just to let everyone know, a lot of songs that are considered not goyish at all are actually stolen from old german songs
YWN Coffee Room » Music
Anyone Else Worried About Today's Frum Music?
(96 posts)-
Posted 2 years ago #
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All through history we were influenced by our surrounding culture. If you listen to chassideshe music it sounds like a cathedral, same with ashkenaz and sephardic music each to their respective country, maybe it's because we use the same instruments. Now we are influenced by our surrounding rock and pop culture. With this in mind what is jewish music???
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think the music is better now, that way teenagers dont listen to goyim music, dont complain about the music, if not your children will be listening to it!!!
Posted 2 years ago # -
i like the music and stuff , as long as its used in a normal way(not jumping up and down with a guitar in your hands and that kind of stuff).
Posted 2 years ago # -
the bottom line is as mentioned before, if you don't make this kind of music being discussed here in the cr, available in jewish version teenagers (not specificaly ones at risk) will turn c'v to places MUCH worse, so don't make problems that the jewish music sounds goyish, the jewish community has enough problems to face as it is.
Posted 2 years ago # -
What's even more troublesome is how our frum Bais Yaakov plays have our frum girls dancing to songs that are not jewish at all. Our girls who until now stayed away from this type of music are becoming familiar with these cd's, and worse are dancing to it. How could the same school that is concerned with their chinuch allow this to go on under their supervision.
Posted 2 years ago # -
wow, made it to the front page on YWN ;)
Posted 2 years ago # -
I never thought much about it until about a year or so ago. I saw a video of a very well known figure in the Jewish music world (no need to mention names) performing at a camp. I was appalled by what I saw: the boys (black hat, mostly mid-teens from what I could tell) hopping up and down and gyrating like animals. It looked like something you would see in the lowliest of goyishe dance clubs. If this kind of music engenders THAT kind of behavior, then I am VERY worried
Posted 2 years ago # -
To Simcha1000: you have a point. BUT I've been to enough productions to tell you that a lot of the music is a lot better than some of the Jewish stuff. (I haven't heard all of Riverdance but it seems fairly unsubversive.)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Besides the Rambam, the GEMARA in Gittin says that -since the churban Beis HaMikdash, casual music listening is assur. However (poskim (such as R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg)say-) the reason why the world is noheg to listen to music is because we'd be too depressed without it!
Posted 2 years ago # -
BS"D
Letting kids gyrate and blow off some steam is what camp should be all about. Basketball is also played by the lowest elements of society. Should our camps stop playing it?
If it is the performer I am thinking of, he does a great job of letting everyone laugh and blow off some steam as they enjoy his antics on stage.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Regarding permitting music in general (not just Jewish music): Rov Soloveitchik permitted all classical music, even when a woman was singing, and even opera. He said that it elevated us. And he meant it as halachah le'maaseh: Yeshiva University held a fundraiser tonight at the Metropolitan Opera and has been doing so for many years, and my own rabbi, a talmid of The Rov, attended an opera last spring.
Posted 2 years ago # -
im more worried that yiddin are still singing negunim around the shabbas table that are use the tunes of old german beer songs
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't know why you think the music at Israeli chasunnas is nice. I always come away with a headache from the drums. Also they play the same songs. They just skip the instruments.
Posted 2 years ago # -
bacci40,
Why does that worry you? Unpleasant thought, yes, but what is the worry specifically about?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm not worried about it at all. I don't listen to it, nor do my children. It's classical music, chazzanut and great jazz for us.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Didn't you every hear the tune (sing to the tune of Asher bara sasson vesimcha)
Asher bora yetzer hora vearbah missos beis din
(continue with tune of gilah, rinah...)
Skilah, srefah, hereg vechenek
Gaiva, taiva, ...I forget how it ended...just a memory from my youth...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Music brings out kochos hanefesh.
A malchuskik nigun like Kel Nekomos brings out romeuskikeh feelings. Songs of devekus bring to devekus.
What do you think jungle music does? It brings out the animal nature of a person!
Also, there are many frum people today who are familiar with the goyishe tunes being adapted to Jewish words. Unfortunately, when the music is played, the old words pop into the brain. (I say unfortunatey because, although Hashem surely chose the upbringing of each of us, we might wish we had the zchus to stop listening to that music earlier, or to purify our neshomos sufficiently that those memories would be eradicated.)
Examples:
Ayelet hashachar, star of the morning....morning has broken (Cat Stevens, I believe)
Anyone know which song has a big piece of "You've got a friend" from James Taylor?
Yidden - from Ghenghis Khan...
And - the worst (in my opinion) - I protested to a frum station that was playing "Halleluka" as part of their daily schedule. That tune was used by George Harrison (of the Beatles) to sing about an avodah zorah, and those who knew that song do NOT appreciate having those words played in their head!Posted 2 years ago # -
Actually, "Morning has Broken" was popularized by Cat Stevens. You'll find it in many protestant hymnals.
Posted 2 years ago # -
>haifagirl wrote:
>Actually, "Morning has Broken" was popularized by Cat Stevens. You'll find it in many >protestant hymnals.
