e Quickly eat the Kosher meal they supply me, and depart right away.
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