Listening To Non-Live Music On Sefira

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  • #602918

    Adam885710
    Participant

    Can I listen to non-live music during sefira?

    It is difficult for me to exercise when not listening to music so I would like to know if I could listen to music while exercising.

    Also, please do your best to make this objective. I’m really not interested in hearing your own opinion on this issue. An halachic answer would be best. Thank you!

    #1151842

    sam4321
    Participant

    I just saw in Piskei Halacha(pg 106) of Rav Belsky(new sefer put out) that listening to music during a workout on sefira is permitted because the music is to make the workout more effective and not for enjoyment.

    #1151843

    twinkleSTAR
    Member

    Hi Adam885710

    I think u should ask ur Rav in regards to listening to music in the sefira, but I know that there is Jewish Akapella music, Like A.K.A Pella, that should be fine…

    #1151844

    Sam2
    Participant

    Different Minhagim. Almost everyone (maybe even everyone) agrees that if it’s for exercise it’s fine.

    See the Sh’arim Metzuyanim B’halachah on the Siman on Zecher L’churban for Mekoros on this, if I recall correctly.

    #1151845

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Why look for a psak at the CR when b”h we have rabonim? If it’s going to be daas hediot, the safest answer is that exercising to music is virtually dancing and that both shouldn’t be done on sefira.

    #1151846

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    If the alternative is not exercising then it is probably assur not to listen.

    Side point: you say “it is difficult”. Many things in life are difficult. Lifum tzara agra. Hashem put us on this world to pass nisyonos. So just because something is difficult shouldn’t be a reason to go “looking for a heter”. Kol kula tzricha bdika. Take a step back and think about it before jumping to heterim.

    When it comes to this particular question of music during sefira / 3 weeks in general (not for exercise), this always bothers me. I enjoy music, but I won’t die without it. I realize that chazal instituted a period of aveilus and it should be taken seriously. Think about the “spirit of the law”, rather than “the letter of the law”. It is probably better to listen to a slow, hertzidig D’veikus song then some of the acapela nowadays. I think the best thing is to listen to those type of songs without music or with only acapella music.

    Of course, if you are lisheim shamayim and you really feel that you can’t exercise as well as you should without it, then by all means, find a heter. (Also, if you feel you need it to keep you awake while driving then of course you should listen to music)

    #1151847

    Chacham
    Participant

    According to The shibolei leket 8: 127, Oz nidberu 8:58, And the Tzitz Eliezer 15:33, Ashrei Ha’ish (hilchos sefira), Halichos Shlomo there is no chiluk between acapella and regular recorded music.

    #1151848

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    During the war people were moiser nefesh themselves for Yiddishkeit. They never compromised one iota . How low have we stooped that we need to ask shailos on this topic.

    #1151849

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: You left out the Igros Moshe and the Shevet Haleive as well (I don’t know the Simanim offhand, but the IG”M might be O.C. 1:157).

    However, there is a difference between the Shevet Haleivi’s Shittah and the others (well, I’m not familiar with the Ashrei Ha’ish so I can’t say anything on that). Those other Poskim all hold that there is a qualitative difference between a capella and instrumental music. They just happen to hold that both are Assur during Sefira. (Of course, both the TZ”E and the IG”M hold that as an outcome of the fact that they hold instrumental music is Assur all year round, so you need to raise it a level for Sefirah. If your Minhag is to not Assur music during the year, then it would make sense that a capella is allowed during Sefirah.) The Shevet Haleivi, on the other hand, holds that a capella should be Muttar during Sefirah, but he holds that any a capella made professionally should be treated like instrumental music.

    #1151850

    Chacham
    Participant

    sam2-Thank you for the additional mareh mekomos. I believe we had a few threads on this last year and during the three weeks. If I remember correctly the tzitz eliezer is mattir music all year round (unlike the igros moshe).

    see http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14514&st=&pgnum=89&hilite=

    #1151851

    Yosi7
    Member

    In the new sefer piske halacho following the psak of rav belsy shlita he says theres not differents between instrumental and accopella music.

