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(UPDATE IN EXTENDED ARTICLE) 6/04/08 3:00PM EST: The modern electronic ovens presently being sold are no longer simply ovens that cook, but rather sophisticated, computer driven electronic marvels. While in the past, the Halochos pertaining to using ovens on Shabbos and Yom Tov were pretty straightforward, nowadays simply opening and closing the ovens can entail violations of Shabbos and Yom Tov.
The “Sabbath Mode” on many of the ovens sold today actually do resolve many of these issues, and is very useful.
However, utilizing the “Sabbath Mode” to raise or lower the temperature on Yom Tov is a matter which has been presented to the Gedolei HaPoskim and they have all unequivocally rendered their decision that it is absolutely forbidden to utilize that feature on Yom Tov.
Having seen the written explanation for the basis of the leniency, HoRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlit”a, HoRav Shmuel Wosner Shlit”a, HoRav Nisim Karelitz Shlit”a and HoRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlit”a all signed that it is strictly forbidden to rely on this leniency on Yom Tov.
In addition, when a written lenient opinion (”Daas Yochid”) was presented to local Rabbonim, they were also unanimous in their decision that it is forbidden to utilize that feature on Yom Tov.
Among the Rabbonim who signed were HoRav Yechezkel Roth Shlit”a, HoRav Shlomo Miller Shlit”a Rosh Kollel Avreichim of Toronto, HoRav Yechiel Tauber Shlit”a, Rosh Kollel Mechon Hoyroa in Monsey, HoRav Yaakov Horowitz Shlit”a, Rav Of Telze Minyan in Boro Park, Horav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, Rosh Yeshiva of South Fallsburg, HoRav Gershon Bess, Rav Kehilas Yaakov in Los Angeles.
HoRav Feivel Cohen Shlit”a corresponded with HoRav Elyashiv shlit”a and also expressed his opinion that one cannot rely on the leniency.
HoRav Yisroel Belsky Shlit”a responded publicly that it is forbidden to adjust the temperature on these ovens. Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, Av Bais Din of the Agudah in Chicago also publicly forbade the adjustment of the temperature on Yom tov.
Click HERE to view the Kol Koreh signed by the Poskim, and a letter written by Rav Moshe Shternbach Shlita forbidding its use as well.
The following is a translation of the Kol Koreh sent to YWN by a prominent Rov and Posek:
The development of “Sabbath Mode” operation of ovens seeks to permit the raising and lowering of oven temperatures on Yom Tov. The change in temperature settings is accomplished by pressing keys on a keypad that is connected to the microcontroller built into the oven. Pressing the keys while in “Sabbath Mode” does not result in an immediate change in oven temperature nor does it have any other observable effect. Allowing this activity is based on the presumption that pressing the keys is merely a “Grama” and is therefore permitted on Yom Tov.
In our opinion, pressing the keys on Yom Tov is strictly forbidden since pressing a key immediately closes an electrical circuit and instructs the microcontroller to carry out an action. Pressing the key is forbidden just as all manipulation of electricity is forbidden on Shabbos and Yom Tov either because of “Makeh B’patish” or because of “Mesaken” as described in Igros Moshe (vol.3 §42 and vol.4 §84) whereby there can be a Torah violation immediately upon pressing the key even if no “fire’”is created. This operation is not considered “Grama”. [Furthermore, according to a number of authorities, “Grama” does not apply to situations where the eventual outcome is intentional.]
In our opinion, use of “Sabbath Mode” to change the temperature of an oven on Yom Tov represents an assault on the sanctity of Shabbos and Yom Tov and will lead to deterioration in their observance. We hereby declare that one may not rely on “Sabbath Mode” operation to adjust oven temperatures on Yom Tov despite the presence of a Hechsher on these ovens.
To all of the above we affix our signatures:
(HoRav) Yosef Shalom Elyashiv
I have seen the lengthy words of the Rov that permitted the above and they are Halachically incorrect and it is clearly forbidden. - (HoRav) Nisim Karelitz
There is no Heter for the above, nor will Grama accomplish here.
I affix my signature, awaiting the redemption. - (HoRav) Shmuel Wozner
Surely, surely one is obligated to protest this leniency with all our might. Such leniencies are a great degradation in the foundation of Shmiras Shabbos and those that are careful with the honor of Shabbos will bring an eternal Brocho upon themselves. - (HoRav) Yechezkel Roth, Head of Karlsbad Bais Din
Aside from the actual prohibition, there lies herein a breach in the wall of Shmiras Shabbos and Yom Tov through which the Jewish nation is sanctified thoughout the generations. - (HoRav) Yaakov Horowitz, Rav ,Telz Minyan
(HoRav) Elya Ber Wachtfogel
(HoRav) Shlomo Miller, Rosh Kollel, Kollel Avreichim Toronto
(HoRav) Yechiel Tauber, Rosh Kollel Mechon L’Hoyroa, Monsey, NY
(HoRav) Gershon Bess, Rav Kehilas Yaakov, Los Angeles
UPDATE 6/05/08 5:00PM EST:
The Star-K has just released the following statement:
Rav Heinemann, shlita, stands by his Psak that it is permissible to raise and lower temperatures on Yom Tov on ovens equipped with that particular Sabbath Mode feature. Please see Star-K website, or call our office for details about your particular model. Star-K will, in the next few days, post an audio presentation from Rav Heinemann explaining his views.
For those who wish to refrain from placing their ovens in Sabbath Mode and still use their oven on Yom Tov, please be aware of the possible serious “Michshol” on many models. Opening the oven door will immediately shut off the heating elements, an act clearly forbidden on Yom Tov. Thus, even if you don’t raise or lower the temperature, it is still important to keep the oven in Sabbath Mode.
What is this leniency that they are talking about?
Is this a chumra or was it always asur?
Comment by must_hock — June 4, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
What was the hava amina that you can change electronics on Shabbos? I use mine for light, and to remove the p’sik reisha on opening the door only.
Comment by midwesterner — June 4, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
The title of the article is misleading. They didn’t assur Shabbos Mode for all cases, only to adjust the temperature on Yom Tov. You can still use it for Shabbos with the Shabbos mode.
Comment by Feif Un — June 4, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
Another of the many reasons demonstrating why Klal Yisroel needs its Gedolim.
(Now how long will it be for the usual baalei batim to come yelling that the extremist rabble-rousers are hoodwinking and fooling all the Rabbonim into thinking the facts are what they are not, and really what do the Rabbonim know about technology and appliances anyway… we should ask the “real” experts, etc.
Oh wait… they only attack the psak Rabbonim when they don’t like the psak.)
Comment by Joseph — June 4, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
Your headline is very misleading.
This Psak does not in any way “Asur Shabbos mode on ovens.” This Psak only Asurs one from pressing the buttons on the oven while in Shabbos mode to “invisibly” raise or lower the preset temperature.
