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It seems to me that Dati in Israel isn’t necessarily what we call right-wing frum here. From my experience in Israel, there are people who call themselves Dati who may or may not wear yarmulkas all the time and even with yarmulkas they still demonstrate a more relaxed attitude, say, in relation with negiah with women or mixed swimming or the like. So does chareidi apply to not only the very right-wing frum but even more moderate frum?
Why do you assume that “Dati” only applies to people who aren’t completely (hashkafically) shomer Torah umitzvos, leaving the term “chareidi” for everyone else?
I would think you need an Israeli to explain the nuances of that society.
That being said, many of those who in America would be “Chareidi” would not be described as such in Israel.
many of those who in America would be “Chareidi” would not be described as such in Israel.
I disagree.
Israeli (zionist) Hebrew uses the word “Dati” as equivalent to the word “religious” in English. When used for a Jew, it would indicate that person is basically frum (at the minimum Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kashrus). “Hareidi” (what in English is frequently translated as “Ultra-Orthodox”) is a type of “Dati” (all Hareidim are Dati’im, but not the reverse). Defining “Hareidi” is almost impossible (based on clothings or hairstyle?, how one votes?, if one is for or against the Medinah? etc.).
Note that in Yiddish, there are no equivalent words, since the concepts didn’t exist. The distinction is alien to Jewish tradition.
What would you consider yourself in chu”l? Because the term “Modern Orthodox”, much to the chagrin of people who would call themselves that and are totally shomer Torah umitzvos, also includes marginally religious.
I believe a majority of MO would not be considered right-wing (RWMO). A lot of people who would’ve been considered RWMO became Chareidi. You can go to almost any Chareidi community or shul in chu”l and find members who were themselves (or their parents) previously affiliated with MO.
N.B. “Right” and “Left” refer to which side of the French parliament deputies sat during the Revolutionary period, which was BEFORE Jews were allowed to vote or hold political office.
One should try to translate the discussion into Yiddish, not using “modern” words invented since the haskalah (if you need a date, use 1789 – the year everything changed in Europe). You can’t. In Jewish traditions, the vocabulary didn’t exist.
akuperma…………………
Don’t bother translating the discussion into Yiddish for me. This 5th generation born in America frum 60+ year old and is 6th generation children and 7th generation grandchildren don’t use Yiddish.
BTW>>>neither did any of my maternal line, even back in Germany prior to coming to NY in 1868.
and yes I went to Yeshiva in NY, my sons in NY and EY, grandsons too young, and we attended shiurim in Hebrew, English and Aramaic, not Yiddish.
Not all frum people are of eastern European lineage that speak, read, write Yiddish…or have any desire to do so.
Defining “Hareidi” is almost impossible (based on clothings or hairstyle?, how one votes?, if one is for or against the Medinah? etc.).
“Frum is the relationship one has with God. Chareidi is how you present yourself to the rest of the world.” Quoted from a friend of mine.
N.B. “Right” and “Left” refer to which side of the French parliament deputies sat during the Revolutionary period, which was BEFORE Jews were allowed to vote or hold political office.
Also, you shouldn’t use those words that way if your country
didn’t have a central government at that time. Those words
cannot be applied to the people of your country.
(RebYidd23, do I have your approval?)
“Frum is the relationship one has with God. Chareidi is how you present yourself to the rest of the world.” Quoted from a friend of mine.
Frum could also be completely external, and chareidi could be one’s relationship with HKB”H. If you friend doesn’t agree, he’s a bigot.
DaasYochid: I disagree. When someone is called Frum and even Chareidi these days often results by how they dress and present themselves to the world. That is external, but a persons relationship with Hashem is eternal.
The guy in Monsey who sold treif chickens was considered very Frum, or Chareidi as is others who have done some heinous things.
Akuperma, in a way “right” and “left” are appropriate as the leftists in the French National Assembly were republicans (every Jew decides for himself how to be holy) and the rightists monarchists (Hashem is King). However, Rav Kook (“March of the Camps”) decried the use of chareidi and chofshi (the only labels in his time) as they prevent teshuva. The former thinks that he has nothing for which to repent (after all, he shakes at the word of Hashem) and the latter thinks that as a religious term it does not apply to him.
DY: I would also rephrase:
“Yeras Shomayim is the relationship one has with God. Frum, Chareidi, and all the other labels are how you present yourself to the rest of the world.”
What would you consider yourself in chu”l?
