Lying about games involving cholov stam

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  • #615354

    I don’t think they’d be assur, just as exaggerations like

    “I’ve told you a thousand times” are not, because it is known

    that it is not intended as the truth (although in this case, it is known only that it is not necessarily the truth), but do you

    think they would be bad chinuch? (Or do you think they might be assur?)

    #1132628

    Chortkov
    Participant

    You discussed something similar once, with a fascinating psak from R’ Yackov zt”l [which you somehow decided we don’t hold of]. (If your subtitle isn’t just a joke)

    I’ll post a link.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/weirdness-factor-in-books#post-529113

    #1132629

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why would you suspect it might be assur, that you question this?

    #1132630

    Thanks, Yekke2. Good memory! (My subtitle is no joke.)

    It’s not a p’sak, and as far as people holding of it,

    in your experience, do the creators of material for frum

    children appear to have taken this dei’ah into account?

    Re-posting for others’ convenience:

    “Even the talking lampposts on a Torah tape for children,

    Reb Yaakov felt,lessened a child’s sense of the distinction

    between truth and falsehood.”

    -Reb Yaakov (ArtScroll)

    So yes, it seems likely Reb Yaakov would think it was bad chinuch.

    Another reason to think it might be more of a problem than exaggeration

    is that exaggeration is not meant to mislead.

    #1132631

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    There is possible proof that chalav stam is mutar not only bshas hadchak.

    #1132632

    Wrong thread, JT?

    #1132633

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    There is possible proof that chalav stam is mutar not only bshas hadchak.

    Right. One of the main teshuvas that is used as proof that chalav stam is mutar only bshas hadchak (dire circumstances) is YD 4:5 but that teshuva seems to be talking of a specific case in a specific circumstance, a community (Toronto) was thinking of switching to chalav stam after keeping chalav yisrael and Rav Moshe tz”l wrote that you shouldn’t do it unless it is bshas hadchak. How does that compare to other cities that were keeping chalav stam before Rav Moshe tz”l gave his heter.

    #1132634

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Another proof is the teshuva from Rabbi Forst shlit”a printed in the back of Hilchos Kashrut (I believe, can someone confirm) that is from Rav Moshe tz”l to Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey saying that it is not proper to be meikel if one can get chalav yisrael with just a little extra cost and bother. But that teshuva was written in ???? and yet it is not in the Igros. Why not?

    #1132635

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    And an important blow to the chalav stam bshas hadchak opinion is that, I believe, Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a holds in the name of his father that chalav stam is mutar meikar hadin.

    (Mods, it is a clean link, if you can’t post it, please post post without link)

    sorry, we don’t post links

    #1132636

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Don’t rely on me when I say that Rav Dovid shlit”a holds chalav stam is mutar mikar hadin. Contact him directly (or a close talmid).

    And as always contact your own Rav (From me, not mods)

    #1132637

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Jewish Thinker – Did you mean this thread? I’m sure the Mods will be happy to remove them from here and replace them in their intended location…

    #1132638

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    More research is needed on the chalav stam bshas hadchak issue.

    #1132639


    Participant

    Don’t rely on me when I say that Rav Dovid shlit”a holds chalav stam is mutar mikar hadin. Contact him directly (or a close talmid).

    Not everything that R’ Dovid holds of is the same as his father held.

    #1132640

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I don’t know if it’s forbidden, but it’s definitely bad for children.

    I don’t believe in telling children things that are untrue, even as jokes, because then they will not know when to trust you.

    #1132643

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Dash-Your right. But I think this one Rav Dovid shlit”a says in the name of his father.

    Comlink-X- I hope you don’t mind that I hijacked your thread with my chalav stam posts. If you do, I’ll stop.

    #1132644

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I’m sure nobody minds that you hijacked a thread that had pretty much finished itself off, but what made you choose to post a series of “chalav stam” posts on this thread; wouldn’t it be more suitable to hijack, say, the Parah Aduma thread?

    #1132645

    TheGoq
    Participant

    What games are you talking about?

    #1132646

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    More research is needed on the chalav stam bshas hadchak issue.

    Or as they say in halachik literature, ?”?.

    #1132647

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Do you think it is ?”? or ??”??

    #1132648

    Neither

    #1132649

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    So what do you think?

    #1132650

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Anyone hold it is ??”??

    #1132651

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If a game involves lying about chalav yisrael you shouldn’t play.

    #1132652

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    There is more to it, but here is the basics:

    Chalav Stam Bshas Hadchak Proofs:

    1)YD 4:5

    2)Teshuva to Rabbi Weinfeld

    Chalav Stam Meikear Hadin Proofs:

    1)Rav Dovid Feinsein shlit”a (on the Matzav website (search “Matzav Rav Dovid Feinsein chalav yisroel”) it does say one should get chalav yisroel if it easy to get, but the terminology “bshas hadchak” is not there; it is more compatible with Rabbi Weinfeld’s teshuva)

    Chalav Stam Meikar Hadin Rebuttals:

    1a)YD 4:5 is specific case in specific circumstance

    2a)Teshuva to Rabbi Weinfeld is not in the Igros

    #1132653

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Moderators, if you don’t mind and if I get Comlink-X’s approval can we switch the title of this thread to “Games involving lying/Chalav Stam”?

    #1132654

    The thrust of R’ Moshe’s teshuvos in the Igros point to the heter not being recommended unless it’s sha’as had’chak, the teshuva to R’ Weinfeld merely enforces it, and there could be any number of reasons it wasn’t printed in Igros, but l’maaseh, he wrote it.

