If you do not have s'micha, can you advertise yourself as "Rabbi"?

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  • #1134313

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    P.S. If the Rebbe was a Doctor of History, or Talmudic law, would your answer change?

    One has to wonder how many of such people would be serving as a first grade rebbe…

    The Wolf

    #1134314

    Joseph
    Participant

    A doctorate of Talmudical Law.

    #1134315

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Wolf, you confirmed it again. The fact that people call you “rabbi” shows just how meaningless the term is since by your own admission you are far from being one.

    #1134316

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, you confirmed it again. The fact that people call you “rabbi” shows just how meaningless the term is since by your own admission you are far from being one.

    And the fact that I protest this shows that I *do* feel the title has meaning. If I felt it was meaningless, I wouldn’t protest.

    The Wolf

    #1134317

    apushatayid
    Participant

    You and about 2% of the population. the other 98% misuse the word and it has taken on a new meaning (or as I said previously, it is meaningless).

    Like those who love the shoes they just bought, but of course love their friends and the fried chicken they ate last night. Another word used to imply one thing even though it means something else (unless of course they have a strong emotional attachment to that chicken, or really dont have much of an emotional connection to their friend).

    #1134318

    oomis
    Participant

    My son’s rebbie, many years ago, was called Rabbi So-and-So, though he definitely did not have Smicha. It is an honorific that is often conferred on someone, so that there will be a certain level of respect shown to that person.

    #1134319

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The OP clearly had a specific person in mind with this thread. He clearly has it in for this person and doesn’t fargin the honorific used for him.

    #1134321

    writersoul
    Member

    Ubiq, again you’re missing my point.

    The OP was making a specific statement- about men WITHOUT (the current equivalent of) SMICHA being called rabbi.

    Women cannot get that kind of accreditation, per Rema, because in order to do so one must be theoretically qualified for Sanhedrin, which women are not. (Among other reasons.)

    Men currently can get smicha, earning the title of rabbi. Fine by me.

    The alternative to the position mentioned by the OP is men with NO qualification (besides theoretical charisma) being called rabbi. The title of rabbi is one with significance. Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily. Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation, and one which is, indeed, unfair. If halacha says that a woman can’t do something, I can live with it. But this is entirely outside of halacha, and therefore there is no reason to consciously produce something discriminatory.

    #1134322

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Writersoul, so what do you want changed? That rebbeim/menahelin should be called Mister?

    #1134323

    apushatayid: I have no idea what you’re talking about. Is it possible you’re related to someone who may fall into that description and are getting all emotional about it? Are YOU called Rabbi in the real world and feel guilty because you know you’re not qualified for it? Go outside and sit in the snow to cool off.

    #1134324

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m back in from the snow. Let me ask you. What do you have against this person who deals with at risk girls and runs a pesach program. Whether he has semicha or not I don’t know and I don’t care. If you are soliciting people to say something negative about him let me say how very brave of you to take shots at someone in an anonymous forum. For what it’s worth I go by mister.

    #1134325

    writersoul
    Member

    DY: That when a person is called by a title, that person should be able to explain how and why that title was earned. Transparency. When the listener hears this, he/she can then decide what to think.

    #1134326

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If someone is a rebbe, maggid shiur, menahel, etc., is that considered “earned” to you?

    Also, how does that address your “fairness,” issue?

    #1134327

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So every time someo e gets an aliya in shul you will require id to justify calling him up Reb so and so?

    #1134328

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, apushatayid, and when a woman is called Mrs., she needs to carry around her edei kiddushin with her.

    #1134329

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Writer soul

    “…Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily. Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation, and one which is, indeed, unfair…”

    All three of these sentences are mistaken.

    But first lets backtrack.

    There are three categories of people reffered to as Rabbis. (of course there is overlap eg many fall in both a and b)

    a Talmidei Chachamim even without formal semicha

    b people with formal semicha even if they may not be talmidei chachamim

    c people in a posisition of “leadership” eg Grade school rebeim, kashrus mashgichim, kiruv people, motivational speakers, camp directors etc (of course some of these may be more valid than others).

    The OP doesn’t like catgeroy c.

    This is where you come in.