A Quaker. Or hopefully Rav Moshe’s term “Yeraim”.
Barry,
I don’t think you understand what I said.
Gavra,
Yes, I know you have your meshugas about the term “frum”, but most people simply use it to refer to shomer Torah umitzvos.
Frum could also be completely external, and chareidi could be one’s relationship with HKB”H. If you friend doesn’t agree, he’s a bigot.
I think the quote is better in the original version. And, just to be truthful, the friend is a she – not a he, and she’s not a bigot.
Females can also be bigots.
What was the original?
The term “Dati” is used to mean what would be called “Orthodox” in the US – which runs the gamut from barely Shomer Shabbos to Satmar. There are subdivisions is Israel, as there are in the US – including “Dati Lite”, which would be the very left wing of the spectrum, and “Chareidi”, which is NOT the same as American Yeshivish, though the “uniform” of black hat/black suit/white shirt is the same (American Yeshivish is generally much more open to secular/professional education and working with the outside world than Israeli Chareidi). That’s the reason many American Yeshivish Olim have issues, particularly with their children, when they move to Israel – they think they are Chareidi and send their children to Chareidi schools, but find that the Hashkafa of the school is not the same as the Hashkafa in the home, leading to confusion and, at times, rebellion.
In Israel, you also have “Torani”, or “Dati Le’umi Torani”, which are the very Frum Dati Le’umi – who can be just as Makpid on Shmiras Torah u’Mitzvos as the Frumest Chareidi, but have a different Hashkafa – they tend to view the existence of the State of Israel, or at a minimum, the widespread return of Jews to historic Eretz Yisrael, as having religious significance, and act accordingly. That’s part of the reason you don’t really have this group in Chu”l – for them, living in Israel has such religious significance, they would not consider living outside of it.
There are, of course, those who are on the borders of various groups – Chardal, or Chareidi Le’umi, who are somewhat between Chareidi and Dati Le’umi, though there can be significant overlap between this group and Torani. And, as we all know – two Jews, three opinions – so all feel free to create their own unique “group” that they alone to belong to…
an Israeli Yid
And, just to be truthful, the friend is a she – not a he
It’s prohibited min haTorah for a guy to have a female friend. Igros Moshe (E.H. 4:60)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-moshe-feinstein-prohibition-of-social-dating
Look at my first post. That was the original quote.
Then I guess she’s a bigot.
The term “Dati” is used to mean what would be called “Orthodox” in the US – which runs the gamut from barely Shomer Shabbos to Satmar.
Why is Satmar frequently used as the example of being the most religious? i.e. in the above quote aIY is going from barely religious to very religious.
Joseph – You ignore the substance of the post to quibble with a colloquial reference? How typical.
In any case, I do, in fact, agree with you that Satmar is not really the “most religious” Orthodox group – after all, the “most religious” group would not engage in practices (Arka’os, just to start with) that lead to major Chilulei Hashem.
an Israeli Yid
The only relationship anyone has with G-d is Creator/creation. Beyond that, it’s r******* to think in those terms. You daven and ask Hashem for things? That’s avodas Hashem. You think you’re in a relationship? Become a nun.
Then I guess she’s a bigot.
Why do you think so?
Squeak, what is your definition of “relationship”?
DaasYochid: Sorry, I didn’t see the quotation marks that you were responding to someone’s statement.
Takahmamash, she seems to be saying that being chareidi, as opposed to other forms of frumkeit (sorry, gavra, but I will continue to use the term which 99% of us use) is merely external, which shows an unfair bias.
Of course, I don’t know the person or context in which it was said, so I’m open to explanation that that is not what was meant.
Barry, no problem.
Squeak, we can be considered not only as creation to Creator, but also as children to Father, subjects/servants to King, and even ???? ??? ?????, whatever that means. We also find the ???? of ??? ???? as a description of the relationship between HKB”H and klal Yisroel.
I don’t know why you dismiss the notion of relationship. Of course it’s very different than human to human relationships, but Chazal did use human relationships as a moshol.
Do you have confused with someone else? Maybe Noah Webster?
Takahmamash, she seems to be saying that being chareidi, as opposed to other forms of frumkeit (sorry, gavra, but I will continue to use the term which 99% of us use) is merely external, which shows an unfair bias.
And I’ll just agree by saying ALL Frumkeit is external, not just the Charaidi type.
Thanks for the mention 🙂
At least you’re an equal opportunity offender.