    That the heter should only be used b’sha’as had’chak, and that it’s muttar meikar hadin, are not mutually exclusive.

    #1132655

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Mods-Hilarious!

    DY-For the purposes of this discussion, meikar hadin means not bshas hadchak.

    Where in the Igros Moshe does Rav Moshe tz”l say only bshas hadchak? YD 4:5 is a specific case. That is how Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn reads the teshuva. (See the Yad Moshe) So now you are left with a teshuva outside the Igros. That teshuva does not say “bshas hadchak” just “not proper” and one “needs” to get chalav stam. Now, I am not 100% clear on what Rav Dovid shlit”a says his father’s opinion is. But he clearly does not say “bshas hadchak”.

    #1132656

    There are many levels of sha’as had’chak, ranging from slight inconvenience or increased cost, to choleh. I don’t think R’ Moshe only wanted people to rely in the heter for a sha’as had’chak on the level of choleh where there’s no alternative.

    However, the fact that R’ Moshe intentionally (according to R’ Belsky) made sure to add “baal nefesh yachmir” to every teshuva, plus feels that mosdod hachinuch should be makpid even at great cost, plus, despite his great anavah, writes that he personally was makpid, is a strong indication that where there’s no or little extra cost or inconvenience, he feels one should not rely on the heter.

    #1132657

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    That just proves a baal nefesh should be machmir. That a mosdod hachinuch should be machmir. And he was encouraging people to keep chalav stam when he personally wrote he is machmir. Where is your proof that if it costs a little more one should be machmir?

    #1132658

    Common sense (and the generally accepted halachic approach) dictates that when something is halachically superior, one should incur a slight loss for it.

    The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld proves that this is the case. The fact that it wasn’t printed in Igros is entirely irrelevant.

    “???? ?????” is actually a bit stronger than what I’m saying.

    #1132659

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld proves that this is the case. The fact that it wasn’t printed in Igros is entirely irrelevant.

    No. It was written in 1956. That could easily make it into the Igros. There is something a little bit strange about why it is not in the Igros. I’m not saying it is completely immaterial, but there is a pretty good question about why it is not in the Igros.

    #1132660

    What percentage of teshuvos that he wrote made it into the Igros Moshe?

    #1132661

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    When Rav Moshe tz”l puts it in the Igros, it is considerd paskening for the whole world. It doesn’t really matter what percentage. Finding a teshuva outside the Igros is not always so relevant. There is a mystery here. I am not saying Vdai that the teshuva is not important, I am concluding ?”?.

    #1132662

    I’m not sure why you would think that a teshuva he wrote, which was printed, just not in the I”M, is less than relevant. Do you have inside knowledge of what the criteria were for being included or excluded? Maybe it was excluded for the simple reason that there was no chiddush there.

    #1132663

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Right. As I said, ?”?.

    #1132664

    If there’s no reason to doubt the veracity of the teshuva, what further iyun is required?

    I can say ?”? about anything, really. Maybe Rav Moshe assered cholov stam, and he meant the opposite of what he wrote. ?”?.

    #1132665

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    ?”? means when things seem to contradict or more information is needed to finish the puzzle. In this case, we have reason to doubt the teshuva, bec. it is not in the Igros and how does it fit with “baal nefesh machmir”. Also, I don’t know if this is the way Rav Dovid shlit”a says his father’s opinion is. It could be. But it may not be.

    #1132666

    Maybe the calendar is wrong, and Pesach isn’t until next week. ?”?.

    #1132667

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DY- Everything makes sense. Pesach is this evening. That is not true by chalav stam as I wrote in my above post.

    #1132668

    There is no reason to doubt the teshuva. He wrote it. Not being in the I”M means nothing. There’s no stirah to baal nefesh yachmir. He wrote that when it was very difficult to get CY. When it became easier, he wrote tzorich l’hasig. The halacha didn’t change, the circumstances did.

    Rav Dovid may hold differently than his father about tzorich l’hasig. That doesn’t change what Rav Moshe wrote and allowed to be published. Nor does that teshuva make cholov stam assur, it just says explicitly what Rav Moshe held should be done l’maaseh under easier circumstances. ???”?. It makes sense.

    #1132669

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Well, I disagree with you that not being in the Igros is immaterial.

    Rav Dovid shlit”a, I believe, says this in the name of his father. (I’m not 100% sure what he does say).

    #1132670

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DY-Chag Kosher Vsoemach

    #1132671

    Thanks, you too.

    #1132672

    eric55
    Participant

    You are all replying to the OP who wrote “Lying about games involving cholov stam”

    I have no idea what he wants or is asking i cant make out a question or a comment am i missing something?

    #1132673

    Eric55, the original title (which you can see by looking at the address bar) had nothing to do with cholov stam. For some reason, Jewish Thinker started discussing it here, and a mod altered the title.

    #1132674

    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    Well, I miss Hershey bars since I started keeping Cholov Yisroe’l. They are made with real milk. The Jewish chocolate, even the expensive ones, are made with milk powder and it’s just not the same. I miss good, cheap chocolate.

    #1132675

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    MRS PLONY- What you are saying is subjective. Someone may like chocolate with milk powder better than liquid milk. There are many delicious chalav yisrael brand chocolate bars, which one may like more than Hershey.

    #1132676

    AFAIK, the only product which doesn’t have an equivalent (or close) version in CY is ice cream.

    #1132677

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    I disagree with you on that one, DaasYochid.

    #1132678

    Do you think CY ice cream is just as good, or that other products are also significantly better? If so, which ones?

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