High School Crisis

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  • #588922

    yros
    Member

    Why has it become the style for yeshiva bochurim not to go to high school (especially in Lakewood)??

    I think that this is outright wrong. people need an education for life. Not everybody will sit and learn forever.

    What’s the CR’s take on the matter?

  • #643268

    noitallmr
    Member

    I think it’s very important to have an education no matter how Frum you are. A person has to know what’s going on in the world and many subjects will help you eventually. For example you’ll need maths for a few Mesechtos like Succah and Science will triple your Emunah and awe of Hashem’s creations.

    Yes- it’s definitely very important and it’s a great shame not to go to a high school.

  • #643269

    yros
    Member

    noitallmr, you added on some very important points. i would have never opened a biology book if not for high school.

    thanx

  • #643270

    shindy
    Member

    To each his own. But don’t start sending me letters when you want to marry off your kids!

  • #643271

    modernduck
    Member

    I disagree. If they really need an education they can go to courses like cope given by The Agudah

  • #643272

    yros
    Member

    what do you mean, shindy!!!??

    since when is it hard to get married if you got an eduction??

    i never heard of such a thing?

  • #643274

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    high school is important!!! i never head abt in places like lakewod that boys dont go o high school!!! that’s bizzare!!!!

  • #643275

    thereject18
    Member

    i agree with you 100% asdfghjkl

  • #643277

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    thereject18

    welcome to the cr!!! you’re only been a member for 15min!!!

  • #643278

    oomis
    Member

    That’s funny – I got the opposite impression from Shindy. That she was saying, well if they don’t want to go to school, that’s their business, but don’t bother coming to HER when it’s time to marry those kids off.

  • #643279

    and then he got blocked!!!!!!!!

  • #643280

    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    yeah are people getting blocked under their screen name instead of member!!!

    seems like a night for new members!!! welcome ya all!!!! join the fun!!!

  • #643281

    it says on another thread-that if u make yourself a bunch of names there going to block some of your screen names

  • #643283

    eesymb
    Member

    It seems to me that the reason that you would send your children to high school is that they would become an educated self sufficient and contributing part of our society, and not just a drain on our social services ( welfare, food stamps, medicaid).

    How can you expect them to do anything in today’s world without even a minimal education? We have an obligation to educate our children, a chiyuv to do so, and those who don’t, are failing therir children miserably and destining them to a life of poverty unnecessarily. Their shidduchim have nothing to do with that. Don’t worry so much about what your neighbors are thinking! TAKE BETTER CARE OF YOUR CHILDREN INSTEAD.

  • #643285

    shindy
    Member

    Yes oomis1105-

    That is exactly what I mean. If a family or child decides that getting a secular education is not for them, then that child grows up, marries, has ten or eleven children and then guess what, it is time to marry them off and he has all these debts. Then they have to go door to door collecting. Why anyone would want to chose to be in such a position is beyond me. A Rov from Israel that learns in the Meir told my husband he has never before seen so many people coming to the Meir asking for Tzaddakah. The situation for people in learning is horrible. We just gave $500 to a friend of ours who is collecting for a Talmid Chochum who has a child to marry off in terrible situation, but that is just a drop in the bucket for these people whose need is so great. And the yidden in America have lost their jobs and have their own financial crisis.

    I thought it is a mitzvah to teach your son a trade, just like you are supposed to teach him how to swim. It is not fair to teach them how to be a shnorer. I am only hoping I should never be in that position!

  • #643286

    tzippi
    Member

    This is a serious issue. Believe it or not, I think it is possible to make a reasoned decision to let a child drop English after a certain point (though a GED would be lechatchila in this bedieved), provided the kid knows that if his future is predicated on a rich shver, he has to evaluate things. There are parnasah options for kids who want to remain in the daled amos of the beis medrash, whether safrus, milah, shechita, hashgacha and more. Parents have to really know their children and have partners they can work with within the yeshivos.

  • #643287

    shindy
    Member

    Look what is happening to the lakewood yeshivos. They have no money to pay their teachers. Is this a direct result of most of the parent body not having money to pay full tuition? By not getting an education this will perpetuate this scene over and over again.

