Bride's Wedding Vow to Obey Husband

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  • #605207

    Herr Himmel
    Member

    The bride’s traditional wedding vow (in the non-Jewish world) is “to love, cherish, and to obey” her husband. The husband’s vow is only “to love and to cherish” his wife.

    What is the meaning of the wife’s vow to “obey” her husband?

    #1170097

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    We’re in the Yeshiva World. How should we know?

    #1170098

    akuperma
    Participant

    In the feudal system, everyone had a duty to obey his/her overlord/master. A wife owed a duty to obey her husband, just like a knight to obey his baron, or a serf to obey his overlord. Jews were not part of the feudal system, so we never had a duty to obey anyone (we also had no rights, but that’s another story).

    #1170100

    The little I know
    Participant

    The significance of the question is that the “obey” thing is accepted nearly universally as a Jewish value. In previous threads in the CR, there were heaps of comments about the husband as the melech, while the wife was relegated to the position of slave (I’m exaggerating, but not by much). It sounded from these opinions as if the “obey” thing was a Jewish value, and that is clearly not true. The only obeying between spouses found in the Torah is ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????, with ????? being Divinely instructed to obey his wife, ???. I suspect the OP was to trigger just this discussion, not to explore the boundaries and rules of the non-Jewish marriage vows.

    #1170101

    shlishi
    Member

    Like much else, the Christian and Muslim world took much of their morals from us, ostensibly. Of course they hardly keep what they purport to, but that is another point entirely. Yes, this point of the wife’s obligation to obey her husband also, essentially, comes from the Torah. See this thread from a more in-depth view with Torah sources demonstrating such:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-torahs-view-of-the-husband-wife-relationship

    It essentially comes from Bereishis 3:16 (????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ?????:), Bereishis 18:12 (???????? ?????:) and is cited as Halacha by the Rambam, Hilchos Ishus 15:20 (??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????. ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????:) and many other sources.

    #1170102

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I’m sorry. I also didn’t think the Torah says ???? ????? ?? by Chava.

    It’s clearly not a Jewish thing, because at some point in history (before Chava’s misstep) she was not subordinate to Adam.

    Oh. The adage to Avaraham Avinu ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????, is not for husband to obey wife, but to listen to a Navi, for Avaraham was a tafal (inferior) to her regarding nevius. So says Medrash. I think.

    #1170103

    mdd
    Member

    It is openly stated in the Rambam that a Jewish wife is to obey her husband (with certain limitations). Zeeskite, we are in the after Odam ha’Rishon’s chet matzav — that’s the difference.

    #1170104

    Whiteberry
    Member

    I’m no expert in the Rambam, but doesn’t the Rambam write something similar to a husband in regards to his wife?

    How do the meforshim on chumash explain hu yimshol bach?

    #1170105

    avhaben
    Participant

    They should stress this point in Beis Yaakovs and in Kallah classes. The girls aren’t sufficiently aware of this halacha.

    #1170106

    missme
    Member

    I knew this already in high school and was reminded of it by my kalla teacher as well. Though I don’t know how common my experience is.

    #1170107

    Whiteberry:

    No, there is no similar halacha for the husband to obey, as the wife is instructed (“????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????.”). Rather the Rambam says a husband must love and honor his wife:

    ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????.

    #1170108

    The little I know
    Participant

    On another thread, I quoted a statement from the Gr”a (in Mishlei) and the Baal Hatanya where they drew a distinction between a ??? and a ????. They each noted that a ??? is someone that is ???? ????. This denotes someone who is similar to others, but is chosen to serve as a leader. This rule is with the full agreement of the subjects. In contrast, a ???? denotes someone who assumes the position of ruler by force or strength. The only mitzvah from the Torah was to choose a ???. All the writings about marriage refer to the regard due the husband as a ???. What is missed by the chauvinistic view is that this ??? is such because the subjects(in this case the wife) choose the ??? voluntarily. The other form of mastery is one forced on the subject, and this is not the expectation of the Torah for marriage.

    Most young kallahs begin their marriage according this royal respect to their husbands. Unfortunately, if the husbands have not learned that they need to earn the respect, and they behave in ways that do not earn that respect, it soon fades into negative emotion, and trouble in the marriage. And when respect is not based on deserving behavior, it loses its clout as respect and becomes nothing more than subservience to dominance. That is incompatible with Torah.