    #1151852

    Josh31
    Participant

    “were moiser nefesh themselves for Yiddishkeit”

    There is a time and place for mesiras nefesh.

    For the needs of someone sick and not in danger, categories of Rabbinic enactments are permitted. And these are Rabbinic enactments associated with the Biblical Shabbos.

    In the laws of mourning there is generally more of a basis to be lenient.

    If you push people to always be moser nefesh, they will be “burnt out” when the real need to avoid the “Big 3” arises.

    If I were a Rabbi and anyone came to me with a question about music, my first question would be, “Do you have mood swings, or have you ever been diagnosed with Depression?”

    #1151853

    Patri
    Member

    ” If you push people to always be moser nefesh, they will be “burnt out” when the real need to avoid the “Big 3″ arises.”

    Is really all the Torah is to you?

    #1151854

    “If I were a Rabbi and anyone came to me with a question about music, my first question would be, “Do you have mood swings, or have you ever been diagnosed with Depression?”

    & Why do you say that?

    #1151855

    Josh31
    Participant

    Is really all the Torah is to you?

    Generally the Torah way of life even with restrictions is with Simcha. Shabbos and Yom Tov become part of life and are not viewed as mesiras nefesh, but actually joyful times.

    Those who say “it is hard to be a yid”, discourage their kids from keeping Torah and Mitzvos.

    When one comes to a Rabbi with a problem about the restrictions on music during the Sefira or 3 weeks, there is usually some deep reason he or she needs the music. In the present day mood disorder problems are very common.

    #1151856

    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: I’m not sure how you’re reading the Tzitz Eliezer. He clearly Assurs music all year in Os Beis.

    #1151857

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Do you feel it there would be more merit for you by doing your workout without any music?

    I would think, and I may be wrong, listening to music while working out is an enhanced form of enjoyment, because not only is there the usual enjoyment of the song, but you are absorbing the music to the point of a physically motivational benefit.

    In other words, you are more absorbed in the song than the typical passive listening.

    It is possible to work out without music and concentrate on your movements and breathing, and get through it fine.

    #1151858

    Chacham
    Participant

    sam2 in ois 1 he talks about the rama. in ois 2 he quotes daas haosrim.

    #1151861

    Flatbush Guy
    Member

    I also heard once from Rabbi Belsky that it is forbidden to listen to music, even not live music, during sefirah.

    #1151862

    far east
    Member

    The way i look at it…you have to pick your battles. If you dont listen to music at all during sefirah, then good for you. If you do listen, maybe you shouldnt but only you know yourself and how you can handle it.

    And yes if your a depressed person or have some sort of mental illness and you find listening to music helps.. then of course you can listen to music during sefirah

    #1151863

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Google acapella article by Rav Belsky and Rav Miller for more info.

    #1151864

    pcoz
    Member

    reb shlomo zalman z”l said you can listen to hergesh music during the sefirah, a friend of mine asked him about this as he was surprised at the heter, his response was “mah, eli tziyon lo sharim be’tishah be’av?”

    #1151865

    Chacham
    Participant

    pcoz

    I know there is a difference of a Kli shir than stam singing. The aruch hashulchan 493:4 nogea sefira ????? ????? ?????, ?? ?? ???????? ???????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???. ??? ????? ????? ????, ??? ?????? ??????, ????? ??? ??????? ???????.

    All the poskim say that any recoreded music is no less than a kli shir.

    #1151866

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    The heter-hunting in this thread isn’t pas. A heter is needed so that you don’t have to walk out of a public place if someone turns on music. But what respect is being given to halacha, minhag, and Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim z”l when we look for heters so that we can enjoy ourselves, exercise, etc.?

    #1151867

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: There is a big difference between enjoyment and exercise. Enjoyment is what the Minhag is to avoid. Exercise I think is B’feirush in the Poskim that it’s Muttar to listen to music to help you exercise (I’ll look for specific Mareh Mekomos if you want me to though).

