do i get an aveirah if i don't do shnayim mikra?

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  • #615108

    kugler613
    Member

    the title speaks for itself

    #1064217

    mdd
    Member

    Shnaim mikra echad targum is an obligation stated in the Shulchan Aruch. If you don’t fulfill it, you do get an aveirah.

    #1064218

    yytz
    Participant

    What about shanayim mikra of the haftorah? I think I’ve heard that mentioned as a rabbinic obligation, but I’m not sure if it’s widely considered as an obligation, and I’m not sure if that many people do it…

    #1064219

    Mortke
    Participant

    ouch! is it too late to start?

    #1064220

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    mdd,

    does that mean someone that puts on his shoes in the wrong order, or someone that washes his left part of his body first also gets an aveirah?

    #1064221

    goofus
    Participant

    What does is mean to “get” an averiah? Can you also give an averiah?

    #1064222

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    I do not think you get an aveirah, you just fail to fulfil the Mitzvah. Does one get an aveirah, if they miss Kriyas Shma Bizmanoi?

    #1064223

    Joseph
    Participant

    The halacha is to be mavir sedra by saying each pasuk twice followed by the targum. Yet some replace the targum with rashi.

    #1064224

    Sam2
    Participant

    The whole question is juvenile. Little kids have to think in terms of “getting” Mitzvos or Aveiros. Normative Psak is that it’s a Chiyuv. Not doing it is abrogating that Chiyuv. How much will HKBH punish you for ignoring this particular Chiyuv? Well if I knew that, I wouldn’t be human.

    #1064225

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s harsh, Sam. That’s what he meant, although you may not like his choice of terminology. We don’t either know the precise onesh for being oiver on an issur.

    #1064226

    sam4321
    Participant

    See this Raavan :

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14544&st=&pgnum=108

    and see this Shubulei Haleket and notice the first word :

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14636&st=&pgnum=98

    Then see the Shulchan Aruch

    #1064227

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In a similar vein to sam4321’s sources, the Chofetz Chaim in Likutei Amarim Perek 5 writes:

    ???

    ?????

    ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????

    [emphasis added]

    #1064228

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not sure why you didn’t link ??”?, but here it is with ?”?:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=127&hilite=

    #1064229

    mdd
    Member

    Coffee addict, very possible. Pashtus,one does get an aveirah for not following that directive of Chazal.

    PAA, I hear the diyuk, but it is a befeirushe Gemorah to do shnaim mikra echad targum. I wonder why he wrote it like that. At the very least, it a minhag Yisroel.

    #1064230

    Sam2
    Participant

    mdd: It is not at all a B’feirush Gemara that it’s obligatory. Just that good things happen if you do.

    #1064231

    barlev
    Participant

    Just in case you aren’t aware, it’s also a ????? ??????? ????, therefore the time spent saying ????? ???? will be a good investment

    It’s also a good idea to start before barmitzvah, then you get used to it

    #1064232

    stam a deya
    Member

    ??”? ???? ???? ???? ??? (?) ??”? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????.

    it is a chiyuv drabanan like any other chiyuv drabanan

    #1064233

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    mdd,

    being mevatel aa mitzvas aseih isnt the same as violating a lo sa’aseih

    you only get an aveirah if you violate a lo sa’aseih

    #1064234

    Joseph
    Participant

    ca: No aveira for skipping any of the following mitzvas aseih?:

    Believe that there is a Hashem

    Davening (i.e. skip tefilos)

    Tefilin

    Say krias shma

    Eat Matzah on Pesach

    Kiddush and Havdala on Shabbos

    Put mezuza on door

    Kibud Av V’Eim

    Bris Mila

    etc.

    #1064235

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    can one get malkos for any of the mitzvos?

    when violates a lo sa’aseih isnt it possible to get malkos?

    also some of the mitzvos you mentioned have a lo sa’aseih involved (bris milah)

    #1064236

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1064237

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, ca, who said anything about malkos? And what lav is violated if one doesn’t do milah?