Which serves to underscore the point...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Fortunately, no one remembers the original lyrics for the tunes that we sing Tzur MeShelo to.
Sarah, I also remember the same corruption of Asher Bara. There must be a 600KiloBear in every generation.Posted 2 years ago # -
Isn't he a muslim?
Posted 2 years ago # -
When I mentioned this thread to my husband last night, he reminded me that when ברוך הגבר from the second volume of Amudai Shaish came out, it was אסור to sing it in Torah Vodaas. It was learned that almost note for note, it was composed and sung by a גוי named Ben E. King.
Give me a Reb Baruch Levine song any day and you will feel its Kedusha. He is a true Ben Torah who is obviously not influenced by the goyishe velt. I'll bet he doesn't even listen to it, hence his beautiful compositions.
To the person who wrote that all music is אסור please bear in mind that no less a Godal as the Vilna Goan brings down, that music can bring a person to the highest level of Avoda to Hashem. Furthermore, he says that for a person to know Trop in Tanach, he must be an expert in Music Theory as well as Composition.
Before anyone writes and asks where the source can be found, I saw it in Artscrolls Biography of the Vilna Goan.
Posted 2 years ago # -
BS"D
Skilah, srefah, hereg vechenek
Gaiva, taiva, ...I forget how it ended...it ended in vegilui arayois , and other versions included asher boro yetzer horo boro Bnei Akiva, or (fill in your choice) Yeshiva among other variants.Another version is asher boro dinei nefashois dinei mamoinos
Skila, sreyfa, hereg vechenek, something, koreis, malkois veknas..Posted 2 years ago # -
Per Wikipedia, the lyrics for "Morning has Broken" are by Eleanor Farjeon, set to an old Gaelic tune. Cat Stevens did convert to Islam shortly before recording the song.
Posted 2 years ago # -
chanie t, my uncle told me that another song they banned at that time in torah vdaas was.......Al hanisim val hapurkon....now they sing it Everywhere. go figure
Posted 2 years ago # -
Just for the record, Cat Stevens recorded "Morning has Broken" in 1971. He conversted to Islam in 1977.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"On youtube there's a colored fellow singing Lipa's Vhiskin loi meemeni"
Hey, the Hazkeni singers have more soul, than Yackov Schwecky (check em out on you tube, moderators didnt allow my last attempt at posting a link) and certainly "out schwecky", Mr schwecky himself. Gospel singers, singing carlbach niggunim is all over youtube, his music moved the soul, which is what gospel music, lihavdil elef havdalos, is supposed to do as well.
With that said. I dont mind playing todays jewish music. I'm often in the car for long drives on the highway, and I'd rather hum along to a fast song with hebrew words than something from pink floyd, zz to or the doors (which i find myself increasingly doing as todays jewosh music gets worse and worse).
Posted 2 years ago # -
Personally, I am not a concert goer, so I have no opinion there, however, I find the music so uplifting. Often when I am driving and listening to Jewish music, I almost feel like I am davening, the words have such an impact. And what a wonderful way to get ready for Shabbos, listening to shabbos niggunim, tapping my feet and cooking !!
So, I am sorry, buy I truly feel music has a real impact on ones soul, if one connects to the "One Above" by listening and being moved by the beat and the words.
I remember my daughter saying to me years ago, "Mom, that song makes me FEEL the words I daven every morning" what a wonderful statement about music that makes.Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree with you, rivkib
Music is so powerful, and can even be transformative in a spiritual way.
Posted 2 years ago # -
haifagirl, thanks for the correction. Wikipedia had it correct also, I just read it wrong.
Posted 2 years ago # -
What's this silly argument about letting down our standards so that at least they will listen to this instead of Goyish music. How's about the other way around? These horrible songs actually introduce our youngsters to Goyish music.
Think of music, or more to the point, rhythm as wine, which is Mesamach Elokim Va'anoshim. The right amount elevates the soul but too much evokes a very base behaviour. There is no need to expound on this. This is something anybody can try out at home, if you're honest with yourself. Anybody can see how loose and wild the Bochurim become when this stuff is turned on.
How many times will people bring up this issue of Yiddish music being influenced by the surroundings? Our clothing is also influenced by our surroundings. Does that make it Mutar to follow everything that comes out? Yes, styles seep in, but there is a filter system. Originally, having buttons was considered a very modern thing to have. Understandably, some people put it on regardless, while others don it for business reasons. Later, most people have it besides the few Prushim. In the end, we all have it. But, certain things just don't get in.
I happen to be a big fan of classical music. Many Gedolim listened to classical music. That's not what is meant by Goyishe music. We all sing Happy Birthday although noone has to
exposeit as a Goyishe song. Using the clothing analogy, I'm sure you get the point. When we say Goyishe clothing, we don't mean something that a non-Jew put on; we mean something that a Yid should not be wearing due to its character.It might sound wild, but I'm very sure that the state of our music has
playeda big role in bringing up a generation of spiritless youth.Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm curious as tio why this topic keeps popping up. What defines what is" Jewish " music is a function of culture and age. The surrounding Goyid=sh culture has always influences Jewish Music. That's why my brother-in-law's music ( Iraqi by way of Israel )souns Arabian and my neighbor's ( Bukharia ) is from somewhere in Central Asia. Neither sounds like the ( Eastern Europe )music that is being defined hee as Jewish Music.