    You want a new innovation that women should be called “Rabbi” too (ie women in category c) The reason for this that you gave initally is to avoid “double standards “and “fairness” however neither of thsoe are real reasons.

    If all you seek is a title of respect for Women in category C. I dont get the problem, Grade school teachers are called “Morahs” motivational speaers have the tietle “Rebbetzin” (E.G. Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis) What is the problem?

    So to sum up:

    “.Women have no equivalent title which they can don so easily….”

    False Morah, and Rebbetzin bot come to mind.

    ” Allowing ANY man to use it would be an innovation,”

    False this is the way it has been for a while now (ie “Rabbis” only applying to men even when unearned in a formal sense)

    “…and one which is, indeed, unfair…”

    Perhaps True but irrelevant as has been repeatedly pointed out (why do you keep making the same mistake?)

    #1134330

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, to be fair, she has not called for any women to be called Rabbi.

    Also, although I agree with you to some extent about the title Morah, the title Rebbetzin is not used unless her husband is a Rabbi.

    #1134331

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Fair point

    Writer soul, I’m sorry if I misrepresented your position particularly this line: “You want a new innovation that women should be called “Rabbi” …”

    If that is not what you intended please skip that line the rest of my post stands though

    #1134332

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How can all three of two sentences be incorrect?

    #1134333

    writersoul
    Member

    DY: If they went through a smicha course, great. If they spent ten years in intense study in Lakewood or wherever, also great, I just wish that there was some way of saying, yes, I learned with X person, this person will attest to it and agrees to my adopting the title.

    From life and context I will say that it would be weird if a cheder rebbi was not called Rabbi, but in theory, who cares? There’s no equivalent for women, and they do fine… but as it’s the accepted thing, and hopefully those who teach have put a decent amount of work into achieving a reasonably high level of scholarship, I’d just put them to the same standards as I mentioned above- someone who will vouch.

    Ubiq:

    You make a lot of assumptions. (Yes, even after I ignore the thing about female rabbis, when I’ve made it EXCRUCIATINGLY clear that I mean the exact opposite.) One of these is that the way that things are is the way that it should be, that anyone who takes up a pulpit can achieve a title. You make the statement, unironically, that “some may be more valid than others.” That automatically insinuates that there is some value to the title of rabbi and that some people who may not deserve it are adopting it. Is this something that should be happening? What does the title of rabbi mean to you?

    See, here’s the problem- the title of rabbi implies a certain level of unconscious respect which the titles of rebbetzin and morah simply do not have. Some, like Nechama Leibowitz a”h, took the title of Morah and made it their own, and some rebbetzins have taken advantage of the title which marriage gave them to do great things. But neither of those has the same cache that the title of rabbi has- and for that reason, I at least viscerally understand what is going through the minds of women who call themselves rabbi, though I heartily disagree with what they’re doing. The title of rabbi has its own significance, both within the Jewish world and without, which lends prestige to its bearer. Women have no such title. If there is a reason for a man to bear it which he has earned, then that is understandable- and yes, it is also understandable if a woman, in theory, cannot earn it the same way. But for any man who chooses to be able to adopt it, solely because of his gender and stage charisma, that is patently ridiculous.

    RebYidd: Was wondering that myself…

    #1134334

    writersoul
    Member

    Sorry for the verbosity… I got painfully little sleep last night and it kind of shows… 🙁

    #1134335

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Writersoul, presumably, the menahel who hired a rebbe vouched for his appropriate level of scholarship for his position.

    #1134336

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Daasyochid…”presumably, the menahel who hired a rebbe vouched for his appropriate level of scholarship for his position.”

    If only that was true.

    Too many day schools and primary grade yeshivos have faculties populated by relatives of the Menahel. Many lack the appropriate level of scholarship.

    When you live out of town, you often have no choice as to which yeshiva or day school to send your youngsters. This is why we made 60 minute trips each way to take our kids to yeshiva in another city when they were in 2-5 grades.

    #1134338

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    writer soul

    “… that the way that things are is the way that it should be, that anyone who takes up a pulpit can achieve a title. …”

    I’m not sure if that is one statement or two. Absolutly a pulpit leader should be called Rabbi even without a formal test

    You ask “What does the title of rabbi mean to you?”

