- This topic has 86 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
No. Rav Kotler was already great by then- it goes to show that history has often been whitewashed and chumros have entered the mainstream. Why can’t you understand that?
And the difference between Daas yehudis and Moshe is very chashuv- I’m surprised you’d shrug that off so easily. I suppose your just trying to cover up your own ignorance of Halacha, rav Broyde, and your own discomfort with how Judaism has changed.
I’m Modern Ultra Orthodox lite.
That’s incredibly myopic. So dina d’gemara goes out the window. You want a long limud zchus for a previous generation? Great! Kol Hakavod to whoever manages to do so. By daas yehudis (assuming you take such a route), you would be obligated based on where you live. If that’s what is done it is *OSUR* for you to be more lenient.
I have news for you; the mekor for being allowed to wear a shaitel (and not a scarf or other non-attached hair covering) is the Shiltei Giborim. Outside of him, no other commentator was matir. Today, plenty of poskim are matir shaitels al smach his heter – but normatively speaking, he is a daas yochid between the rishonim. He presents a kula (I have no problem with that).
Covering the hair is a *din*.It seems that in your imagination, the only rabbonim that existed before this century were Litvish. The Sefardim wore head coverings, the Teimanim wore head coverings, a fair amount of the chassidim wore head coverings. According to you, there is no such thing as gemara and all we have to do is blindly follow what we see everyone else did before.
Bug checking has always been halacha. Microscopes are generally not necessary if you know what to look for (ayin Shemiras Shabbos, Igros Moshe, etc). If we are newly aware of a new infestation or a new infestation is present, it is osur to eat without ridding it of bugs. You can chose how many lavim you want to be over for eating bugs when an item is muchzak. You would be right if you were to argue that Rav Elyashiv’s chumra re: percentages is a chumra – and it’s not a “normative” chumra either. Yes there is a din of beria, and they are noisen ta’am lifgam b’dieved, but to be mevatel dinim d’oraisa? Oy vay.
PBA: You’re being inane. Nearly all yeshiva bochurim today have beards, and he might have even had semicha by then. You’re also irrational. There is a huge difference between Daas Moshe (objective moral truth based on Torah) and Daas yehudis (halachos, minhagim, and dinnim that are constructed based on the practices of certain societies and cultures). If you don’t think this is a chashuv difference, you shouldn’t be making any statement s about this issue. Why can’t you understand this?
Son: I’m not blindly following what everyone else did. This is rav chaim Solovetchik’s point- Judaism was a mimetic tradition. That’s what a MESORAH is- not based on didactic learning but observing what your parents did, and their parents, and your community, etc. the chazon ish overturned that by making shiurim more, thereby excluding many Jews as not yotzei even though they’d drunk a certain amount or eaten matzah for generations. Ditto for the case f eating fish on Shabbos- it was done and no questions were asked until the 1800s.
You can make all the hypothetical arguments you like, but the fact is that checking for lettuce with a light-box is a RECENT INNOVATION. So are sheitles, as evidenced by photographs of chashuveh rebbitzens not wearing them. It’s a minhag tznius.
Same with hats. There’s no Halacha, just a Chumrah. The problem is when it becomes mainstream, and people are pressured to wear one.
These are fairly simple points- that Halacha can change based on historical circumstances, that Judaism has recently become more didactic, and that there is a difference between Daas Moshe and yehudis (Daas Moshe is much more authoritative).
You have clearly never met a yeshiva bochur. Almost no yeshiva bochurim have beards, and most girls are somewhat taken aback when they date one who does.
Agreed. Now (as well as then), it is (was) considered extreme Ga’avah for a Bochur to have a beard for no reason.
PBA: Have you had a chance to get the list of points from Rav Lichtenstien yet?
PBA: this picture is of rav shneur is in his 20s. At that point, many bochurim do have beards.
If you understand all this, why did you originally say it was shtus and belittle the idea by saying you don’t care about “Daas whatever?”
When did you ever think I was looking for validation? You’re projecting your own imaecurities onto me- all I did was try to prove Halacha can change dude.
You don’t care if people didn’t do it 100 years ago? Popa, that’s how a mesorah is broken. Solovetchik’s whole point is that Judaism was mimetic- that physical examples of tradition DO matter and are instrumental in continuing mensorahs.
You really have a problem with disrespect. Calling Solovetchik’s article “cute” is just rude. And the only reason I quoted it is because this is a definitive article on trends in orthodoxy and chareidi society. It was very well received at the time and is still relevant.
You haven’t quoted academic papers or books to bolster your claims, because none exist. I feel sorrier for you for ignoring history and being a mechutzaf.
BTW: this thread was a total failure. I meant to just make a funny joke, but then everyone went all ape.
doesn’t that make the thread a success, according to popa standards?
“My religion is that I follow the rabbonim of my generation”
That’s great, but mesorah is just as important. Yiddishkeit is absorbed through active participation and following good examples just as much as it’s learned from books and rabbonim.