“the leftists in the French National Assembly were republicans (every Jew decides for himself how to be holy) and the rightists monarchists (Hashem is King”
For the next 150 years in France, the leftists would emancipate and then defend Jews against anti-Semitic persecution. (Zola and Clemenceau, who defended Dreyfus, were leftists.) The rightists would persecute Jews such as Dreyfus and eventually turn Jews over to the Nazis during the Vichy regime.
During the decades after World War II the French left was pro-Israel — getting Israel the Dimona reactor and selling it combat aircraft, for example. De Gaulle was the symbol of the French right and he was an anti-Semite who tried to destroy Israel.
In recent decades the French right has dropped its anti-Semitism; Sarkozy actually had Jewish ancestry and was proud of it. Even Marine Le Pen has called out her father for HIS anti-Semitism. And Baruch HaShem the French left continues its outspoken support of Jews; there is a video on the internet of current Prime Minister Valls proclaiming to the National Assembly of France that “France without Jews is not France!”
The dictionary doesn’t say that creator/creation is not a relationship.
Charlie, DeGaulle was not a rightist. He withdrew from Algeria and abandoned the pieds-noirs (French settlers) and, in fact, was the target of a rightist assassination plot. as for the Left, in both America and Europe it is virulently anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. However, those in positions of national leadership know what would be the consequences of a Jewish exodus to an already troubled economy.
Dr. Hall,
What are the French leftists views now on Jews and Israel? I don’t know, but I would presume they are anti-Israel, like most leftists today.
“Charlie, DeGaulle was not a rightist. “
He dominated the political Right for his entire political career.
Of course, by US standards, the Right in France is to the left of Barack Obama.
“as for the Left, in both America and Europe it is virulently anti-Israel and anti-Jewish”
I have already proven that that statement is a lie. Unless you think that Manuel Valls isn’t from the Left.
Charlie,
1. He dominated it in the sense of controlling it.
2. Where have you proven this? Are you aware of the atmosphere on campuses?
3. I have already explained why European officials make conciliatory comments about Jews. BTW, as an ardent secularist who opposed a branch of a national store in a Moslem neighborhood selling only halal food I would not consider him a friend of frum Jews. Substitute “kosher” for “halal” (interestingly leftists are davka attacking Moslem practices which are similar to Jewish practices, such as circumcision and ritual slaughter).
The current French socialist government has been cracking down on Muslim organizations like crazy. It just extended a state of emergency that it has used to conduct thousands of raids. Mosques and Muslim businesses have been shut down and the civil libertarians are up in arms. All because of the threat of Muslim terrorism.
Yet commenters here continue to insist that the French Left is anti-Semitic. This despite the fact that for the entire history of France going all the way back to the Middle Ages it has been the French Right that has been hostile to Jews.
People here are so invested in right wing politics that they put those politics ahead of the interest of Jews. It is truly a blatant example of assimilation. You can wear a yarmulke and eat kosher but your thinking is that of a goy.
And no, I don’t defend all European Leftists. George Galloway and Jeremy Corbyn are rashaim! You have to look at each country separately.
People here are so invested in right wing politics that they put those politics ahead of the interest of Jews. It is truly a blatant example of assimilation. You can wear a yarmulke and eat kosher but your thinking is that of a goy.
yeah, that’s basically what we think of your opinions generally. It doesn’t matter what the French right and left were in the middle ages. Today it’s the worldwide left that is the biggest danger to religious freedom, and the biggest reshaim regarding Israel. And you have to be in a coma not to see it.
“Today it’s the worldwide left that is the biggest danger to religious freedom”
Yes, the Muslims are complaining about how the French Left is cracking down on their connections to Middle Eastern terrorists. A danger to religious freedom.
You are the one in a coma.
You are being insensitive to people in comas.
You are being insensitive to people in comas.
It’s ok, then can’t see it. Unlike lefties who see it very well, but pretend not to.
So tell us Charlie:
Is it right or left wingers who want to:
ban milah
ban shechitah, and have done so in some European countries
force frum schools in the UK to teach its values on sexual orientation and gender roles
force christian business owners to violate their religion over providing a 10 dollar pill
That’s a few just off the top of my head. Why don’t you tell us a few stories about right wing proposals that would infringe on your ability to practice religion?
Charlie disappears when he has no answers.
10 month old thread
Bumping a couple citing Rav Kook. Recently someone told me to look him up.
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