The Shabbos mode is still perfectly usable and completely Mutar to allow one to open and close the oven door.
Comment by eliezer — June 4, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
Look here for Rav Heinemann Shlita’s Teshuva last year permitting it: http://www.star-k.org/pdf/oventeshuva.pdf It would be important to hear his response to this Kol Korei, and of course everyone should consult their Rav
Comment by shua — June 4, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
I am medayek from the text that if u have a shabbos oven with a manual knob instead of electronics then it should be fine. Anyone heard otherwise
Comment by ecomajor — June 4, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
I don’t mean this to be insulting, but this derech in psak is going to turn us into amish soon. We wont be able to live with modern technology during the week because we wont be able to avoid it on shabbos.
One thing I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer to is why opening a faucet or closing a door is not makek b’patish if closing a circuit is. The common ansewr is that they are meant to be open and closed, but so is a circuit. If anyone wants to provide an answer that I might find more convincing, please, its been bugging me for a long time.
It’s very interesting to read Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach’s views on electricity, in how there’s nothing inherently assur about it, just how one would use it (incandescent light bulbs, hashmaot kol….)
Comment by Former YU Guy — June 4, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
Does anyone know if this Psak applies to ovens with knobs?
Comment by Chicago_Yid — June 4, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Agree totally with # 2, 3 and 5. The main use of Shabbos mode is to Open the oven door on Shabbos/Yom Tov without automatically causing the thermostat to turn on the oven. Adjusting electronic controls on Yom Tov is a completely different matter. The title of the article is very misleading.
Comment by TheReader — June 4, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
Actually, it’s wonderful to see a p’sak based upon modern technology that seems carefully researched. I think the misconception among those who have the Shabbos Mode is that the button press did NOT “immediately close an electrical circuit,” rather, it was delayed for a predetermined amount of time before the circuit would check the current “status” to see if a temperature adjustment should be made. This supposed-grama was created by design to not be a melacha on Yom Tov, so it’s unfortunate that the manufacturers, while well-intentioned, did not do what’s necessary to create a real grama.
Someone please explain to me the last paragraph - “In our opinion, use of “Sabbath Mode” to change the temperature of an oven on Yom Tov represents an assault on the sanctity of Shabbos and Yom Tov and will lead to deterioration in their observance.”
Questions:
1) The Sabbath Mode was determined here to not a sufficient grama to be used on Yom Tov. It was NEVER intended to change the oven temperature on Shabbos, so how is this statement applicable to Shabbos?
2) In addition, is there any question that it IS permissible to raise/lower a gas stove or non-electrical oven on Yom Tov? Is that too an “assault on the sanctity of..Yom Tov?” Why not?
Comment by justajew — June 4, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
Shua in #6 has it right. Rav Heinemann is one of our Gedolei Poskim. Read his Tshuva. Nowhere in any of the Kol Koreh does it say that the Gedolim in Eretz Yisrael read the Tshuva and found fault with the conclusions. Is this just another example of presenting Gedolim with one side of the story and asking them to sign on? I hope not.
Let the Bnai Torah read, analyze, and decide. Rav Heinemann would be the last person to encourage raising or lowering oven temperature on Yom Tov if they or their own Posek understood how the Sabbath Mode works and still felt that it was Assur.
Comment by An Alter Yid — June 4, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Thank you for modifying the title.
Comment by TheReader — June 4, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
Shua, thanx for the link. So can I leave my (hypothetical) TV screen off, and manipulate the VCR this Shabbos, so I can record the NBA Finals?
The first part of the teshuva addresses the delayed reaction, and why it is not a problem of gram kibui. That is well accepted by many poskim, and not disputed by this Kol Koreh.
The second part of the Teshuva addresses the other issue, the electric impulses made by touching the buttons. He says that since there is no screen that it can be seen on, there is no roshem of this that is nireh l’einayim. That is a far greater chidush, and is the one that is directly disputed by the above gedolim.
IMHO, and I’m just a YWN, reader, and not qualified to argue on any of the rabbonim on either side, his rayos from the Chazon Ish and R’ Shlomo Zalman are a bit weak. He seems to compare the opening of the door of a refrigerator, with the resultant thermostat adjustment, to our case. I would think that it is more comparable to the first shayla of doing an action in the environment, and having it affect the thermostat, rather than the second shayla, of causing direct, although invisible, actions in the thermostat itself. (One disclaimer: I read the teshuva very fast. I will be me’ayen later when I have more time. I hope, in my haste, that I haven’t misstated what Rav Heineman wrote there.)
Comment by midwesterner — June 4, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
and really what do the Rabbonim know about technology and appliances anyway… we should ask the “real” experts, etc
Joseph,
Considering that rabbanim have issued rulings based on mistaken facts in the past, and considering the fact that this ruling is based on the assumption that pressing a key immediately closes a circuit, it is not out of bounds to ask if the actual premise of the issur is true or not.
Are you really opposed to asking an engineer and finding out one way or the other?
The Wolf
Comment by WolfishMusings — June 4, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
#12: First let me just let everyone know that you work directly for Rabbi Hineman at the Star-K.
Let us also tell the world (what perhaps you may not know).
Rabbi Hineman knows very well that each Posek was given his Teshuva to read.
CAN’T YOU READ???!!!!
Rav Nissim Kareliz clearly wrote “I have seen the lengthy words of the Rov that permitted the above and they are Halachically incorrect and it is clearly forbidden. - (HoRav) Nisim Karelitz”
They were ALL given his Teshuva!
Prior to the Kol Koreh being publicized, Rabbi Hineman was called repeatedly by a leading Rosh Yeshiva to beg him to reconsider his Teshuva, and Rabbi Hineman REFUSED to come to the phone for WEEKS.
Finally, this leading R”Y told Rabbi Hineman’s Rebbitzen that it’s a matter of Rabbi Hineman’s Kavod. And then….ONLY then….did he come to the phone.
Please.
Let the truth be heard.
Enough.
And to the “wolf”: The “real” engineers are poskim such as Rav Moshe, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Aurbach etc etc etc.
They did not need to consult with an engineer.
Did the Chazon Ish also need to consult with one?
Comment by Nuch ah Deya — June 4, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
Former YU Guy,
Actually, in the link in Comment #6 from Shua, Rabbi Heinemann addresses that exact point. He quotes what the Chazon Ish answered to explain in his opinion what the difference is to your excellent question.
BTW, also in that teshuva from Rabbi Heinemann, he quotes Rav Moshe ZTL’s opinion about bugs that cannot be clearly seen.
Comment by dave375 — June 4, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
Wolf, read the teshuva linked by Shua in #6. Rav Heineman acknowledges the closing of the circuit. He says it is muttar anyway, cuz it can’t be seen by the naked eye.
Rabbonim talk to engineers ALL THE TIME about new technology, and its implications for halacha.