    #1064238

    catch yourself
    Participant

    The Gemara’s terminology is ????? ????? ???, so it would seem to be obligatory, and, of course, this is how it is understood by Shulchan Aruch. It seems to be a ???? ????? (as opposed to a ????, the implication of the Chafetz Chaim’s wording notwithstanding).

    Although there is no specific ???? prescribed for one who violates even most ????? ??? ?? ????? (of course, as is well known, ??? and ???? are the exceptions to this rule, as failure to fulfill either of those ????? carries a punishment of ???), it is clearly an ????? to do so (as evidenced by the famous Gemara about ????? ?? ???? ????? and the Yerushalmi regarding failure to fulfill Tzitzis ????? ?????, among many others), since the concept of ????? is simply transgression of the ???? ???. This is clearly true of anything accepted by Halacha as Ratzon Hashem, regardless of its origin.

    #1064239

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Gemara also says:

    ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ???

    Does that mean that anyone who doesn’t have his cash in hand or trivide his wealth is violating a chiyuv d’rabanan? The Gemara in Berachos knew of the word “????” and chose not to use it. There are differences between the Gemara’s different expressions – see for instance the Teshuvos Maharil siman 57:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1145&st=&pgnum=40

    So I don’t think one can definitively prove from the Gemara that shnayim mikra is a bona-fide chiyuv (especially in light of the other sources mentioned above). However if you want to argue based on the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch, that’s a horse of a different color, and I would find it a lot harder to argue that “???? ????? ?????” is not an obligation.

    #1064240

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    dy,

    not being an areil (uncircumcised)

    malkos is usually given for lavin that you have one witness

    #1064241

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Which lav is that? Is not eating matza also a lav (Don’t not eat matza)?

    Maybe it’s a lav not to say shnayim mikra: “Don’t be a non-shnayim-mikra-saying person”?

    Just because you can phrase something in the negative doesn’t make it a lav.

    Also, malkos needs two eidim.

    #1064242

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    dy,

    malkos mardos does not need two eidim

    i am sure that being an areil is an aveirah (possibly get kareis)

    #1064243

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    fyi dy,

    i dont agree with all mitzvos aseihs are a lav if you dont do it (as an earlier post states) im just pointing out that milah is

    #1064244

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Milah is an aseh sheyesh bo kares.

    #1064245

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    dy,

    i stand corrected, you are right

    #1064246

    Sam2
    Participant

    Milah and Korban Pesach are Aseis that get Kareis if you are Mevatel them. The Rishonim try to figure out why it could be that one gets a punishment for a Bittul Asei. There seems to be an assumption that (prescribed) punishments only come for Lavin.

    #1064247

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, where do get that makkos mardus doesn’t require two eidim? It’s not one of the exceptions the Rambam brings.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?rid=14504

    #1064248

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    sorry, i meant hasrah

    #1064249

    mdd
    Member

    The Gemora says that if one violated an ase, if he does teshuvah, he is forgiven right away. We see that if someone is mevatel an ase, he needs mechilah. Obviously, there eas an aveirah involved!

    #1064251

    mdd
    Member

    Gemorah in Kesuvos (87A(?)) says that if one refuses to do an ase, we hit him till he dies.

    #1064252

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Semantics aside, the presumed issues are: 1. Is shnaim mikra a chiyuv? and 2. Assuming it is, does noncompliance with the chiyuv pass the mysterious threshold of “aveirah”?

    The first issue is pretty much straightforward. Despite all the cute diyukim above, the sh”a paskens that it is a chiyuv. As far as the second question, it is nearly impossible to answer without further detail, and is mostly a question of assumptions and semantics.

    #1064253

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can’t put semantics aside. That’s the main debate here. If everyone would agree to a single definition of “aveirah”, we would all be in agreement.

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