    #1151868

    Adam885710
    Participant

    Sam2-Thank you for your gr8 posts throughout this thread. I would also really appreciate if you can post the specific Mareh Mekomos so I can learn the halachos thoroughly.Thanks

    #1151869

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Sam2, we’re supposed to avoid dancing. Modern exercise accompanied by music is so close to dancing that only a dance expert could tell the two apart. I realize that there are many, many heters surrounding sefira and music but they shouldn’t be collected and flipped around like rebbe cards (and rebbe cards shouldn’t, either).

    #1151870

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to most posters (including loyal jew)- before you talk about “heter hunting”, can you explain to me where the issur comes from? the period of mourning of sefira is not in the gemoro and the geonim -who instituted the minhag- had certain parameters :”no marriage and no hair(or beard) cutting. Even the fact of live music (“Rikudim umecholos”) is a late poskim addition. Why add to it ?? people get into a twist for any music, a chumro that is not in the spirit of the original minhag. “hovu delo lossif olov”

    #1151871

    Josh31
    Participant

    Loyal Jew, you are taking the original “slight mourning” and practically want to ban exercise that is too similar to dancing.

    Wow! This is too much for the entire Jewish nation.

    But the more spiritually attuned can always do more than just “slight” mourning. Tikkun Chatzos is a time honored practice for the more motivated.

    #1151872

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: I don’t know what Rebbe cards are, but the fact is that dance for the sake of dancing and enjoyment is very difference than dancing for the sake of exercise. I could hear if you would claim that jazzercise-type things are Assur during Sefirah (zumba, taebo, etc.). I would probably be uncomfortable saying that’s Muttar, especially if the person has other exercise options. But there should be no reason whatsoever a person can’t have his music on to help him jog or bike or anything like that.

    #1151873

    Sam2
    Participant

    See the Pri Megadim A.A. on O.C. 551:2. That is the basic Makor for our Minhag not to listen to music. See the Sh’arim Metzuyanim B’halacha on the Kitzur 122:2 (with the Kuntros Acharon) and 126.

    The Beis Yosef in O.C. 560 discusses the Halachah about music all year round. The Minhag almost everywhere is to be Meikil for “Shiros V’Sishbachos” (560:3). The Beis Yosef also mentions that to be Mezarez Bim’lachah or to remove depression is okay. The Poskim bring those two ideas down in several places.

    See the Tzitz Eliezer quoted above (15:33) and the Igros Moshe that he quotes (I think O.C. 1:166 or so). But, as I said above, those two base their Issur of a capella for Sefirah off of the idea that you don’t listen to any music all year round. I didn’t see the Igros today, but I don’t think either of them mentioned the issue of being M’zarez Bim’lacha either way. Still, since neither explicitly disagrees with the Beis Yosef there is no reason to assume that they do.

    Chacham: From the way the TZ”E Paskened like R’ Moshe for Sefirah I got the feeling that Os 1 was a Limud Z’chus.

    #1151874

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Dear sam2: if your post is addressed to me- you have just proven what I said. The original minhag only encompassed marriage and hair(beard)cuts. Anything else came way afterwards. (The pri megadim is late eighteenth century). Even as we accept some of these late chumros) why add to it and ban music altogether? After all- there is a quantitative difference between “rikudim umecholos’ that imply live music and live music players and today’s new technology of CD’s and records. Are we going to ban singing too? After all, what is worse, live singing or recorded music?

    The Question of live music all year round has been debated for many years and the general attitude is to be “meikel”.

    #1151875

    Sam2
    Participant

    Berlin: I was providing the Mekoros I was asked for earlier. The contemporary Poskim all say that this Minhag against dancing includes listening to recorded music (R’ Moshe, TZ”E, Shevet Haleivi, and others, and the common Minhag seems to be like that). Rav Moshe and the TZ”E both do say that even singing is Assur during this time. The Minhag, at least from as far as I’ve seen (and I asked around a lot after I saw those T’shuvos), is to not hold like that, possibly because of the reason I mentioned above.