Comment by midwesterner — June 4, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
Rabbosai,
THE PROBLEM IS R’ HEINEMANN”S PSAK!
It was printed in the YESHURUN Torah Journal.
ALL OF THESE RABBONIM ARE TALKING ABOUT IS THIS PSAK.!
The Bottom line is HE IS A DAAS YACHID!
And until this is all worked out,
WHO WANTS TO PLAY WITH FIRE??? We’re talking about D’ OISRAISA here ! I know I can live without it until its all done!
Comment by shtusim — June 4, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
And to the “wolf”: The “real” engineers are poskim such as Rav Moshe, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Aurbach etc etc etc.
For heaven’s sake… they’re halachic experts, not engineers, not doctors and not stock market experts.
Midwesterner,
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at it. And thank you for your kind and respectful response (as opposed to others) to my question.
The Wolf
Comment by WolfishMusings — June 4, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
Regarding a non-electric gas stove, which lights from a pilot light: R’ Schachter at YU paskens that you can adjust it on Yom Tov just as you’d adjust a stove burner - only when you need it. Being that it’s not electric, it doesn’t use a thermostat to control it, it just adjusts the size of the fire in the oven.
Comment by Feif Un — June 4, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
The Chazon Ish instructed a well-known brain surgeon on how to do a surgery.
He was an astronomer too.
Reb Moshe feinstein was a genius in electricity, and you….are nothing more than an apikores.
period.
Comment by shmendrik — June 4, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Thanks YWN for this important info!
Comment by Joe Schmo — June 4, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
what makes hima daas yochid?
Comment by mah nishma — June 4, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
# 16
While almost everything you wrote is correct, regarding the Psak, the Daas Yachid, etc…
but the poskim throughout the doros DID ask the experts before they paskened. Else, they have thoroughly studied the facts by themselves, from the BOOKS WRITTEN BY THOSE ESPERTS.
The Rambam gaines his medical knowledge from Galen and Avicenna, as he says himself, and quotes them verbatim, with all their mistakes, for that was the most advanced medical knowledge of the day.
The Tzemach Dovid studied astronomy under Tycho Brahe, whom he quotes all the time.
Reb Moshe inquired of expert physicians, including Dr. Koop, regarding treatment options and their outcomes.
The Chazon Ish, Rav Moshe, and Rav Shlomo Zalman all STUDIED electricity before their psakim, and have arrived at different conclusions, actually.
But let’s really study history. have you ever learned the sugyas in Shas where the chachmei haMishna, including Rabeinu Hakodosh, asked the gentile scientist’s opinions on all non-halachik matters, and CONCEDED their truth, when presented with evidence???
That’s aside from Rav Saadia Gaon who corresponded with the Archbishop of Antioch regarding the correct meaning of p’sukei Tehillim…..
Basically, the idea is that a Posek will not issue a psak until fully acquainted with the facts, true. But they GATHER those facts either from the expert’s mouths, or the experts’ books, NOT from pilpul.
Comment by sammygol — June 4, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
I just spoke to my Rov, who says that there is no safek that this is 100% asur
Comment by jO jO — June 4, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
#21 - an oven, any oven, that has a temperature setting knob must use a thermostat to control when the flame in the oven should go on and when not. How else would it control the temeprature to stay at a set level?
Comment by TheReader — June 4, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
Why is Rav Dovid Feinstein not on this?
Comment by mofo — June 4, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
WolfishMusings - When this many Rabbonim of the caliber listed issue a ruling, I have full confidence that they have taken all necessary steps to accurately obtain all necessary information to issue their ruling.
I find it quite amusing when some baalei batim, when they do not like a psak, will insinuate all sorts of questions on the Rabbonim. “The Rabbonim made a mistake”… “they didn’t have the facts”… “they are not experts”… “they were fooled”… “they were hoodwinked by the extremists”…
… I really get a laugh when these individuals insinuate these type of questions on a psak issued by multiple Gedolei Yisroel.
Comment by Joseph — June 4, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
funny thing,i saw this in the yated this week, but not the hamodia.
any clues?
by the big event/lipa thingi it was the other way around.
Comment by Rabbi Yipshutz — June 4, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
#27: Not all ovens have an electronic thermostat. Some ovens don’t plug into an outlet at all. The oven knob just adjusts the size of the fire. A smaller fire means a lower temperature. Make sense?
Comment by Feif Un — June 4, 2008 @ 4:50 pm
Joseph,
That’s fine… you may feel confident that they have done the research necessary to validate the rulings. Others, however, may have questions. As such, asking whether or not the underlying assumption is true or not is not wrong.
No one is saying that they were “fooled.” No one is saying that they “hoodwinked.” Nonetheless, it is not irresponsible to ask if the facts are in accordance with the presumptions of the ruling.
The wolf
Comment by WolfishMusings — June 4, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Sammygol,
Thank you for the lengthy (and rational) posting regarding rabbanim and their expertise.
The Wolf
Comment by WolfishMusings — June 4, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
i read rav heinemans teshuva, and its very not poshut what he wrote.
he totally does not understand what the chazon ish and rav shloma zalman are talking about
milchemta shel torah?!
Comment by andrew bb — June 4, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
milchemta shel torah?
NOT!
He is arguing against the poskey hador literally.
actually, there is not one rov who agrees with him.
in other words he is a DAAS YOCHID
Comment by schmendrik — June 4, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
#34: Who are you to say that R’ Heineman doesn’t understand what they wrote about? Believe me, R’ Heineman understands it a lot better than you ever will!
Comment by Feif Un — June 4, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
Not just is the title of this article confusing, but the idea of a “Shabbos switch” is a misnomer altogther, since we are really talking about using the oven on YoM Tovim, not on Shabbos Kodesh itself.
Someday some nice heimeshe manufacturer should start making “retro ranges” that have a regular gas pilot (not gas ignited), and uses knobs, not computer keypads.
Comment by AWoman_outside_bklyn — June 4, 2008 @ 5:01 pm
# 32 AND 33
Confidence in the rabbonim’s having done research is paramount to accepting their p’sak. Yes, I have to trust that a Godol who issues a public ruling has studied the facts, and well. What I a doing isn’t just assuming, but trusting his common sense and his responsibility. And doing the homework on all frots is what makes him a Godol.
As for psakim issued based on erroneous facts, well, some experts aren’t perfect, they may have presented some facts improperly, but consider this:
Science, whether Physics, Medicine, or Astronomy has advanced inestimably since the 19th century. Possibly, p’sakim issued then based on the facts were incorrect, but when a Posek does all that he can, and learns all that is known at the time of the psak, he has fulfilled his duty, and his psak will have Sayata Dishmaya. I don’t know why, but a story with the Divrei Chaim just came to mind. he adviced a patient with advanced Tuberculosis to smoke, since “smoked meat last longer”. before you laugh, know that the Yid was killed by the Nazis some 60 years later, having been cured.