    They are ossuring the internet, but they will take money from my husband who makes his money by yes, using the internet.

  • #643288

    shindy
    Member

    “There are parnasah options for kids who want to remain in the daled amos of the beis medrash, whether safrus, milah, shechita, hashgacha and more.”

    Tzippy, do you honestly think that this is a parnosah option for people who have 12 children? I am constantly flooded with calls and mailings from these very people. They do not have jobs that give them much health insurance so if they have one kid with health problems they are wiped out. These are very meager paying jobs, okay if you do hashgocha for a major kashrus organization but how many people want to travel constantly to hong kong and india etc. I guess shechita they can make a living we always need meat and chicken but how many shochets do we need already.

  • #643289

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    never mind the kid’s future. even if his parents are zillionaires and he’s gonna be able to learn for the rest of his life (not that anything is guaranteed but even IF) – it won’t kill anyone to be a little knowledgeable!

    i think it’s a laziness. yeshiva guys take advantage and attribute it to “frum”

  • #643290

    Esther1
    Member

    Brooklyn- I’m not saying that I’m pro no-ed. However, I wouldn’t attribute it to laziness. I don’t believe that most eighth graders make their own decision where they’re going for high school. They may be included in the decision that is made by the parents. I’m not sure that I’m being clear. What I mean to say is that parents might say to a child- this is what kind of school we decided you are going to, do you have a preference of School A or School B, both of which fall into the same category.

  • #643291

    shindy
    Member

    I don’t agree with you brooklyn19, they aren’t lazy. They really want to stay in learning (who wouldn’t want to?) My hubby wanted to stay in learning but guess what, nobody was going to support us so he went to work.

  • #643292

    Bais Yaakov maydel
    Participant

    i dont know about kids not going to school but i know for a fact that many yeshivas in lakewood dont have any english/secular curriculum.

  • #643293

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    not all kids. there are a few that are really sincere. and yes, plenty of kids are really learning during that time. but i think it’s become cool to skip english. especially when there are 5 geniuses who get in the high 90s on their regents without opening a book.

  • #643294

    I don’t remember who said it, but I heard that a Rav (and a prominent one at that), said, that if kids who are in a yeshiva where secular studies are part of the curriculum, it is bittul zman not to try your utmost.

    that being said, not studying secular subjects as well is ridiculous. I am in 12th grade, and realize that it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to support my family. The Ketuba says it is my responsibility, not my father-in-law’s … to mooch off of him would, in my eyes, be disgusting

  • #643295

    yros
    Member

    If kids misbehave that is bitul zman

  • #643296

    shindy
    Member

    TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY-

    Good for you! IY”H you will make a good husband one day. may there be more like you

  • #643297

    thank you … amen

  • #643298

    Esther1
    Member

    Shindy- I can tell that you’re a good mother.

  • #643299

    postsemgirl
    Member

    Sending yeshivish boys to high school would be a waste of time. I work in an elementary school for boys and it is a waste of time. The kids see it as a time to act out and have fun. There is no point.

  • #643300

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    postsem – there’s where you’re wrong. we gotta change their attitude, not the curriculum.

  • #643301

    postsemgirl
    Member

    brookly19-

    I don’t think it is possible to change the attitude if in 5th grade already they think of English as a time to have fun. Any Ideas

  • #643302

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    yeah.

    1. get the parents to at least pretend they care
    2. get decent teachers
    3. capital punishment! lol

    but seriously, if the whole feeling they get from everyone – including their parents, teachers, and principals was not so flippant, maybe there would be something to work with.

  • #643303

    postsemgirl
    Member

    sorry i missed a n in your name.

  • #643304

    postsemgirl
    Member

    I don’t know. I don’t see what the big deal is if a boy starts learning all day when he gets to high school. Why should he care about slopes and ancient civilizations and clauses and phrases?

  • #643305

    yros
    Member

    postemgirl: your right but still there should be strict english. It is not right

  • #643306

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    he’ll grow to be a burden on society! i’m very into learning and kollel and the works. but you need to be a capable, somewhat knowledgeable person to be able to live in the world. even gedolim in america are not blank when it comes to the outside world. i’m not saying they have to study sociology. but basic history and english is vital.

