english names for misheberach for cholim:is it permitted?

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  • #601954

    for example i was in an anonymous shul this past august, and a guy there called out two english names to have misheberachd.for example butch johnson and mack goldstien is this permitted?*names have been changed. if you really want to know the real names feel free to inquire.

    #850921

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you don’t know the Hebrew names/mothers’ names, why not?

    #850922

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Among the Rissians its Russian names ie Svetlana bas Genya since some don’t have or don’t know the Hebrew names.

    I assume that Hashem understands

    #850924

    apushatayid
    Participant

    It is recorded that when R’ Yackov Kamenetzky Z’l was ill, at the minyan of R’ Moshe z’l they were making a mi sheberach for him. They didnt know his mothers name. R’ moshe told them to make a mi sheberach for “R’ Yackov”, the ribbono shel olam knows who we mean. I assume the same is true for mack goldstien.

    #850925

    besalel
    Participant

    what about zeesha, faigy, blima, and other ashkenazi names which are not jewish names but jews use?

    #850926

    Those names are 1000% Jewish now. No one else uses them for centuries now. So is Shraga Feivel, regardless of its origin.

    #850927

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Shamaryahu.

    I believe I heard it from my Rabbi that one should try to have the name said as close to the derech as possible, but if you cant, it’s ok, Hashem knows who you are talking about.

    #850928

    MDG
    Participant

    “Those names are 1000% Jewish now.”

    At first they were not, and some how they became used be Jews. There must have been a turning point with those names. So too, there can be a turning point with English names.

    #850929

    There is a huge difference.

    Those names are Yiddish, and Yiddish is a Jewish language. They may have come from German and Slavic roots, but they were absorbed into Yiddish.

    English is not a Jewish language. Yeshivish and haymish are not Jewish languages; they are euphemisms for bad English or tzibruchene Aynglish. The turning point for English names came and went when assimilation was considered the in thing. That changed was over after the war and really ended in the 60s.

    It almost happened that French names became accepted among North Africans in place of Hebrew and Judeo-Arabic names. Sadly, it is happening again in EY because of the desire to be “European;” names like Nathalie that have no business being given to Jews are back in style in EY – and those same names are being dropped in France and Canada in favor of proper shmos beYisroel.

    #850930

    MDG
    Participant

    “English is not a Jewish language. Yeshivish and haymish are not Jewish languages; they are euphemisms for bad English or tzibruchene Aynglish. “

    German was not a Jewish language either, but somehow it became Yiddish (pun intended). People added some Hebrew, and after a while it became a Jewish language. At the same rate, give Yeshivish a couple hundred years and it will become the new Yiddish language.

    #850931

    besalel
    Participant

    yiddish is not a jewish language it is a foreign language used exclusively by jews. there is a difference.

    also, historically, we adopted names from the goyim and “converted” them to judiasm, like alexander, for example.

    also, the amoraim were not always known by (or even have) a jewish names.

    #850932

    Sam2
    Participant

    Bear: Jews have always taken names from surrounding people and languages. After a while, they actually become Jewish names and stay that way. Where do you think the names Mordechai and Esther come from?

    #850933

    No, Yiddish is a Jewish language, with words that are specific to the Jewish experience. It is no different than modern Hebrew, except that it is regionally exclusive to Europe. The tzioinim claim that anything that evolves in golus is not Jewish – and that to them also includes much of halacha. We don’t define Jewish according to their standards.

    Once we convert a name, it is ours – once a non-Jew converts, he is a Jew. That name has been elevated, for whatever historical reason, and that is the end of it. If all we have for a Jew who needs rachamei shamayim is a clearly non-Jewish name, we use it – but it is also a great time to give that person a real Jewish name. And if that name is from Yiddish or Judeo-Arabic or Ladino because the person wants to remember a relative, so be it.

    I think yeshivish will die out now that the Internet makes it possible to learn proper English. In any case, you do not have a written version of yeshivish (or hymish), except when Purim rolls around.

    #850934

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Ber, Volf, Glickel, Chinka, Harry, Seymour, Betty, Sally. The last 4 names were not popular in Europe, only reason they were not adopted as yiddish names. Well, that and the fact that they are not yiddish words.

    #850935

    dullradiance
    Participant

    English started to form from German as a language about 1,500 years ago.

    Yiddish started to form from German as a distinct dialect about 800 years ago.

    Today, there are probably more Torahdikeh seforim, books and publications in English, then there ever was in Yiddish.

    Of course English is very limited and some ideas can only be expressed in Yiddish.

    #850936

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Great Bear.

    I would like to add that English is also of Indo-European language stock, just like all the others you mentioned.

    Additionally, for the sake of discussion, I would argue that there is no bad English. What is considered proper English now, may very well have been bad English back in the day. When you contrast British with American English, you see how things become subjective.

    The English language, as you may know, was established with influence from among the wealthy and poor, educated and ignorant, and every other idea that came down the pike whether it made sense or not or whether it was decreed by a king or used by plebes, serfs…criminals, or whatnot.

    English is evolving as we speak….see, it just changed with the addition of a new definition for “viral” derived from the consuming culture of today’s youth.

    One day “chillax” (to chill out and relax) may make it to the dictionary. It is already part of new speak.

    Words and spelling of words and their use makes English kinda like gathering all the scraps from the deli cutter and mushing it together. You have good cuts and rind all mixed in together. The outcome is neither good or bad; only functional or not, depending on the “environment” one is working or writing in or for.

    #850939

    R’ Moshe ZTL, has a teshuva concerning Jewish names. Is maskana in that case was that any given name is a Jewish name. I.E. Violet bas Doris

    #850940

    BTGuy, English is basically a Germanic language with many loan words from other languages as is the case of Yiddish. One of the reasons that Yiddish speakers had a relativly easier time picking up English is it’s similarity to Yiddish

    #850941

    Anyway, regarding the original topic:

    Yes, if that is the only name you have, that is what you use. Try to at least get a mother’s name, even if it is just a non-Jewish name.

    Here we have many BTs whose fathers don’t have Hebrew names, and in many cases the fathers are no longer on this earth to have brissin and take new names. We call them up for an aliya by their shem beYisroel ben their father’s only known name.

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