In this way is Psak Halacha different from all other scientific endeavors, as it can change the metzius. In the absense of Jent INC, I will have to refer you to Kesuvos, regarding ketana and the leap year.
So, when the knowledge advances and you feel that a psak issued prior to this information is no longer valid, it is your duty to bring it to a responsible posek to evaluate teh evidence. Sitting back and claiming that “see, they don’t know what they are talking about” is wrong, irresponsible, and arrogant, because in 10 years hence they wiil know even more. Take a look in Pachad Yitzchok ( 17th century) regarding spontaneous generation theories after the invention of the microscope. there were rabbis, big ones too, that wanted to say that the goyim who invented the microscopes are liars, and there is no such a thing as bacteria. Know any rabbi today who tells people that antibiotics are worthless since bacteria are non-existant?
It may be worth your while to spend some time in close proximity to a major posek, and be amazed at jsut how much they really know. You will not be able to fathom when they found the time to gain such knowledge in so many branches of science, besides their learning.
Comment by sammygol — June 4, 2008 @ 5:07 pm
What does shabbos mode help do if not to adjust the tempature. Opening the door I don’t think gets affceted by shabbos mode. If the tempature drops the stove will go on even in shabbos mode, which is not a propblem just like opening fridg door.
Comment by rebmoish — June 4, 2008 @ 5:08 pm
fine … what is the problem with HaRav Heinemen being a Daas Yachid? He is perfectly entitled to come to his own desision, and his “congregants” have every right to rely on his P’sak. Period.
Comment by TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY — June 4, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
Actually, in the link in Comment #6 from Shua, Rabbi Heinemann addresses that exact point. He quotes what the Chazon Ish answered to explain in his opinion what the difference is to your excellent question.
I still don’t see how it differs from a faucet. We open and close a faucet to create a path for water to flow. unsure why opening and closing a switch is any different. mah nishtana electrons mei h2o?
Comment by Former YU Guy — June 4, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
That it’s assur to use this oven is not the chiddush!
What took so many years for this psak to come out??
Why did the Rabbonim wait until hundreds of Yidden bought and used this oven?
Why? Why?
Comment by nochamol — June 4, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Rav Heinneman is a is a posek in his own right and does not need to bow to halachik opinions of Poskim in Eretz Yisroel or in other kehillos in America. I think issuing Piskei Halacha via Kol Koreh is a stong arm tactic that has no place in legitimate Halachic debate. It is unfortunate that our public discourse has degenerated to this level and I protest the insult to the kavod Hatorah of Horav Heinemann shlita.
Comment by I.M. — June 4, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
Sabbath mode is that the oven should stay on for more than 12 hours thats it
Comment by jerkoq — June 4, 2008 @ 6:51 pm
It seems quite clear that this is refering to the mistaken notion people have about Shabbos modes. Not all ovens are the controls or Shabbos modes the same. On the GE gas oven my mother has, the temperature knob is marked so she can adjust the temperature on Yom Tov (not Shabbos!).
Star-K ahs some guidelines: http://www.star-k.org/cons-appl-ge-ovenprods.htm
Comment by IrexTalmud — June 4, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
I.M.,
Who are you to talk like that about the Gedolei Hador!?!
I heard the shiur of the heter from Rav Heinemens own mouth and there were many “mehaycha teisees!” When asked if Rav Elyashiv shlita argues with him, Rabbi Heineman responded “if he does he would have told me!”
If all these Gedolim feel this Kol Koreh is necessary, then just listen!!
If a rav has his own kulos for his own Kehilla, it is one thing.
But to nationalise your kulos and throw them on the innocent public is wrong. That might be why the Gedolim felt a public Kol Koreh was in order!
No Kol Koreh went out about Rabbi Henemans bugs, no Kol Koreh went out about Rabbi Heinemans “Eruvs”.
Obviously the Gedolim felt that this was required.
Comment by anonymouschochom — June 4, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
Mr YU Alumnus: It is the difference between aish and mayim
Comment by midwesterner — June 4, 2008 @ 7:31 pm
There does seem to be a lack of כבוד to Rav Heinneman and that is very disturbing.
Comment by Shnuchel — June 4, 2008 @ 7:40 pm
The Psak of Rav Heinemann SHLIT”A, as posted by Commenter No. 6, is of questionable validity:
* No signature, not even his name;
* Not on his stationery.
If an official copy exists, please let us see it. Otherwise, we will assume that he probably (a) did not issue it, or (b) expected other Poskim to disagree.
Respectfully,
Comment by Avraham — June 4, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
#19. Leaving aside all other issues, de’oraisa? What issur de’oraisa is involved here? Even if R Heineman is 100% wrong and these poskim are 100% right, the worst we’re talking about is the issur d’rabonon of nolad, not a d’oraisa.
Comment by Milhouse — June 4, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
The fact alone that the Kol Koreh alleges that the “Shabbos Mode” will lead to desecration of Shabbos and Yom Tov by ” The development of “Sabbath Mode” operation of ovens seeks to permit the raising and lowering of oven temperatures on Yom Tov. ” indicates that, once again, they may not have been given all the facts.
1> Despite the name given by the manafacturers,
this feature has nothing to do with Shabbos.
2> As stated above, the old stoves with pilot
lights could be left on because the pilot
light never went out.
3> They disappeared because the fact that the
pilot was on 24 hours a day was a fire hazared.
The electronic ignition stoves that replaced
them were still not a problem because they
could be turned on and left on all Yom Tov.
4> Eventually, these stoves were deemed a fire
hazard and the new stoves were designed
to cut off the oven after 12 hours. The
original purpose of the ” Shabbos Mode” was
created to bypass the 12 hour cutoff and
ENHANCE the Yom Tov by being able to have
hot food on the second and third day of Yom
Tov.
And, Daas Yochod never seems to be a problem when it is lechumrah
Comment by lesschumras — June 4, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
THERE SEEMS TO BE ALOT OF MISCONCEPTION ABOUT WHAT THIS PSAK IS ALL ABOUT. ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN OVENS OR THE ISRAELI OVENS. I AM SURE THERE ARE ALOT OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO. ALSO, MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE SHABBOS MODE IS JUST THAT IT DOES NOT START BEEPING AND TURN OFF AFTER 12 HOURS. ALSO, I HOPE THAT THE RABBONIM THAT ARE PUTTING OUT THIS ISSUR HAVE A VERY INTENSE TECHNICAL UNDERSTANDING OF MODERN DAY ELECTRONICS.