    Depends on the situation, I’ll go through my examples:

    For my kid’s elementary school Rebbe it is a sign of respect a kid should have towards his teacher. I don’t neeed to have the same level of respect (nor do I when my kid isn’t around) he isn’t my Rebbe, nor is he a talmid chacham nor has he received semicha. He absolutely should insist on the students calling him “Rabbi Stein” (I’m using a generic name) and I would do the same in front of my kids and even not in front of my kids as a sort of lo plug.

    Kashrus mashgichim- it is important for the workers to look to him as a Rabbi and thus should use the title when they are around

    Kiruv people and motivational speakers – it helps them gain prestige among the unlearned who they are trying to be mekarev or inspire. They are also a “Rebbe” to those they teach Torah to, so being called “Rabbi” by those they are mekarev/inspire is appropriate. Female speakers such as Rebbetzen Jungreis, Rebbetzen Fayge Twersky, Rebetzin Temima Mizrachi use similar titles. You said “But neither of those has the same cache that the title of rabbi has” Do you think that is merely a distinction based on title? However I have news for you most people view Rabbi xxxxxxx (insert your favorite non- talmid chacham non semicha bearing motivational speaker) as not much different than an equivalent Rebbetzin

    Camp directors – This one I never really got, and as a kid too always struck me as strange. MAybe they are using it the way elementry school rebbeim use it. I’m not sure I’m willing to grant that that one is weird.

    Rebyid

    Lol I guess that’s how wrong the two sentences were

    #1134339

    writersoul
    Member

    DY: I agree with CTLawyer, but either way, a menahel has a brief interview with candidates, not the years of study which a talmid chacham would have in the beis midrash of his rosh yeshiva.

    ubiq: Sorry, I wasn’t clear. “Pulpit” didn’t mean a standard pulpit rabbi. More of a “lectern, shtender, table in front of the crowd” type. You know, anyone who may speak at an event.

    Why does the qualification of rabbi come AFTER getting an actual shul position? Don’t you try to get rabbis who are already rabbis on their own merits?

    I understand where you’re going with much of what you’re saying- that because these positions are positions of power and respect, they need to be given titles which the people under them will respect. But it works the other way around as well- people who are given the title will be given more respect, whether they deserve it or not. (While certain recent events may come to mind, I’ve been making this argument since long before that particular story popped up.) The title gives the person more respect in EVERY sphere, whether the bearer deserves it or not. A person should have the title which befits his/her stature, not which will simply AID his/her stature. Nobody will call a nurse or PA “Doctor” in order to accord them more respect.

    As far as “rebbetzin”- it simply does not have the same significance. That is a fact. I understand that you disagree, but it’s true. While their two speeches may- MAY- be viewed in the same way, if someone were to hear “Rebbetzin X said that we should do Y,” there would not be the same reaction as if it were “Rabbi X said…” This is because, even if the word “rabbi” apparently no longer means anything, it still has the CONNOTATION of meaning something, which is why this is such a big deal. “Rebbetzin” has always been simply the wife of a rabbi, and therefore does not have the same significance. I see here that we disagree, though, so perhaps we should just agree to let it rest.

    #1134340

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    CTL: There are illegitimate s’michas too.

    WS, a menahel doesn’t hire a rebbe merely based on a brief interview; he does more research than that.

    #1134341

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Reverend Touro was called Reverend.

    #1134342

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Writer soul

    ” Don’t you try to get rabbis who are already rabbis on their own merits?”

    you certainly try…

    “.. The title gives the person more respect in EVERY sphere, whether the bearer deserves it or not.”

    That is true to an extent. Those more learned than a motivational speaker “Rabbi” don’t have respect for him simply because he calls himself “Rabbi” They know he is an ignoramus who may do some good through his fake “Rabbi” title.

    “A person should have the title which befits his/her stature,”

    That is a fair point, which is precisely what the OP said. This has nothing to do with men vs women.

    “Nobody will call a nurse or PA “Doctor” in order to accord them more respect.”

