???? ??????? vs. Orthoprax

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  • #617936

    Joseph
    Participant

    Who is worse, a ???? ??????? or an Orthoprax?

    #1158762

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Who is worse, a ???? ??????? or an Orthoprax?

    Who is worse, a Gerer Chossid who follows his Commandant over the wishes of his wife, or someone who eats cheeseburgers?

    Who is worse, Neturei Karta or Open Orthodox?

    Who is worse, someone who steals from the government or someone who consistently misses Zman Kriyas Shema?

    Who is worse, someone who convinces others not to vaccinate, or someone who convinces others to go to college?

    πŸ™‚

    Move for the thread to be deleted.

    (and I’m still wondering how it got approved)

    #1158763

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. Cheeseburgers

    2. OO

    3. Kriyas Shma

    4. College

    Any other questions? πŸ™‚

    #1158764

    Not for you, I already know all your answers!

    #1158765

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: I can hear both sides for all of the others, but I don’t understand your answer to #3.

    #1158766

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, the other side for 3 regarding a nochri government is dina d’malchusa.

    #1158767

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Wrong. The other side for #3 is numerous Issurei D’Oraisa.

    #1158768

    theprof1
    Participant

    A mumar l’teiovin actually does an aveiroh. He likes veal parmigian. He eats it, not to go against Hashem, but because he likes it. But he is still doing an aveiroh. The Orthoprax doesn’t necessarily do aveiros. He just doesn’t really care much about the practice of Torah life.

    #1158769

    Joseph
    Participant

    Which issurei d’oraisa apply to not feeding the meter when parking.

    #1158770

    Theprof1, does he believe in Hashem and Torah min hashomayim and s’char v’onesh?

    #1158771

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Which issurei d’oraisa apply to not feeding the meter when parking.

    1: Assumes not paying is stealing

    2: Assumes Dina D’Malchusa would apply

    3: Assumes we are discussing feeding the meter

    #1158772

    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra: How is not putting money in the meter different halachicly than not sending money to the IRS?

    #1158773

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Depending on how the law is formulated, parking without paying may constitute theft, ?????? ???”? ????? ?????????.

    In any case the question was specifically about stealing from the government, not any other way of breaking the law.

    #1158774

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gavra: How is not putting money in the meter different halachicly than not sending money to the IRS?

    Who says it isn’t? I’m not enough of a rabbinical contortionist to disprove one way or the other. After all, where there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way to obtain Gelt πŸ™

    Clear examples of “Stealing” from the government would be taking benefits where one is not eligible (e.g. due to money earned off the books). Another example is taking government funding that is earmarked for a specific purpose and using it for something else (for example, E-rate).

    I said “stealing”. If you don’t consider the action “stealing”, then think of a different action.

    #1158775

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s Gneivah from lots of people, Oshek, a Chillul Hashem if done by a company, and potentially others.

    #1158776

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its probably easier to get caught not putting money in the meter than cheating the IRS

    #1158777

    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘Clear examples of “Stealing” from the government would be taking benefits where one is not eligible (e.g. due to money earned off the books).’

    Back when I served on a federal grand jury we indicted someone for doing that. If convicted that person was going to have an extended period of free room and board.

    #1158778

    charliehall
    Participant

    I am told that cheeseburgers taste good. I would not know personally as I have never eaten one myself.

    #1158779

    charliehall
    Participant

    It is not a crime to fail to put money in the parking meter.

    But you may end up paying a lot more in fines. In my neighborhood the chances of getting caught approach 100%.

    #1158780

    Joseph
    Participant

    Can we conclude that an Orthoprax is closer to a ???? ?????? than to a ???? ????????

    #1158781

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe – Your opinion was a foregone conclusion before the thread started. You can ask your LOR (if that isn’t yourself) if you have any questions.

    #1158782

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Can we conclude that an Orthoprax is closer to a ???? ?????? than to a ???? ????????

    How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????

    The Wolf

    #1158783

    Joseph
    Participant

    And what is your conclusion on the question?

    #1158784

    How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????

    Agreed. He’s a ????, though, so still worse.

    #1158785

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And what is your conclusion on the question?

    That it is God’s Decision, not mine to make.

    #1158786

    Joseph
    Participant

    “???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.

    ??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”

    Hilchos Rechilus 9:15

    ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????

    Do you disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? The CC says you should judge an apikorus.

    #1158787

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe – Interesting you bring that up. I don’t see you actually doing anything the CC says you should be doing. Where are you outing and embarrassing Orthoprax (or known Kofrim)?

    Emor Harbei, V’Aseh Miyat.

    I don’t know what the orthoprax really believes. I just read an article about a guy who is OTD, and has conversations with God often, with the topic of being extremely angry at God that he doesn’t exist. It is Pashut to me that this person is a Maamin in ways that unfortunately most Religious people are not.

    #1158788

    You call that being ??????

    #1158789

    golfer
    Participant

    Gaw, if it’s any comfort, you’re not the first person to mistake someone in need of medication for a ma’amin (or a prophet).

    #1158791

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And what is your conclusion on the question?

    I would have thought that would be obvious. You can’t intend to make angry that which you don’t believe exists.

    The Wolf

    #1158792

    Wolf, which question are you referring to?

    #1158793

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, which question are you referring to?

    I asked:

    How can an Orthoprax who doesn’t believe in God possibly be a ???? ???????

    and Joseph responded with*:

    And what is your conclusion on the question?

    and so I responded with:

    I would have thought that would be obvious. You can’t intend to make angry that which you don’t believe exists.