    #1151876

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    dear sam2- the question still stands, even after quoting the Poskim that you mentioned. Why is recorded music “assur” ? Why add to the already harsh minhagim of sefirah (originally it was only for marriages). And forgive me, but to say that ‘even singing’ is assur then is so far removed from reality and something that the “zibbur “einon jecholim laamod bo”. Isn’t there s halacha (there is….) that, in aveilus, “holchim acharei hameikil’?And, by the way, in some yeshivos, they did allow recorded music and in other yeshivos, they even allowed to shave every erev shabbos….so, there are plenty of meikilim….

    #1151877

    Josh31
    Participant

    “The heter-hunting in this thread isn’t pas.”

    Correct, after listening to music one does not have to bench.

    “A heter is needed so that you don’t have to walk out of a public place if someone turns on music.”

    Wrong, there are always earplugs.

    #1151878

    Chacham
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin- recorded music is a kli shir. Why? because the same you are not yotzei tekias shofar with a recording. Basically you are not hearing the voice. Al carchach you are hearing a kli of some sort. And kli shir is assur.

    Kli shir

    The aruch hashulchan 493:4 nogea sefira ????? ????? ?????, ?? ?? ???????? ???????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???. ??? ????? ????? ????, ??? ?????? ??????, ????? ??? ??????? ???????.

    All the following poskim all say that recoreded music is no less than a kli shir.

    Igros Moshe OC 1:166,3:87, MInchas Yitzchok 1:111, Yechave da’as 3:30, and Igros moshe Yoreh deah 2:137 assures a kli shir even when in the house and is not gorem simchah. (look in the Minchas yitzchok who says minhag tov kneder vassur lifrotz geder).

    The Magen avraham 558:1 , and the mishna berura 558:2 also mentions kli shir. Also the pri megadim (aishel avraham) 558:10 talks about the issur of a kli negina ( not in a case of rikud) and so does the Derech hachaim in hilchos bein hamtzarim sif 1 , The biur halacha 551:2 dh ummatim, shu”t chaim sheal siman 21, maharam shik yd 268 butchacher sof siman 552 and the shevet halevi 2:57 8:127. and in haaros from rav elyashiv on gittin daf 7. kovetz halachos bein hamtzarim perek 4 etc. so i think it is a generally accepted halacha.

    how is that?

    #1151879

    Sam2
    Participant

    Berlin: The Poskim never mention music because it is very recent that people can constantly have music in their homes. It’s a logical application (not extension) of the Minhag.

    #1151880

    if it brings you enjoyment then you should stay away the point of not listening is becasue we are in a certain state of aveilus.

    #1151881

    cherrybim
    Participant

    While Rav Moshe holds that music is assur all the time, except for Mitzva; he matirs it if we need it to calm our nerves. This same heter may apply during s’fira. Live singing without the aid of a mike may be mutir since there is no kli to enhance the sound into music.

    When did the prohibition of cutting the hair of the head get the inclusion of beard hair?

    #1151882

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    to chacham and sam2 and others : all what you are proving in your quotes is that this is a modern addition to the minhag. simple question: why don’t we pasken (as we do) that, in aveilus (real aveilus….) “holchim achar hameikil”.

    Just because you are bringing me a slew of late acharonim that emphasize this new issur doesn’t answer the question.

    “Kli shir” (or kli neginah) means exactly that- an actual instrument. Is radio or CD’s an actual instrument? No.

    “Hatokea betoch habor” (echo) is not “jotzei’. why should we say that a recording- through electronic waves- is kli shir?