  • #643307

    oomis
    Member

    Schoolboys will take school seriously when they see that their PARENTS do. A secular education is not only necessary, it is crucial. What a generation of illiterates we will be raising if they do not understand the importance of being able to properly read, write, do math and understand something about the world! The problem is that many parents are not on the same page as the schools, and they are not supportive of the secular studies departments.

  • #643308

    postsemgirl
    Member

    I think an elementary school education is ok. it makes the chillul Hashem in the schools less that is for sure

  • #643309

    intellegent
    Member

    This is unrelated to the topic but TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY’s mention of the “ketuba” made me write this.

    I am curious why some people pronounce all Tav’s with the hard sound “t” and never use the “s” sound. As far as I remember Tav is pronounced /t/ when there is a Dagesh Kal in it and pronounced /s/ when there is not. It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the word kesuba.

    Can someone explain this to me? Do you use these pronunciations in Davening as well?

  • #643310

    intellegent
    Member

    “It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the word kesuba.”

    I meant that there is no Dagesh Kal in the Tav of the word Kesuba.

  • #643311

    tzippi
    Member

    Shindy, I mentioned those parnasa options because I think they are reasonable hishtadlus. But you have a point, but then is the only logical conclusion that our kids only become professionals?

  • #643312

    shindy
    Member

    The logical conclusion is that our kids have to know that mommy and daddy are not going to be able to support them forever, so if they chose to have professions that earn little money (and no health insurance)be prepared to live in poverty. My parents raised us that if we were old enough to get married, we are old enough to be independant financially. My husband wanted to learn, great, we lived in a mouse infested basement with used furniture, I worked so he could learn, and we were not supported by ANYBODY. Where do we see kids like that nowadays? I’m not saying the kids should be doctors and lawyers but they need an education to make a parnosah, not to spend their days asking for tzaddakah and their nights worrying.

    Even people who are professionals are having a hard time now. But I think the people in learning are in a worse matzav, and I don’t want that for my kids or grandchildren. It is horrible to live in poverty, to need hand outs, to go to others and ask for money.

  • #643313

    Mrs Tzippi:

    Don’t they say what makes a nice jewish LAD is if he’s a Lawyer, Accountant, Doctor?

  • #643314

    Josh31
    Member

    Even for those going into learning on the track to become future Torah leaders, having at least the standard level of math and language skills is essential. Chazal (Torah leaders of about 1500 – 2000 years ago) speak severely about a Talmid Chacham (Torah scholar) whose manner of dress is substandard. Illiteracy is the modern equivalent of substandard dress. Having Torah scholars lacking a High School education will bring down the level of honor for Torah and its scholars.

  • #643315

    intellegent
    Member

    can anyone answer my question that I asked before?

    Why do some people pronounce all Tav’s with the hard sound “t” and never use the “s” sound. As far as I remember Tav is pronounced /t/ when there is a Dagesh Kal in it and pronounced /s/ when there is not. It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the Tav in the words kesuba, Shabbos, Mitzvosai (AKA Ketuba, Shabbat, Mitzvotai) just some words I came across recently. Anyone?

  • #643316

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    sephardim and dati leumi :}

  • #643317

    myshadow
    Member

    no clue intellegent, start a new thread you’ll probably get your answer

  • #643318

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Actually, there are many subjects that are really important for talmidei chachamim to understand in order to delve deeply into the gemara. Math skills are important, basic anatomy….even astronomy!

    Aside from that, some of these subjects are needed for basic life skills (going to the grocery store and knowing your bill is approximately right)…

  • #643319

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Intellegent, I thought it was a regional type thing. Remember the sibolet/shibolet thing in Tanach? (I forgot where it is exactly)One side used that word as a password because the others said it differently. [OK, I realize this is barely information, maybe someone else can point you to the source?]

  • #643320

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    yeah when they were trying to stop either shevet efrayim or menashe – i’m not remembering – from crossing the yarden they made them say a sentence and depending on how they pronounced it, they knew which shevet they were from. ouch my tanach is rusty.