Comment by glatekup — June 4, 2008 @ 8:41 pm
One thing that was not noted in the response of R Shternbuch is his insistence that the activities of Machon Tzomet (which did not, to my knowledge, invent this oven) are a path to Reform. Certainly there may be legitimate disagreements among Rabbis about גרם and the like, but why is there a need for such continuous vilification? The similar suggestion that the Sabbath oven involved an אסור דאור is just as bombastic. Obviously we are talking about something very from from an אסור תורה except according to isolated שטות in the אחרונים. Would it not have been less vituperative to say that this is something we should desist from מתורת חומרא– people keep many chumrot and that would have accomplished the same goal without delegitimizing the other side. I can see the goal of the Rabbis involves important ideas of שבות and may be very necessary to preserve some people’s idea of שבת but is it still טוב להעלות האסור 200 years after חת”ס– not to mention tying such exaggeration to vilification?
Comment by chakira — June 4, 2008 @ 8:43 pm
Let me tell you about the shabbos mode.there are a few parts to it.1 it overrides the 12 hour shut off so it wont go off on yom tov.2 you can have it set to go off on fri night without beeping the whole shabbos. And 3,what this whole thing is all about…as somone who is involved in this on a day to day basis,firstly,r heinamann is a very choshuv person.and second we always advise people that they have to ask you rav scince most disagree. (As half of you probably have asked us about this)
Comment by theman — June 4, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
Midwestener: since when does Aish have anything to do with Makeh B’Patish?
I’m trying to understand how the CI answer to RSZA question, which I don’t. The CI seems to distinguish an electrical switch from other things, but I don’t quite grasp the distinction.
Comment by Former YU Guy — June 4, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
The idea is that we paskin that it is not “grama” when it is engineered l’chatchila to do the activity.
Just like the “Shabbos Scooter” that was based on “grama” … the rabbonim said, “No way! If it is engineered to do this, the delay or indirectness is not grama it is the same as if you did it by hand yourself.”
In other words, you can’t engineer grama into something.
The rov who is claimed to have given a heter on the scooter was niftar before this heter was advertized, and there is nothing in writing justifying it. The main poskai hador, HaRav Wosner, Shlita, and HaRav Elishav, Shlita both said no way. No engineering grama.
Comment by DM — June 4, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
#48, I agree. Especially comment #16, I believe is serious Lashon Hara.
#49, It was published in Yeshurun journal, its a regular .pdf file taken from there.
#50, the Issur of using something which is nolad is d’rabanan. The Issur of being “moleed” something, i.e. making the nolad, that is D’oraisa.
Comment by midwesterner — June 4, 2008 @ 11:50 pm
YU GUY Starting and stopping waterflow dosnt make a spark which is “aish” wake up!Also makeh bpatish finishes completes the object or system,recycling the electricty.Opening a faucet empties the system.Tremedous difference.
Comment by rabbi108300 — June 5, 2008 @ 12:14 am
#16, Reb Moshe always says he consulted with the experts before issuing a ruling, as did Reb Shlomo Zalman, siman 9. Before they can pasken on anything, they need to be mevarer the metzius. In Sanhedrin, it says that Rav spent 18 months on a farm to study the differences between mum over and mum kavua.
At any rate, we once rented a house where they had such a Yontof mode stove, and I asked my Rav about the same issue, that although the lights don’t work, but nevertheless, pushing the button does an immediate closure of the circuit. True the ramifications are delayed (output of microcontroller), but what about the input, which is immediate. My Rov told me that Rav Heinemann holds that since it cannot be detected (has no roshem) it is ok, and that he researched it.
However, being that these gedolim hold that one does have to be concerned even if it has no roshem, I will have to ask him again. However, I am sure Rav Heinemann can continue to rely on his psak, as any moreh horaah is allowed to pasken, and does not need to be mevatel daas to someone who is considered bigger. There is a famous story of the Vilna Gaon on this point.
One thing to note, is that the Shmiras Shabbos says one can raise and lower the volume of a hearing aid on shabbos, as long as it was on to begin with.
Also, there are numerous handicapped frum people who rely on the Tzomet grama devices such as the Shabbos wheelchairs. Are these going to be assured as well, or is there a heter for a choleh?
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — June 5, 2008 @ 12:17 am
BTW, the No-Roshem idea may not be as farfetched as it sounds. COnsider this, how are you allowed to move your hand on Shabbos? Your nervous system works by, guess what? Electricity. Every time you make any movement (or even think), you are opening and closing zillions of tiny electrical circuits in the nerve fibers.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — June 5, 2008 @ 12:44 am
To those who lament the alleged loss of pilot light gas ranges: I purchased a brand new gas range/oven with pilot lights just three years ago. It was *far* less expensive than these so-called “Shabbos mode” ranges and as others have mentioned the pilot light is always on and there is no problem with adjusting the flame on Yom Tov when necessary. It also works when there is an electrical outage, as it does not have any electrical components at all! I just checked online and that very range I purchased is still available.
Comment by charliehall — June 5, 2008 @ 1:41 am
52. the star-k certifies some ovens with a “shabbos/yom tov mode” which they claim is matir, through certain kulos,changing the temprature on a electronicaly operated oven.
To those who are defending Rav Heineman, Shlit”a’s Kavod: the gedolim on the kol koreh HoRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv
HoRav Nisim Karelitz
HoRav Shmuel Wozner
HoRav Yechezkel Roth
HoRav Yaakov Horowitz
HoRav Elya Ber Wachtfogel
HoRav Shlomo Miller
HoRav Yechiel Tauber
HoRav Gershon Bess
are far greater then you and they felt that either a)this is not detrimental to his Kavod
b)the detriment to his kavod should not stand in the way of the kol kore
53. We can not say that anything the אחרונים say is a shtus!
Rav Heineman is one posek being matir something for klal yisroel. What do people find wrong with other poskim publicizing their feelings on the matter? rav Heineman publicizes his point in EVERY issue of the kashrus kurents (star-k publication) distributed monthly in your favorite jewish newspaper
Comment by YFR Bachur — June 5, 2008 @ 1:53 am
Commentor #49 - The psak you refer to is posted on the star-k website. If you are suggesting that it is not authentic, does that mean that someone hacked Rav Heineman / The Star-K’s site and posted it there?
Regarding the rest of the discussion… Please note that the gedolim mentioned did not attack Rav Heineman, shlita or his validity as an accepted Posek. In fact they were careful not to mention him by name (presumably so that it would not Chas V’shalom be construed as an attack on Rav Heineman, shlits). Therefore, if someone is a Talmid of Rav Heineman, shlita, he is within his “rights” to follow the opinion of his Rav. (If the aforementioned Talmid chooses he may take on what is, for him, a chumra and be stringent like the majority.) That is how mesorah works. The only time one has to question his mesorah is if the majority of Gedolim are saying that his Rav/Rebbe is krum, chas v’shalom. THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.
The reason many gedolim are discussing this in a public forum is due to the general Am Ha’aratzus of the “frum world.” Rav Heineman, shlita, is a great Rav who views Halacha from his perspective and even after the arguments he is “sticking to his guns.” Nonetheless, the vast majority of Poskim disagree and disagree vehemently. Because of this fact, some of those Rabbonim felt compelled to make a public statement to counteract the sentiment expressed to me by one Baleh Bayis, “But Rabbi, the oven has a Star-K. Didn’t you tell us that this is one of the best hashgachos.”