With age, each generation considers their parents music as old, their's as perfect and their kid's as horrible.
Halevi said
" I happen to be a big fan of classical music. Many Gedolim listened to classical music""It might sound wild, but I'm very sure that the state of our music has played a big role in bringing up a generation of spiritless youth. "
The generations that created classical music also created the Haskalla and Reform movements
Posted 2 years ago # -
EDITED
Classical music is not bound to a specific time. When we say, classical music, we usually mean to include the Romantic, Baroque, Classic, and all. So, did Bach's music influence Haskala?
Actually I did not bring any proof from the generation. I gave a cause to it. But, do you think that the Enlightenment was a dipping point for the world? I wouldn't want to be caught saying so! It was a rational age. Unfortunately, many behaved like teenagers, that just got some brains and therefore feel smarter that anyone who ever walked the face of this planet.
One thing I'm sure you'll agree we shouldn't take from the Goyim is Haskafa. You seem to have adapted their concept of evolving morals, which they confuse with evolving etiquette. Wild and Megushem are not relative terms.
Posted 2 years ago # -
While classical music certainly continued through the period of the Haskalah, it was around loooooong before.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I agree we shouldn't take Hashkafa from the Goyim but we have been adapting their muic
Posted 2 years ago # -
just remember, while all of you complain about the music,
1. you are still spending money on the stuff
2. this is the way its been forever. most negunim of zmiros are taken from goyish tunes.
3. what do you think sfardi "music" is.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Orach Chaim Tav kuf samech. The gezerah against music zecher lchurban. Sometime, somwhere, the cat got out of the bag. Klezmerim were always there and allowed at weddings,and chazonnim in shuls, but particularly with the advent of recording, and particularly on the american scene, the portzei gader spawned an industry. One doesn't fully understand his rebbe for forty years, but sometimes there is a bright spark that you can catch. My rebbe regarded musicians with deep derision. We assumed it was because the degree of work and practice required was a huge bitul torah. A few rare attendances at "concerts" gave me perspective. It seemed that at every performance, after the performers had the audience emotionally hooked, they would put down the instruments and open their mouths with all manner of krum philosophy. Thats were the most damage is done. That said, I have seen music be the glue that held children together between rebellion and mentchlich.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Oh please everyone. i have so many opinions some agree some disagree. However I think we can agree that we have so many other much much bigger issues that need our energy so lets give this a rest a while huh?
and just fyi.; whats bad to you may bring someone else up! when i was younger there was a certain cd out that was considered controversal. i was too young to know much about that but it helped me through alot, the messages, etc. they have no idea how many people they helped, how many people are frum because of them. (despite the many frummer that couldnt sleep bec of the "tumaa" it contained) I was very sad to hear years later that one of the involved regretted it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
This is not an issue to be taken lightly. Being brought up with this stuff has a very non-spiritual effect, to put it mildly. This is besides the likely link to ADD, as per a certain study with mice.
Would you apply the same thinking to the way of sliding the body that often comes along with this type of music, to say that perhaps it brings you closer to Hashem?
I'll only address those who don't think so. It's pretty obvious that the music is suggesting that kind of movement and behavier. Even if you'll stop your children from acting out the music, do you think the general mood and thought pattern doesn't go into his psyche?
The fact is that music goes deeper into the person than most other messages. This is partly due to the fact that it comes as an enjoyment, which automaticaly has the person agreeing with it. Also, music is something that you feel along with. If the music is conveying feelings that you never anticipated, now, these emotions are a part of you.
And again, the issue is not about who made it, it is about who it will make!Posted 2 years ago # -
wow,
and this was my first post in the CR (not so long ago as I thought) (I guess I started commenting on the main site before I came here which was why I never saw you around yossi, or anyone else for that matter)
Posted 9 months ago # -
This "issue" is hundreds of years old - yawn.
Posted 9 months ago # -
I think it's good that there are many different types of Jewish music. Some Jews don't like the usual Jewish music, and people noticed that and made something they might like. Sure it's not perfect, but it's a lot better than the radio. I agree that sometimes the music is not fitting for the words, and we should be respectful of the words. But generally, if we have a way to inspire people on their level, we should use that
Posted 9 months ago # -
Who said that it's only called Jewish if it's slow music???
Posted 9 months ago # -
sm, those that brought these styles into the Jewish music stage, introduced it to us. There might have been Yechidim that were either BTs or for some other reason needed this stuff. But, on the main, nobody heard of it until the Jewish singers brought it in. And, it is intoxicating like wine. Once our kids are exposed to it, they refuse to put it down.
Posted 9 months ago # -
Rebel,
No one said that (at least not that I saw)
There a slow non jewish songs too
Posted 9 months ago #
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