  • #643321

    Anonymous

    there have been many successful people who have droped out of school

  • #643322

    Feif Un
    Member

    My brother learned in Chaim Berlin for high school. In 11th grade, he wanted to drop out of English classes, and learn the entire day. R’ Chaim Segal zt”l told him NO WAY! He said it is very important to get a high school diploma, and he had to finish up his secular education in the yeshiva. He told him, after you finish up those classes, you’ll be able to sit and learn the entire day. Until then, work hard at your secular education.

  • #643323

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    there have been many successful people who have droped [sic] out of school

    I think that I would ask for a definition of the word “many” in this context.

    Nonetheless, yes, there are people who have been successful despite dropping out of school – but those people are the (exceedingly rare) exceptions and not the rule.

    The Wolf

  • #643324

    intellegent
    Member

    SJSinNYC,

    It’s true, but as far as I know, it is definitely not the correct havara for ashkenazim. I think it only became popular since the Hebrew language came about. That’s why, I think it is incorrect to be using that havara for lashon kodesh. If you are speaking the language (which is NOT Lashon Kodesh) then use the correct accent. But really, I don’t think it makes sense to use it when davening/learning

  • #643325

    dd
    Member

    intellegent,

    Why do you assume that everyone is ashkenazi? Do you think the Rambam pronounced it “kesuba”?

    Most ashkenazim I know in Israel, use the Israeli (sephardi) pronounciation for conversation and switch to ashkenazi pronounciation for tefilla.

    I can’t see why you have your knickers in a twist over someone using the sephardi havara for a comment on the YWN coffee room.

    By the way, when you say “shabbos” do you put the accent on the first syllable or the second? One is correct and one is incorrect regardless of whether you are ashkenazi or sephardi.

  • #643326

    oomis
    Member

    The proper pronunciation for Hebrew is “t” not “s”, and it is the way the language was more likely spoken in the days of the Beis (or rather, Beit) Hamikdash. Does anyone really think that the Ashkenazic pronunciation, which is only a few hundred years old, if that, is more choshuv than the original spoken Ivrit? Regional dialects are just that – regional. Some people say “ee” for what has always been pronounced as “oo.” Yeshivish people say Toyrah, for Torah. Litvaks and Galitzianers also have different ways of pronouncing the same word. What’s the difference, as long as it is all directed towards Yiddishkeit?

  • #643327

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    wolf

    Albert Einstein

    Billy Joel

    The Wright Brothers

    Tom Cruise

    and a ton more

  • #643328

    Joseph
    Member

    The closest dialect to the times of the Beis Hamikdash is probably the Teimani.

  • #643329

    yros
    Member

    people notice the successful ones not the unsuccessful ones. i think that most people w/o a high school diploma can’t get too far in the business world

  • #643330

    intellegent
    Member

    dd,

    I don’t think everyone is ashkenazim. But right now I am speaking about ashkenazim, not sphardim.

    oomis1105,

    Why was that more likely to have been spoken that way in the times of the bais Hamikdash? Were some dikduk rules made up later on? Also as some previous posters mentioned, different shvatim had different pronunciations even in the midbar . In that case there is no one correct pronunciation.

    Joseph,

    I think I remember that temanim are supposed to pronounce gimmel and dalet differently with a dagesh kal.

  • #643331

    blue shirt
    Participant

    The nature of spoken language is that of constant change. As has been mentioned here, regional dialects are different from each other and interactions with other regions accelerate changes. There is no way around it. There are many different dialects , even in davening among seemingly homogeneous groups. A Californian-born yeshivishe person sounds different than a Brooklyn-born yeshivishe person. Al achas kamah v’chama among populations from very different backgrounds.

    Therefore it is pointless , even ridiculous, to discuss the “correctness” of one dialect over another, or one “havara over another”. All, every single one of them, from Teimani to Unterland,from Brooklyn to Buchari is legitimate, that is the nature of spoken language. And yes, even “litvishe yeshivish ” and “dati leumi” are equally legitimate. Ooo or eee, sss or ttt, ohhh or oyyy or aiii, they all count. Daven the way you daven, it is ok.