It is only because they respect Rav Heineman, in general, and vehemently disagree with him, in this case, that they published this Koreh.
As an aside, I know that Rav Gershon Bess, shlita, is not prone to signing Kol Korehs. However, I have heard him speak about this issue and he vehemently disagrees with Rav Heineman on this issue. He explained why and the reason make sense to me. Nonetheless, this IS NOT the forum for posting the explanations why since it unfortunately may be used by some as fuel to mock a Gadol like Rav Heineman, shlita. This is a matter to discuss with your Rov or Rebbe.
As we go into this Shavuos, may Hashem bless us to serve Him with love and awe.
Comment by kiruvrabbi — June 5, 2008 @ 5:44 am
‘YU GUY Starting and stopping waterflow dosnt make a spark which is “aish” wake up!Also makeh bpatish finishes completes the object or system,recycling the electricty.Opening a faucet empties the system.Tremedous difference.
Comment by rabbi108300 — June 5, 2008 @ 12:14 am ‘
First of all, if you are a real rabbi, I doubt you would talk in such a arrogant way. Secondly, I never heard anyone say that a spark has any mamushis, (as brought down in Simon 265, Sif 4),so if you have a source to tell us that it is considered real aish, I would be glad to look it up. Thirdly, maybe electricity is not a question from a faucet, but it is a question from closing and opening a door, which is not considered boneh, because that it it’s normal use, so why is this different? As a matter of fact, it is my understanding that most poskim do consider electricity (not an incandescent bulb)to not be a d’oraissoh for this reason. If I am mistaken, I would be glad to hear it.
Comment by dave375 — June 5, 2008 @ 10:03 am
I find it rather odd that the Star-K has been certifying ovens for over ten years (at least as far as I can remember) and now, a few days before Yom Tov suddenly this issur comes out. Does anyone smell something fishy?
Comment by thebigquestionis — June 5, 2008 @ 10:22 am
rabbi108300: on modern switches there is no visible or humanly detectable spark.
I’m still unconvinced why you think electricity isn’t emptying a system. think a battery, they don’t get emptied? how is this any different.
Comment by Former YU Guy — June 5, 2008 @ 10:25 am
to number 38…. that story does not sound too true.the Divrei chaim died in 1876, which means that this jew must have been -at least- in his eighties when he died. If he truly had advanced tuberculosis, this would have a real miracle…I sincerely doubt that the story is true. Another urban legend.
And to number 30…about this article only appearing in the yated…the chassidische oilam is a lot more lenient in psak than the litvishe oilam. virtually ALL the poskim quoted are litvish.
Unfortunately, the litvishe oilam has become so extreme and so narrow-minded ( see the geirus question) that they will drive away many frum jews who will just not listen to them .
It seems that the ‘koaich dehetra odif’ has been erased from our vocabulary.
Comment by rabbiofberlin — June 5, 2008 @ 10:35 am
Why now? These certified ovens have been available for almost 10 years! I bought mine 6 years ago!
If somebody started selling treif food, G-d forbid, to the frum community I’d expect to hear about it immediately. Not 10 years later.
This strange rabbinic uprising so much after the fact and directly before the Yom Tov (gets more attention then obviously) leads one to wonder.
Comment by AkivaM — June 5, 2008 @ 10:35 am
#38, Sammy, I am very confused by your letter. You seem to be saying that on one hand the gedolim have siyata deshmaya never to make a mistake, but on the other, you quote that they were erroneous when it came to the microscope.
Please enlighten us as to what you mean.
#57, Midwest, the Biur Halacha in 502 says moleed aish is actually a machlokes whether doraisa or drabanan.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — June 5, 2008 @ 1:14 pm
I didnt see anywhere in this article it saying that Rav Heineman was called to discuss his Psak. I called someone at the Star-k to ask if he knew if Rav Heineman was called, and I was told that nobody called. If this is true then how could this be written and published world wide without someone calling Rav Heineman to discuss his Psak.
Comment by Sholom Yehuda — June 5, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
I dont see how yeshivaworld could sign Rav Elyashivs name in the english translaition, if when you look in the hebrew he never signed?
Comment by moishfest — June 5, 2008 @ 3:27 pm
# 69
Great question!!
Yes, they definitely have sayata dishmaya, when USING ALL THE AVAILBLE KNOWLEDGE, thus, even if the metzius is eventually found to be wrong, and a physician making the same mistake will end his patient’s life, the Posek won’t.
Ignoring the evidence is no less then answering a wrong shaala. If you asked about a pupik and were given a psak that if the needle was in the leg it would still be kosher, isnt’t answering anything.
Likewise, if a Rav were to say that all ovens are ok, since in 1930 they were, such a psak cannot carry a syata dishmaya, being that it’s based on wrong premises THAT COULD HAVE BEEN EASILY VERIFIED.
Rov, Sfek Sfeka, all those halachic legal terms are only applicable when the metzius is unknown. You cannot pasken with Rov if you know that htis piece is definitely treif. How can syata dishmaya be expected then?
Now, to the microscope question itself. The issue wasn’t something light. The Gemara exempts one who kills a louse on Shabbos since “ein leidoson nikeres”, their coming to life isn’t observeable. Great many rishonim rule that the meaning of the Gemara is that somethig born of spontaneous generation isn’t alive, in regard to being killed. That would apply, aside from Shabbos, to ever min hechoy, some dinei momonos, etc. So, with the microscopic evidence of lice eggs, those disgusting things that we call nits, and the hatching of these lice, it seemed that the Gemara itself was under a “scientific attack”.
The truth is that the Gemara didn’t mention spontaneous generation, the Rambam did. Even so, the question was that IF the evidence is correct, then killing a louse on Shabbos would be an Issue Mideoraysa, as opposed to the Gemara, which would really shake things up. This wasn;t theoretical, as lice were a part of daily living from hovels to palaces. That machlokes was quite loud, with the dismissers calling some of the accepters basically what you would call a Reform “rabbi” today.
For a possible solution to the apparent contradiction, look up Michtav Me’Eliyahu. There are other venues, mostly based on lomdus, but his approach is a general one to such dilemmas, and is worth studying.
And by the way, nobody dismisses nits today, ask ANY girl’s school
Comment by sammygol — June 5, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
The update provides an example of Chumra Mevia Lidei Kula, unless one knows ALL the details. What was that about Lo Am Haaretz Chasid? And this is precicely why unlearned laymen should observe such intricate Machlokes from the side, wihtout mixing in, without saying sevoros about their OWN ovens, taps, cookie recepies….
These things can burn, I am referring to getting in between, not to the ovens.