    #1151883

    Sam2
    Participant

    Berlin: An echo by Shofar is not Yotzei because you are not hearing directly from a Shofar. It’s still a musical instrument. One wouldn’t be allowed to play a horn in a cave on Shabbos or Yom Tov. You’re missing the point that this Minhag to Asser it is late only because until recently everyone assumed it was Assur all year round anyway. To be Holeich Achar Hameikil here you would first need a legitimate opinion Lehakel.

    #1151884

    Chacham
    Participant

    Belin- You think every halacha that has no straight out source in the rishonin is a Chumra? What happened, you think the 16 achronim invented this by themselves? No. pshat is like Reb sam2 said. There was a gezeira from yemos harishonim not to get married. The shayala was can you make a seudas eirusin. Zugt the Magen avraham, YEs you can make a seudas Eirusin. But be careful to be extra makpid on Rikudim but you want a kli shir, noooo no that is too much of a pirtza. So say all the achronim OK it is then a huge Kal Vchomer that stam Not ltzorech mitzvah Rikud or kli shir is assur gamur or as reb moshe says more assur than it is the rest of the year.

    And who is this Mekeilim that we go after? I don’t think there is a source for the mekeilim. You found somebody meikil?

    It is a kashya on them. To have a BERLIN style attitude I will say why can you detract things from a halacha without a source?

    And if a tape is a kli shir? c’mon can’t figure that out? KLI SHIR- a thing that makes music. End of story

    #1151885

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I do believe a tape is a kli shir.

    There is a gezeira all year round against listening to music or singing. What the parameters of that gezeira are, is debatable, but klal yisroel seems to have picked the minimalist approach, even though it is not consistent with the way we would normally pasken.

    Rabbiofberlin correctly points out that there is no basis for a new ban on music. Because it is already assur, and whatever applies the whole year, applies during sefira too. New issurim, we don’t make. So wherever and whenever music is mutar during the year, it is mutar during sefira too.

    While others may not agree with this view, it is what my rav holds and how I am noheg.

    #1151886

    Chacham
    Participant

    Reb Yitayningwut- The above mentioned acharonim simply state that there is an additional issur for a kli neginah included in the aveilus of sefirah.

    yes it is indeed assur all year round, but on sefira there is an additional stringency.

    Why would they say something that something assur is assur. I guess it is like the poskim who assur smoking all yeaR and also discuss whether it is muttar on yom tov. Different Dinim.

    Besides the Magen avraham is actually talking about by a seudas Eirusin which during the year there is no issur.

    And kemiduma li we already discussed this once http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/music-in-the-9-days

    #1151887

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Why would they say something that something assur is assur. I guess it is like the poskim who assur smoking all yeaR and also discuss whether it is muttar on yom tov. Different Dinim.

    That makes no sense. There’s no need for an extra stringency when it adds nothing to the original issur.

    There is no makor that there is an extra gezeira on music in sefira than the rest of the year. Even the Magen Avraham is only giving a limitation on se’udos reshus – saying not to have dancing at these parties.

    If you want to find issurim you’ll find them. But bederech klal if something is not mentioned in the rishonim and no one even talks about it until pretty recently and doesn’t have any clear rayos, you don’t have much of a tayna on someone who dismisses it.

    #1151888

    147
    Participant

    Music restrictions are suspended for Yom ha’Atzma’ut:- Would this suspension this year apply to the Mukdom date of Thursday Iyyor 4th? or the biZemano date of Friday Iyyor 5th?

    #1151889

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Neither, since it’s a false heter.

    #1151890

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: It’s not a false Heter. It makes perfect sense to say that restrictions of Sefira are eased if you say Hallel. Not doing so could be a bit of a Stirah.

    147: It only makes sense to ease the restrictions on the day you say Hallel.

    #1151891

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think I’ll say Hallel next Tuesday and then I get to listen to music.

    If I say a brachah (l’vatalah) on it, do I get two days?

    If I say Hallel on Tisha B’av, do I get to eat?

    #1151892

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Depends why you say Hallel. Don’t pretend that those who say Hallel don’t have what to rely on.

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