    Please review the sforim about ???? ???. Nearly without exception, there is a chapter about the obligations of the wife to the husband, as well as one of equal length about the obligations of the husband to the wife. The term “obey” sounds too much like someone expecting a response to orders, as one might hope to have trained a pet. That is NOT marriage, and no one should ever construe it as such.

    #1170109

    golfer
    Participant

    Pretty hard to argue with shlishi as he quotes the Rambam.

    But I’m waiting for someone.

    People just find it so annoying when the Rishonim do not concur with their opinions on how the world should be run.

    #1170110

    avhaben
    Participant

    golfer: Until recently, no one – including the goyim – disagreed that a wife must obey her husband. It was only beginning in the 1900’s, after the advent of feminism that it was ever disputed. Before 100 years ago, if anyone argued that a wife doesn’t need to obey her husband, he would have been looked at as missing some marbles. There was never before a misconception that men and women are “equal”. That is a new idea that secular society has been trying to drill into everyone for almost 100 years now.

    #1170111

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lulei D’mistifina, I would say that we have to wonder if the Rambam’s society influenced this Halachah. After all, he also says that a husband should beat his wife if she doesn’t listen to him, something which no one nowadays would agree to.

    #1170112

    “There was never before a misconception that men and women are “equal”. That is a new idea that secular society has been trying to drill into everyone for almost 100 years now.”

    Avhaben, So what you’re saying is that women should be considered inferior to men, & the only reason that the concept doesn’t exist entirely is bec the non jewish culture has decided so? Other than that you have no reason to believe that the concept might have some insight?

    Please elaborate, thank you.

    #1170113

    avhaben
    Participant

    NOMTW: The point is a very Jewish one. It is abundantly clear from Halacha that men and women are not treated “equally” in a marital relationship. Each one has their own — and very different — defined roles. This does not make one “inferior” to the other. Though it is correct to define it as different.

    #1170114

    mdd
    Member

    Sam2, where does he say it? Plus, according to you, it’s only if she does not do what she must do. It is no different from beis-din punishing somebody for not doing his duty.

    #1170115

    bubka
    Participant

    mdd: Sam is referring to the Rambam in perek 21 halacha 10. Though according to almost all meforshim Rambam is saying that Beis Din can hit the wife if she doesn’t do her marital duties (after repeated warnings.) Not that the husband can hit her, as Sam implied.

    #1170116

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    How about a husband’s responsibility towards his wife? In the kesubah doesn’t it say that he is supposed to support her financially? Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM? just venting.

    #1170117

    interjection
    Participant

    “Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM?”

    That’s probably why men say shelo asani isha and we say sheasani kirtzono. because women get both chava’s curse and now adam’s too and society allows (encourages!) them to deny their responsibility.

    #1170118

    mdd
    Member

    Imaofthree, you are right. Unless the woman is mochel.

    #1170119

    Let everyone do their job, and everyone will be happy: The husband must honor, love and support his wife. The wife must honor, love, fear and obey her husband. Everyone should follow the Torah and everyone will be happy.

    #1170120

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I admit Rashi is not a halacha sefer, but, he doesnt interpret “vhu yimshol bach” the way it is implied here.

    #1170121

    vochindik
    Member

    ?????? ???? (?????? ?:??): ???? ??’ ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????.

    Toldos Yitzchok (Bereishis 2:21): And Hashem caused man to become unconscious [when He made Chava] [associated with the creation of woman] – hints that man should make himself unconscious when he is in his house and not to be critical and fussy with his wife and household.

    #1170122

    golfer
    Participant

    I like that vochindik!

    Who is the Toldos Yitzchok?

    #1170123

    Sam2
    Participant

    Bubka: Interesting. The Lashon of the Rambam is in plural, which does imply Beis Din. However, the Ramban quotes it in the singular, which would imply the husband himself.

    #1170124

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    To people quoting ???? ???? ??, way to quote out of context. Here’s a little more from that paragraph:

    ??? ????????? ????? ???????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????????????? ?????? ???????? ?????. ????????? ????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ????????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???????????? ???? ????? ????????. ?????? ?????????? ?????????? ???? ??????????? ??? ?????? ?????????. ???????? ???????? ??????? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????????? ???? ????????? ?????????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????

    The context is that it is a curse, not a directive.

    Would you also say that the Torah is against painkillers during childbirth? Or against technology that stops weeds and thorns from hurting plants? If yes then we have bigger things to argue about.