Comment by sammygol — June 5, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
sammygol,
This update provides an example of how a person could…..
Even if one someone really thinks he is correct, when ALL the Gedolim disagree with you, it might be time to give in. L’maan Hashem!!
Comment by anonymouschochom — June 5, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
Rav Heineman, shlita, b’darko hakodesh, is a posek and has a right to disagree with the rest of the poskim. We should not find fault with him. He is a big talmid chuchom with a very sharp mind. I have seen him come up with heterim that others did not imagine.
However …. if he is your rov, fine, you may follow his heter, if you so choose. However, if he is not YOUR rov, then you may be better off checking with your rov, as it may be safer to follow the Rove … the majority of the poskai hador who do not permit the grama stuff at all, and also who completely assur these stoves for adjustment on Yom Tov.
You don’t get bigger Torah giants than HaRav HaGaon Shmuel Halevi Wosner, Shlita, (he is the Shevet HaLaivi.)
Also, HaRav Hagaon Yechezkel Roth, Shlita,
Also, HoRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, Shlita,
and the rest. These Poskim are Torah Giants who are respected by ALL, Chassidim and Yeshivish alike. One should think twice before discounting what they say.
The Star K has a right to rule this way, for Rav Heineman is their Rov, but those who are in Rav Heineman’s kehilla need to think twice, and ask a competent Rov, or simply follow the other giants.
Most importantly, let’s all show kovod for the rabbonim on both sides.
Comment by DM — June 5, 2008 @ 7:07 pm
Sammy, very interesting. Where did you get all this info?
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — June 5, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
# 74, what can I answer you? I have heard this shaala a couple of years ago, and even back then most rabbanim were agaisnt the usage of these ovens, and I do not know anyone, personally, who relies on this heter.
Conversly, 500 years ago, every city rov decided his own issues, and only consulted with major poskim when he felt he was inadequite.
On the THIRD hand, you know Jews have as many hands as are needed for a sugya, when Poskei Hador issued a pask, no matter before or after the local rabbi, it took an enormous amount of either greatness or nerve to disregard their opinion.
Draw your own conclusions.
Comment by sammygol — June 5, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
anyone who follows this psak can turn off their monitors before shabbos and yom tov and type in a e-mail or post to a blog and press enter to send because there is no “roshem” to what you are doing. now whoever doesn’t think that they’re violating an issur shabbos or yom tov by doing so can also press the buttons of their oven computers on yom tov OR you could heed the position of the major poskim of E.Y. and America.
Comment by kiruvrabbi2 — June 5, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
all rabonim agree that there are maalos to the basics of shabbos/yomtov mode. the only question is if they agree with the chidush of changing temperatures. b’h’ with a little kavod hatorah moshiach will be here soon.
Comment by moe613 — June 5, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
kiruvrabbi2,
I actually asked this to Rabbi Heineman directly, after hearing his shiur on this topic.
He holds that in your cases it is definitely ASUR!!
However, his chiluk between your cases and the oven was a very iffy svara!!!
Comment by anonymouschochom — June 5, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
Rabbi Heineman is a major posek and tremendous talmid chacham and anav and is not embarressed to say that a heter exists in certain situations even if personally he is machmir on that issue. If a heter exists then it is 100% muttar. A heter is not asur to rely on if needed in that situation. Now let me explain that whether or not you rely on this particular heter I can tell you that in this situation there is NO heter to speak loshon hara! yes, even the written word is loshon hara and yes even when anonymous. In shamayim NOTHING remains anonymous and after Mea v’esrim shana you will have to give a reckoning for EVERY word of loshon hara posted on this site! I feel very bad for some people when one day they will be very embarresed in shamayim when it is known by all who posted what. It may be anonymous now but it won’t be then. You are also speaking out against an adam gadol. where is our emunas chachamim? How can people talk about a massive talmid chacham like this?
Comment by cholent lover — June 6, 2008 @ 12:11 am
no one argues that the sabbath or holiday mode is a great addition otherwise virtually every modern oven would be unusable on yom tov because of the 12 hour cut off and on shabbos because of the electric impact of opening the door!!!!!!!!
MAKE SURE TO TURN YOUR SABBATH MODE ON!!!
IF YOU DON’T CHANGE THE TEMPERATURE FINE
WITHOUT IT YOU WILL BE OYVER BIGGER ISSURIM
THIS IS STAM A MISTAKE TO LEGISLATE FORM THE INTERNET THIS SHOULD BE THE JOB OF OUR LOCAL RABBONIM TOB ADDRESS
Comment by talmid koton — June 6, 2008 @ 1:23 am
There are many inaccuracies in this forum regarding if Gedolim consulted engineers before issuing an Halachic ruling when they confronted engineering issues.
Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L writes (Orach Chaim 4:83) that regarding the mechanics of sound meters, he clarified the issues with the help of his son-in-law Rabbi Tendler.
Doesn’t the Gemara clearly state that “Rav spent 18 months with shepherdas, to learn which physical defects heal with time and which don’t?”
Comment by RagachoversAssistant — June 6, 2008 @ 5:44 am
Remember when a Tshuva used to include a long halachic משא ומתן and be signed by a single Gadol? Nowadays most of the Tshuva are the signatures and very, very little in the way of a halachic discourse.
Comment by NeveAliza — June 6, 2008 @ 8:21 am
I find it amusing, that when, in any of my posts, I question the desisions, thoughts, or motives of any of the Rabbanim, I get jumped on and called Apikorus, Kofer, “are you really religious?” etc.
But now, all of a sudden, people have no problem trashing HaRav Heineman. Hypocrisy?
anonymouschochom: I did not attend the shiur, so I do not know what HaRav Heineman said, but if you are such a chochom, maybe think about this. When you type in a blog and post something, the post causes an immediate, visible change on you computer moniter. Still Iffy?
Comment by TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY — June 6, 2008 @ 8:22 am
If one closely examines the technology behind the “button”, one would clealy grasp that there is no way that this psak is correct.
Clearly there is no permanent change to the Keili as required in order for there to be Makeh B’patish or Mesaken.
Furthermore, Ones ability to impact whether the fire goes on or off by pressing these buttons is limited to a making suggestion to the controlling program in the oven.
Rabbi Heineman’s position that this is a Gramah is absolutely correct.
Whether you Pasken that one can “create” a grahmah or not seems to be the only remaining issue.
Many Poskim pasken that you can move a pin on a shabbos clock on Yom Tov which is creating a Gramah.
This is the same.
Speak with your local Ruv and don’t let him tell “better not”. Get a Psak.
Comment by aml — June 6, 2008 @ 9:39 am
#86 writes - Furthermore, Ones ability to impact whether the fire goes on or off by pressing these buttons is limited to a making suggestion to the controlling program in the oven.
When an oven is doing its normal on/off cycling, if we reprogram a new target for which the obedient servant will switch the mode to the other cycle, isn’t that a definite result?