    To illustrate the point, the gemarah in brachos requires the elongation of the “dalet” (do you say “daled”? It is “dalet”, but that’s ok!) at the end of the word “echad” in shma. It is a time-honored tradition to attempt this. However, no Ashkenazi or North African is capable of accomplishing it, as the dalet begins and ends abruptly, and what is actually elongated is the kumatz of the chet, as in “hashem echaaaaaaaaaaD ! So we are fooling ourselves into thinking that the dalet is elongated. There are dialects which pronounce the the dalet as a vibrating “th” sound, which can be elongated. So are ashkenazim reciting shma incorrectly? No, because dialects change and there cannot be a single unchanging one, nor has there ever been.

    To the language experts out there, I apologize for using incorrect terminology, I myself am not a linguist.

  • #643332

    tzippi
    Member

    Brooklyn19, Billy Joel’s up there with my favorite Jewish singers (whoops, wrong thread 😉 but seriously, the general studies dropouts are not aspiring to those kinds of successes.

  • #643333

    anon for this
    Participant

    brooklyn19,

    Albert Einstein dropped out of high school after he wrote his first scientific work, but later attended college. I don’t think his “dropping out” is comparable to what we’re discussing here, because most of those dropping out of yeshiva don’t plan to attend college. Even if they did, most colleges today require a high school diploma or GED.

    Orville Wright did not finish high school; Wilbur did but didn’t receive his diploma. However, it may be harder to succeed today without a high school education than it was 100 years ago.

    While Billy Joel and Tom Cruise have had successful careers without finishing high school, I don’t think most yeshiva students are interested in these types of careers (as tzippi noted).

  • #643334

    dd
    Member

    Plenty of people succeed without a high school education. For example, there’s Chris, the nice young man who fills up my car at the local Esso. (He’s single too, if any of you need a shidduch.) There’s also Maria who cleans our home on Tuesdays and Fridays. (She’s married though, with children and grandchildren.)

  • #643335

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Brooklyn,

    As someone already pointed out to you, Albert Einstein did go to college. In fact, he earned a PhD from the University of Zurich.

    The Wright Brothers did not complete high school — that is a fact. Nonetheless, they lived in an age when completing high school was more luxury than necessity. Many people in the 1880s and 1890s did not complete high school; they were often forced to go looking for work to help out the family. That reality, however, does not exist today. You really can’t use The Wright Brothers as a comparison. Were they alive as teenagers today, you can bet your bottom dollar that they would complete their high school education.

    Billy Joel and Tom Cruise have a fairly unique quality — they have been blessed with very unique talents. Not any shlub off the street can walk into a studio and open a $100M movie based on name recognition alone. Not any shlub can announce a concert at Shea Stadium and sell out the tickets 45 minutes after they go on sale. The fact is that these people (like many professional athletes) have such unique skills that they don’t need an advanced education to make a ton of money. But the fact of the matter is that the reason they can make so much money is because their skills are exceedingly rare. You can’t tell the average kid “it’s okay to drop out of high school like Celebrity X,” because the average kid doesn’t have the God-given unique talents that Celebrity X has.

    That being said, let’s talk about what the more typical kid might find. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, here are the usual median weekly earnings of people in the US by education for Q3 2008:

    Less Than High School: 471

    High School Diploma: 618

    Some College Education: 725

    Bachelor’s Degree: 1020

    Bachelor’s Degree or more: 1131

    Advanced Degree: 1333

    I have data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics going back to 2000, and the relationship between education and salary always holds. The more education the average person has, the more they earn.

    Is it possible for a person with little or no education to strike it rich? Absolutely. But in just about every case, you’ll find that the person either has an incredibly rare and valuable skill or is incredibly lucky (and won the lottery). For the other 99.99999% of the population, you need an education.

    The Wolf

  • #643336

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Oh, and one more point… Tom Cruise did graduate high school. He graduated from Glen Ridge High School in 1980 (age 17).

    The Wolf

  • #643337

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    lol still – Albert Einstein was an odd-ball. he didn’ finish high school but yes he was to college.

    and anyway my brother has a law degree and he never completed high school either. don’t ask how!

  • #643338

    anon for this
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    Thanks for correcting me about Tom Cruise. Actually I didn’t bother checking whether Cruise or Joel finished high school, because I didn’t think they are relevant to the discussion. Obviously I should have checked though.