    What is wrong with society reaching the point where they “fix” ???? ???? ?? as well? On the contrary, it would seem from the context that modern sensibilities in this area are something to celebrate!

    #1170126

    shlishi
    Member

    yitayningwut: There is still the Rambam in Hilchos Ishus 15:20 that was cited earlier as Halacha.

    [as an obligation from the wife] than you suggest above. (See the other thread linked above.)

    #1170127

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Too many names for me.

    #1170128

    mdd
    Member

    Yitay, do not be lazy — look up the sourses.

    #1170129

    Joseph
    Participant

    Ben Ish Chai (Torah Lishma 319):

    Question: Is a wife obligated to listen to her husband when he orders her to do ridiculous things? For example, does she have to listen when her husband demands with threats that she should ride on a broomstick in the courtyard like little children do or to bray like a donkey or bark like dog? She refused because of embarrassment. Does she in fact have an obligation to listen to her husband even for foolish things because a woman is obligated to honor her husband and to do what he wants because that is his happiness? Or do we say that she has no obligation to listen to foolish demands?

    (Translation by Rav Eidensohn)

    #1170130

    Meno
    Participant

    Joseph,

    What’s the ashkenazi psak?

    #1170131

    Sparkly
    Member

    Herr Himmel – me and my husband are going to love, and listen to each other h’h.

    #1170132

    BOTH spouses should respect and obey each other equally for the priceless treasure they each have for one another.

    I.e. if you loved Hashem/parents so much for all they do etc… You would be willing to do anything for them

    #1170133

    Sparkly
    Member

    Mashiach Agent – i agree.

    #1170134

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Rav Sholom Arush has a book for women on Sholom Bayis and a book for men on Sholom Bayis. In the introduction to each book, he warns the opposite gender not to read the book, but the warning to men is MUCH STRONGER!! In the men’s book, I think he just gives a bracha to women who don’t read it, and in the women’s book, he gives a REALLY strong warning to men not to read it.

    Basically, the obligations of a woman to her husband are for HER; they are not meant for him to hold over her head. He has to worry about his obligations to her, not her obligations to him!

    #1170135

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, why’d you ignore his warnings not to read his men’s book? 😉

    Many rabbononim disagree with R. Arush’s marriage advice.

    Also, Rambam and the halacha specifically state the husband should take his wife to beis din if she fails to perform her various marital obligations for him.

    Meno, the Ashkenazi poskim pasken no differently.

    #1170136

    Meno
    Participant

    We got that set as a wedding gift

    #1170137

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Since when is the wife or her parents responsible to support HIM?”

    They aren’t. Every Askenazic Ketubah for the past millenium has stated otherwise.

    And since we are quoting Rambam it should be noted what else Rambam wrote, about being supported in learning by the community:

    ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??????:

    #1170138

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – lol, I was waiting for someone to say that! I’m not exactly the kind of person you can put a book in front of and tell me not to read…

    #1170139

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Meno, are you a man or a lady? Just curious.

    #1170140

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Charliehall – Rav Moshe Feinstein has a Teshuva where he speaks very harshly against people who don’t learn in Kollel because they don’t want to take money to enable them to learn.

    #1170141

    Joseph
    Participant

    Don’t worry lilmod, I also plan to disregard his warnings and read his women-focused book too. 😉

    #1170142

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph, he said it’s worse for men!!! He had much stronger warnings for men!!! That’s cuz it will cause more of a problem for a man’s shalom bayis if he reads the women’s one. For women, he just gave them a bracha if they don’t read it. That’s okay – I’ve gotten brachos from more chashuve people in my life.

    #1170143

    Joseph
    Participant

    I disagree with him as it pertains to myself.

    #1170144

    Health
    Participant

    Joe – how many SN’s you got on this page?

    “is instructed (“????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???. ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?????.”).”

    And also work at least 40 hrs. a week. Also take care of the kids and do all the housework!

    Joe – Did I forget anything?

    #1170145

    Meno
    Participant

    I am a man

    (am I allowed to say that?)

    #1170146

    Person1
    Member

    I wonder don’t they talk about this in seminaries? I’m sometimes confused about what the torah wants from women. But no one talked about it in the yeshiva. I’d expact they would in seminaries though.

    #1170147

    Joseph
    Participant

    Person1: Why do you assume they don’t teach this in the seminaries? Most do.

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