If I don’t need to open the oven to take out food, and I know that opening the oven is going to trigger it to call for heat due to the temperature loss, doesn’t that preclude me from opening the door? Isn’t this part of the reason why when we take out food we take it all out at once?
Still the problem is how that the reprogramming which happens immediately can be allowed even if there is a pseudo-random delay within the programming.
Comment by Chavrusa O Mesusa — June 6, 2008 @ 1:22 pm
is there even one electrical/electronic engineer from among all the readers and posters who understands the issues as they really are, before anyone gets “lomdish”? It is very nice to debate the halacha, but who on here can really teach us how these programs work, the possible differences in the ovens, and what kinds of circuitry they have. Only then, reading the pertinent p’sakim, can the issues such as g’rama, make bepatish, and mesakein be properly undersood and debated, even if for learning’s sake alone.
Comment by sammygol — June 6, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
Chavrusa: what about if the change only took affect when it could have happened anyways.
i.e. lower temperature, only stays off longer when it would have gone off by itself at previous higher temperature
higher temperature, only goes on longer when it would have gone off by itself at previous lower temperature. one would probably need some indicator to know when its on and off, but old style ovens had that and is how people used them on yom tov.
Comment by Former YU Guy — June 6, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
To #89 Former YU Guy - yes, I agree completely.
There is a Tweaker device featured at the TorahTechnologies.org web site which can be used this way WITHOUT reprogramming, and it can be used along with all the other benefits of Shabbos mode.
I use mine listening to the gas valve and looking for the glow of the ignitor, but I have also heard that since we didn’t need to be so stringent on the old mechanical thermostat, that its not even necessary. And plenty of other examples.
Comment by Chavrusa O Mesusa — June 6, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
“The Gemara exempts one who kills a louse on Shabbos since “ein leidoson nikeres”, their coming to life isn’t observeable.”
No it doesn’t. It exempts one because “ainan parin veravin,” they do not reproduce.
Comment by shlomo x — June 7, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
# 91
Thank you Shlomo, for the correction, but they DO reproduce. Anyhow, my mistake was to quote a rishon’s explanation as the words of the source. My apologies for that error. However, the debate quoted is still the same.
Comment by sammygol — June 8, 2008 @ 12:43 am
I have trouble believing that every Posek in the world disagrees with Rav Heinemann. What appears far more likely is that those who share his opinion are afraid to speak up publicly.
This situation is very unfortunate. A Posek should not have to fear the consequences of issuing a sincerely held opinion that happens to be l’Kulah (lenient).
Those who create this fearful atmosphere are guilty of an Aveirah far worse than Chilul Yom Tov.
Comment by danielb43 — June 8, 2008 @ 12:50 am
# 93
What if they DO agree with him in principle, but do not wish to contradict the greatest poskim of the generation? This is called “bitul daas keneged gedolim”. There are countless instances of this attitude throughout the ages, when a posek, even a major one, submitted to the opinion of another one, or many, whom he considered superior to himself in knowledge, numbers, or experience. And that, on the contrary, is a Kiddush Hashem by a talmid chochom.
Comment by sammygol — June 8, 2008 @ 1:24 am
#94
If other Poskim agree with Rav Heinemann in principle, then Rav Heinemann is not a Daas Yachid.
Still, your point is well-taken. I have no problem if a Posek opts to defer to the opinion of those who are greater than he, as long as he does not feel compelled to do so (or remain silent) out of fear of “Kannaim,” who are known to cause all kinds of trouble when someone issues a lenient Psak that they (in their not-so-humble opinion) disagree with.
Comment by danielb43 — June 8, 2008 @ 2:16 am
#93 - same thing is with the “eruv” issue. many people (especially in Williamsburg) would carry, but they’re afraid of all those “screamers” that yell their lungs off & call them ‘m’chalelei Shabbos’. Also, some rabbanim / dayanim would have been it matir, but don’t want to ’smudge’ their names by doing so
Comment by willi — June 8, 2008 @ 2:39 am
Upon further reflection, it appears that Rav Heinemann is far from a Daas Yachid, as explained further below.
It is well-known that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, ZT”L, was the greatest expert on electricity among the Gedolei HaPoskim. Indeed, he wrote Meorei Aish, a comprehensive Sefer on electricity in Halacha, when he was relatively young.
Rav Shlomo Zalman held that electricity, WHERE NO LIGHT IS CREATED (e.g. using the telephone), is at most an Issur d’Rabbanan (Rabbinic prohibition) even on Shabbos.
Rav Shlomo Zalman would, thus, disagree with the signatories on the Kol Koreh, who state that use of Sabbath Mode ovens on Yom Tov (i.e. raising or lowering the temperature) is a Melacha d’Oraisah (Biblical prohibition). Rav Shlomo Zalman would clearly hold that doing so on Yom Tov is, at most, an Issur d’Rabbanan (on Shabbos, raising and lowering the temperature using Sabbath Mode would appear to be a Melacha d’Oraisah, according to Rav Shlomo Zalman, only if it caused the Melacha of Bishul (cooking) to take place).
In summary, according to Rav Shlomo Zalman, who was not only known as one of the Poskei Hador, but was the most knowledgeable about electricity among the Poskim, there would definitely be no Melacha d’Oraisah to use Sabbath Mode ovens on Yom Tov to raise and lower the temperature. Since we are dealing with what is, at most, a Melacha d’Rabbanan, it is quite reasonable to assume that Rav Shlomo Zalman would agree with Rav Heinemann’s assumption that raising and lowering the temperature on Sabbath Mode ovens is only a Gramma and should be permitted.
Comment by danielb43 — June 8, 2008 @ 9:05 am
to #97 - what is the difference between the light of an ignitor (glow bar or otherwise) and the situation “WHERE NO LIGHT IS CREATED”?
But it should still be of more significance that CLOSING the switch of the control button causes an immediate triggering of a change to the controlling computer and a reprogramming of the new target temperature.
Whether or not there will be a pseudo-random delay between the switch closing and the rest of the actions cannot be that relevant. The circuit through the switch is closed and the computer electronics react immediately.
Especially given that there are alternatives, this is outrageous.
Comment by Chavrusa O Mesusa — June 8, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
Please see my additional posts to the more recent article on this topic (dated June
.
Comment by danielb43 — June 8, 2008 @ 6:22 pm
“There are countless instances of this attitude throughout the ages, when a posek, even a major one, submitted to the opinion of another one, or many, whom he considered superior to himself in knowledge, numbers, or experience.”
Really? Can you name any?
“And that, on the contrary, is a Kiddush Hashem by a talmid chochom.”
I don’t know where you get that from. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggros Moshe (Yoreh De’ah 3:88) says that there is absolutely no inyan for a qualified posek to be mevatel his psak to the Godol HaDor.
Comment by shlomo x — June 9, 2008 @ 3:44 pm