Just like I wouldn’t call a psak by rav shteinman “cute” same here. They’re both talmidei chachamim that should be respected.
Actually Rav Sheur Kotler was born AFTER Rav Shteinman
1. He’s a rav as well. That comes first in my book.
2. I’ve been in a yeshiva environment, and am proficient in Yiddish, but i have never heard that word used. I assumed it was demeaning, my bad. And about the beards, where I’m from a lot of kollel yungeleit and even some guys in 2nd year beis midrash have beards.
3. “3. For the record, here is his Wikipedia bio. I’ll let the audience judge you.”
Cool down your rhetoric. I’m not a chassid of Chaim Solovetchik- I think he wrote one really great, seminal article on frumkeit. That doesn’t mean I’ve read his other work or even think learning history is worthwhile. You’ve made quite a few assumptions.
4. I haven’t. I don’t need to, this article is just very famous in certain circles I occasionally float in. I never said you had to talk about him in “hushed tones” (assumption alert), just not to demean the work, which I now realize was a misunderstanding based on vernacular.
“or even think learning history is worthwhile”
What happened to mesorah? It begins and ends in the last 100 years?
Although you claim so, it’s not so clear from your wording that you just wanted to ‘prove halacha can change’, they’ve been tirades against modern day psak. Nobody disagrees that certain halachos are based on the mitzyus that exists in x community at y time. That wasn’t your point – and if it was, you probably wouldn’t have so much objection.
Your began by saying, “Minhagim once done by only the pious few are now mainstream Halacha”. Then you gave examples that by and large display ignorance if you’re claiming they were once simply minhagim.
Have you learned the sugyas regarding bugs? Have you learned it l’halacha? Do you understand that the dinim, whether “paskened” by rishonim or acharonim must be followed in later generations based on what kind of mitzyus is known? Ok, so there’s a “mutar b’dieved” matzav because their nosen ta’am lifgam – but to have the audacity to claim it’s “minhag” that became “mainstream halacha” simply displays that you have a tremendous lack of knowledge in many of the areas you mentioned.
Perhaps you were just lazy in your writing, but post after post, it seems like you claimed that a whole bunch of minhagim and chumras suddenly became mainstream halacha. A chumra for one generation can absolutely be mainstream halacha for another – especially if the reality changes (i.e. fraternizing at weddings which is osur became much more of a problem in the US as weddings got bigger). Why wasn’t it a problem in Europe? You barely had more than the two *immediate* families. Grandparents – yes, MAYBE some aunts/uncles/cousins (often times not), and a few close friends. Generally speaking, there weren’t problems with fraternizing, now there are. Regardless of the mitzyus, the issue is one of basic halacha being followed.
Beards? I see your problem, I just wouldn’t be bothered by it. So the status quo in Lita was that bochurim wouldn’t have beards, now some bochurim do. I don’t think it’s a result of anything in particular. It’s true that you find more people wearing frocks than once did (newly married avreichim, and even bochurim are raised up with frocks). I don’t really understand it, but I simply wouldn’t be bothered to think too much about it; there is little to do with halacha in that realm (I say little because maybe they wear it to be in line with Hilchos Yom Tov that begodim must be better for YT than Shabbos).
Chumros becoming mainstream aren’t a problem- it’s simply a radical cultural shift that’s happened in the past hundred years, especially post-holocaust. Chareidi society is obsessed with chumros, seeing the kol korehs, bans, and cherems these days.
I don’t like your tone. Have you learned the Sugyos relating to shmiras haloshon, ahavas yisroel, and hocheach tocheach? You have an attitude I despise- one that cares about Halacha superficially, while still managing to be mean-spirited and insulting.
Mesorah doesn’t begin and end 100 years ago, that’s just the last line in the mesorah before us, so I care what used to happen.
I did sloppily use the word minhagim, However, most of the things I mentioned WERE NOT mainstream Halacha, as I proved and you acknowledged.
All I’m saying is that the romanticizing of Europe, and the claim that Halacha today is the same as it was before is inaccurate.
And by the way, when the daughter of the minchas Elazar married rav Baruch Rabinowitz, it was attended by thousands and televised. You can find the video online!
What is referred to as chareidi is the following of the Mesorah closest to Har Sinai.
dells – Joe still hasn’t run out of letter combinations. He will eventually.
Technically you can’t run out of random letter combinations as they’d form an infinite series…
Technically you can’t run out of random letter combinations as they’d form an infinite series…
He has a tendency to only use five letters (of course, next time he wont because I said something).
gedolim without beards:
Rabbi Benzion Rafael haKohen Frizzi
Rabbi Yitzchak Shmuel Reggio
Rabbi Moshe ben Gershom of Chefetz
“gedolim without beards”
Also Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein.
“So I just need to know the bottom line.”
If all you needed to know was the bottom line, there would be no reason to learn gemara.
“Don’t compare a history professor in a university to Rav Shteinman.”