    This is not true at all. PA’s are often called Doctors and often even introduce themselves as Doctors. (though that doesn tmake it right, and isn’t really directly comparable to the Rabbi issue)

    “As far as “rebbetzin”- it simply does not have the same significance. That is a fact. I understand that you disagree,”

    I don’t disagree, though I don’t think that is a related to the title per se. Men and Women are not viewed as equal in our (i.e. Yeshiva/Right wing orthodoxy)

    ” if someone were to hear “Rebbetzin X said that we should do Y,” there would not be the same reaction as if it were “Rabbi X said…””

    Depends on the rabbi and Rebbetzin, for the motivational speaker- rabbi most people would have the exact same reaction to the two believe it or not

    ” I see here that we disagree, though, so perhaps we should just agree to let it rest.”

    sure.

    #1134343

    apushatayid: If you’re concerned for this person you have conjured up in your mind–as the imagined subject of my thread–congratulations, you are doing more damage than I could have done, by rehashing your dead point over and over and over. Let me reiterate: I have no idea what or who you’re talking about. You probably also think 9-11 was a hoax and are voting for Donald Trump for President. Congratulations, “Rabbi”.

    #1134344

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, now that you couldnt spread your rechilus you resort to childish name calling? Whats next, you call me a edited head and I run home crying to mommy?

    #1134345

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Reverend Touro was called Reverend.”

    so was Reverend Friedman.

    #1134346

    Avi K
    Participant

    ???? ????

    ??? ? ???? ?

    ???????? ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????,

    ??? ??????? ?????, ??? ??????? ?????, ??? ???????? ???? ?????,

    ??????? ??????? ???? ???????,

    ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ??????????, ??????? ????? ????????????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????????, ???????:

    ?????? ????????? ????????????, ???????????: “???????? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ???????????? (????? ??, ??).

    ??????? ???????? ??? ????????:

    ????? ?????? ?????? ??????????, ??????? ????? ????????????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????????,

    ??????? ?????? ????????? ???????????? –

    ????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ?????

    ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ??????????? ??????? ???? ???????!

    #1134347

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avi K – Thought of that back when. Achitofel had Smicha, and was the recognized Daas Torah of his generation (together/after Doeg, of course).

    #1134348

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Apparantly the stature of the teacher is irrelevant since the gemara makes the kal vechomer anyway.

    #1134349

    apushatayid: it amazes me how you continue to think this is about you. Or your imaginary friend. You are the only one out of this whole thread who is not focusing on the discussion. Stop it with the gayva. Stop it already.

    #1134350

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You’re all a bunch of editedheads.

    #1134351

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    APY – The stature is for being Mechabed a teacher, not calling him

    ?????? ????????? ????????????

    #1134352

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sheker. You came here looking to solicit negative comments about a person. You threw out a few clues and still nobody nibbled. You dont fargin him the title Rabbi, then so be it, call him mister or simply call him by his name. Personally, I go by the title Mister, Mr. for short.

    #1134353

    apushatayid
    Participant

    GAW. I understand that, but the gemaras kal vechomer applies to anyone. If they taught you something, then they are due some measure of kavod from you, perhaps even to be called Rabbi by you. I am not suggesting ?????? ????????? ????????????.

    #1134354

    newbee
    Member

    I like the question of calling someone WITH smicha “mr” which people do if they are not practicing. What about “Father” can you call someone who is not ordained as a priest “Father”?

    Oh, what about someone with conservative or reform smicha?

    These are very important questions in our time. Very important.

    #1134355

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW. I understand that, but the gemaras kal vechomer applies to anyone. If they taught you something, then they are due some measure of kavod from you, perhaps even to be called Rabbi by you. I am not suggesting ?????? ????????? ????????????.

    Your “perhaps” is a stretch.

    #1134356

    oyveyoyvey
    Participant

    If I may I would like to ask a simpler Q. Why do we call Anyone Rabbi?

    Think about it for 5 seconds.

    To show Respect to them Because their position or their Torah Knowledge (which in about 50% of cases earns them Smicha)

    At least to show respect for the Torah that he’s teaching.

    #1134357

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Perhaps. Perhaps not. There is more than one way to show some form of kavod to someone.

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