    The Wolf

    * Granted, he might not have been speaking to me, but his post was directly under mine, so, without any further indications, I have to at least consider the possibility that he was addressing me. For the record, this is why I always quote what I am responding to.

    #1158797

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    “???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.

    ??????- “???????? ???? ????? ?????… ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???…”

    Hilchos Rechilus 9:15

    ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????

    Do you disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? The CC says you should judge an apikorus.

    Do you disagree with the Chofetz Chaim? I think you do.

    You’ve known, *for years* that I hold positions that many frum people (yourself included) would view as apikorsus. And for years, you’ve been trotting out this statement of the CC’s. And yet, you have not sought to publicly embarrass me, judge me or degrade me, as the Chofetz Chaim commands.

    So, sir, I am calling you out on this. I don’t think you truly believe or wish to observe this command of the Chofetz Chaim as you have failed, for years, to observe it.

    So, in essence, I’m asking you to put up or shut up. Either observe his command and embarrass me and degrade me as per the command, or stop bringing it up.

    The Wolf

    #1158798

    Joseph
    Participant

    I can’t think of any positions you hold that are apikorsus.

    #1158799

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I can’t think of any positions you hold that are apikorsus.

    For starters, I’m not a Young Earth Creationist. I believe that would put me outside the pale for you and many others.

    The Wolf

    #1158800

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, specifically regarding that position, Rav Elyashev stated that while that position is apikorsus, the subscriber of that position is not necessarily personally an apikorus. If I recall correctly I think his reason was because the subscriber mistakenly, but sincerely, thinks its a halachicly legitimate position to hold.

    #1158801

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, specifically regarding that position, Rav Elyashev stated that while that position is apikorsus, the subscriber of that position is not necessarily personally an apikorus. If I recall correctly I think his reason was because the subscriber mistakenly, but sincerely, thinks its a halachicly legitimate position to hold.

    So, you’re going to weasel out of it by saying that as long as the apikorus beleives his apikorsus, then all is well as we can welcome him? I don’t believe that normative halacha views the matter that way.

    The Wolf

    #1158802

    Joseph
    Participant

    I related Rav Elyashiv’s position.

    #1158803

    benignuman
    Participant

    When did Rav Elyashiv say that not being a young Earth creationist is apikorsus?

    As an aside, the whole idea of ikarrim according to the Brisker Rav is that for these beliefs being mistaken doesn’t help, nebach an apikorus is ocheit an apikorus.

    I can’t imagine that Rav Elyashiv held that the age of the Earth is one of the ikkarei emunah (none of the Rishonim that I know of include it or anything like it). So not having a mistaken belief about it would not be apikorsus, it would just be a mistake.

    #1158804

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think the idea that the Dinosaurs died in the mabul is a christian idea

    #1158805

    Joseph
    Participant

    benignuman: As I noted, I was going from memory and as it turns out wasn’t entirely accurate on his position. Here is the relevant communication from Rav Elyashev on the issue. My point remains that Wolf isn’t an apikorus despite his above-mentioned position.

    Dear ***,

    My short visit to Israel last week was, among other reasons, to ascertain Rav Elyashiv’s reason for the issur on Nosson Slifkin’s books. Contrary to rumors, I did not travel on anyone’s behalf.

    Rav Eliashiv felt that the hashkofos of the books regarding Chazal and the age of the universe are forbidden to be taught, and this despite the fact that others, even great people (such as R.Avraham ben HaRambam, Pachad Yitzchok and, in our times, Rav Dessler and R.Shimon Schwab) may have said similar things. “They were permitted to say these things, but we may not,” he said. In other words, the halacha is not like them.

    Most important, Rav Eliashiv said that by his signature on the public announcement regarding the books he did not mean to rule that the author is a min or kofer. As far as he is concerned, Rav Eliashiv said, “the author could be one of the lamed vov tzadikim”; the books nevertheless are forbidden to read. He was surprised when he was shown that the announcement described the books as kefira and minus. He then dictated a statement to me,in the presence of his secretary, Rav Yosef Efrati, and one of his grandsons, which read as follows:

    ?????? ????????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ????

    or, “My intention when I added my name to the public announcement [regarding the issur] was only regarding that the books should not enter the Jewish community.” The word “only” was meant to specifically exclude the implication that the author is a heretic.

    With best wishes,

    Aharon Feldman

    So, I remain with the position that, secretly, Wolf is still one of the lamed vov tzadikim.

    #1158806

    benignuman
    Participant

    Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.

    #1158807

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thanks for the clarification. That makes more sense.

    Agreed. Makes it more like “we don’t want the unwashed masses to know there are other, valid opinions”, but those opinions are not Apikorsus.

    #1158808

    Joseph
    Participant

    That isn’t an accurate summary, gavra. The keywords were the halacha is not like them.

    #1158809

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That isn’t an accurate summary, gavra. The keywords were the halacha is not like them.

    I saw that, and still read it the same way, that it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to disagree and hold the other way.

    #1158810

    golfer
    Participant

    Men.

    The problem is you all think you’re so smart.

    “They were permitted to say these things, but we may not.”

    It may just be a good idea to accept the fact that we are just ants or amoebae compare to the Giants who have preceded us. And there might be a few things, especially in areas like Brias Ha’Olam, that we can’t, with our limited intellect, fully comprehend.

    We can go ahead and give praise that He is Mechadesh Be’Tuvo Bechol Yom Ma’aseh Beraishis, without having a perfectly clear vision of exactly what that entails.

    Safer.

    And smarter.

    #1158811

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    If you’re willing to live dangerously and use garbage bags with food, why be so cautious?

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