To simply call him a “history professor” is degrading a major talmid chacham. He may be the single greatest living authority on the history of halachah. That he didn’t decide to become a rosh yeshiva or a posek has nothing to do with the validity of his writing, which is legendary for its throroughness.
“What is referred to as chareidi is the following of the Mesorah closest to Har Sinai.”
That is ridiculous. At Har Sinai we had none of the rabbinic mitzvot yet. How many charedim carry on Shabat without an eruv?
Charliehall, that is the kind of small thinking I’m arguing with. In every generation, rabbanim have had to be creative to solve current problems. There was no mesorah about electricity on Shabbos, the state of Israel (for good or bad), and a host of other contemporary issues . Halacha leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Of course it’s all grounded in a system but even so its pretty remarkable.
My questions were legitimate. If you did not learn them (even on a superficial level), you cannot sensibly claim that it is simply a chumra. I do not claim to have learned any of them b’iyun, but the roshei prokim make it very clear that it’s not as simple as, “Yeah, we just became more machmir because of those darned Chareidim.”
I sat on a bus today only to have someone stand up and move to the front of the bus after giving me a horridly dirty look for sitting beside him. So he didn’t wear a kippa, and perhaps he didn’t know better. You, however, speak of Ahavas Yisroel yet place blame of if I can paraphrase you, illogical chumras, on an entire section of frum Judaism – throwing what at the very least translates into a level of hatred that should be unacceptable. It’s perfectly fine to have shittos, and aderaba – you should be convinced what you’re doing is right or that at the very least that you are going in the right direction.
“Chareidi society is obsessed with chumros, seeing the kol korehs, bans, and cherems these days.”
The very sentence before your concerns of Ahavas Yisroel relays what very defined tones run in your wording. I’m not sure what kind of Chareidi society you are familiar with. The society I am a part of doesn’t regard any of those as anywhere close to central.
You cannot just look at the last 100 years, though those generations are the easiest to relate to. Tracking and understanding halacha, nusach, or even/especially the gemara is dependent on digging further back and understand not just the outcome, but also the cause for change. If I’m not mistaken R’ Akiva is the one who says that Yisroel is compared to a bird; just like a bird is useless without its wings, we are useless without the zekeinim. That’s not just of our generation, that’s of previous generations going all the way back.
I’m not sure what your point was with the Minchas Elozor’s daughter. Perhaps the main reason that it is such a noted event is because of how unusually large the wedding was and the special border conditions granted in order that people be able to attend the wedding; it was far from standard. Once it became normative to have a few hundred in a wedding hall and fraternizing became an issue, only then did things start changing.
Ok, so there’s a “mutar b’dieved” matzav because their nosen ta’am lifgam
Mehechi Tesi? Have you tried one?
Slimy, yet satisfying
Pumbaa, the Warthog
gaw: I have to find it but there is either a Shach or a Rema that explicitly says so in beria.
gaw: I have to find it but there is either a Shach or a Rema that explicitly says so in beria.
Mechi Tesi. Also, Nishtah Hataam. The Rema would have never thought guinea pig or Fried Tarantula would be a delicacy. Or Gagh for that matter.
GAW – Even with 5-letter combos that`s still 11,881,376 possibile combinations (26 to the power 5), should take Joseph a while.
GAW – Even with 5-letter combos that`s still 11,881,376 possibile combinations (26 to the power 5), should take Joseph a while.
But he is getting close, and he cant use certain combinations that include 4 letter words, such as w and an o and a r and a k.
I never said its because of “darned chareidim-” I’m just noting a religious trend that you refuse to believe exists.
I’m not sure why you told the buss story, but I’m sorry that happened to you today. Ahavas yisroel does not mean I have to accept every chumra and psak as correct- it means I have to respect people. I attack ideas with ideas, which is completely mutar and encouraged as part of milchamta d’torah -something folks around here could learn from, based on all the ad hominems going around.
The part of chareidi society I know from is the one that I greatly respect for their commitment to Torah and halachah, but also have some issues with in terms of rigidity, isolation from the world and disregard of secular studies. I’ve been stared at in certain places for wearing a blue shirt, even with a hat and enough Yiddish to fit in! There are shortcomings in every community- that’s just life. What makes the difference to Hashem is whether we acknowledge the bad parts and change, or ignore them. Chumros aren’t bad, but there is a culture around them of elitism and exclusion of dissidents.
And you should look at the last 100 years, because Judaism is mimetic- based down from parent to child, so I look at how recently it was practiced- not how it was many years ago because the experiential mesorah is only from those that are alive.
gaw: Im yirtzei Hashem I’ll get to looking for it in the next week. It’s not stuff I have at the tips of my fingers by any means, so I have to find the time to actually sort it out; bear with me.
PS. Fried tarantula. Yum.
…Ok maybe not
gaw: Im yirtzei Hashem I’ll get to looking for it in the next week. It’s not stuff I have at the tips of my fingers by any means, so I have to find the time to actually sort it out; bear with me.
Looking forward.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.