  • #643339

    bored@work
    Participant

    so now that i finished hs there is no reason for me to finish college?!?

    I mean if I want a learning husband I cant expect to take from my parents forever, rite?

  • #643340

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That’s fine anon… we all make mistakes.

    The point here is that Cruise (and Joel) are the exceptions to the rule. They can succeed without a formal education because they have a skill that is exceedingly rare and valuable. Most people (by definition) don’t have a skill that is exceedingly rare and valuable. You can’t look at the exceptions to the rule and posit them as the rule, which is what BLAHBLAH and Brooklyn19 were doing. Unless you know someone has a particular rare and valuable skill, you shouldn’t be telling them “well Billy Joel succeeded without schooling and so can you.”

    The Wolf

  • #643341

    dd
    Member

    Wolf,

    Be careful with those statistics. They don’t necessarily imply causality. Part of the difference is that more capable people CHOOSE to get more education.

    But please don’t misinterpret me as saying that education isn’t worthwhile. It’s a tragedy when a young person forgoes an education. In fact, there is tons of evidence that eduacation does increase lifetime earnings, albeit to a slightly lesser extent than those statistics suggest.

  • #643342

    Anonymous

    i hold that statistics dont affect us yidden.

  • #643343

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i hold that statistics dont affect us yidden.

    BLAHBLAH,

    I’m calling your bluff. You don’t really believe that.

    I believe that you wear seat belts in the car, which has been proven statistically to greatly improve your chances of surviving an accident.

    I believe that when you go to the doctor, you follow his/her advice, which is largely based on statistical studies.

    Saying “statistics don’t affect us yidden” is similar to saying “physics don’t affect us yidden.”

    The Wolf

  • #643344

    A neighbor sends her son to cheddar in Williamsburg where there are no secular studies. She hired a tutor who teaches this boy one-one-one, and turns out this young man (he’s about 15 now) is a genius. Unfortunately, probably 90% of his class will never find out whether they are budding geniuses as well.

    One more successful dropout – Bill Gates, but from college, not HS.

    There is something completely wrong with our “system” if we’re discouraging our sons from being educated. As I’ve told my BM age sons many times, after learning all day, college level coursework will be easy. And you know something, the boys who are doing CLEPs and TTI are acing their exams, ditto those doing college online. And that’s also why some yeshiva guys have gone straight to law school with only a BTL.

  • #643345

    brooklyn19
    Participant

    hey i agree that a normal education is necessary! but don’t go saying that it’s impossible to become a somebody without it. lol i’m in college now – if i thought i had a fighting chance without it, i highly doubt i’d take on all this work.

  • #643346

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    dd,

    You’re right that the stats don’t prove causality. But there *is* a *very* strong relationship between the two factors (income and education) and it cannot be dismissed out of hand.

    The Wolf

  • #643347

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    hey i agree that a normal education is necessary! but don’t go saying that it’s impossible to become a somebody without it. lol i’m in college now – if i thought i had a fighting chance without it, i highly doubt i’d take on all this work.

    Unless you have some rare and valuable skill, it is just as impossible as winning the lottery. IOW, it’s possible in theory, but I wouldn’t advise relying on it in practice.

    The Wolf

  • #643348

    Anonymous

    wolf

    your 1 for 2 i do wear a seatbelt but im not into the whole dr thing

  • #643349

    BLAHBLAH:

    So you don’t hold of a Rubah Dlesah Lkaman?

    You are against numerous Gemorahs that do hold of it.

  • #643350

    yossiea
    Member

    If it was good enough for the Vilna Gaon, it should be good enough for us. He wrote that there is no Torah knowledge without general knowledge because you can’t understand the Torah without knowing general knowledge. He had his talmid translate Euclid into Hebrew. He wrote that if you are deficient in general knowledge, you WILL be deficient in Torah as well.

  • #643351

    Anonymous

    pardo my ignorance but what is Rubah Dlesah Lkaman

  • #643353

    Simplisticly, it is statistical proof.

    I have (attempted) to start a new thread going into additional detail

  • #643354

    Anonymous

    thanks for your understanding

  • #643355

    Always glad to disseminate Torah.

  • #643357

    yros
    Member

    what does ruba d’lasa l’kaman mean

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