Nationalism 🇮🇱

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  • #1267597
    simcha613
    Participant

    Why is the concept of Jewish nationalism such a controversial topic? I have heard some say it’s not a Jewish concept but I dont understand why. The Torah is clear that we are a distinct nation and that Eretz Yisroel is the land for our nation. That sounds like nationalism to me. Obviously, we hold that the Torah is the only thing that is absolutely necessary to our national identity but that doesn’t seem to be to the exclusion of everything else. Again, the Torah itself tells us that our nation belongs in our national Homeland. Is that not nationalism?

    #1267790
    Joseph
    Participant

    A wave of nationalism broke out in Europe in the years prior to WWI. (The end result was that after the war some countries, i.e. Hungary, Austria, were broken up into nation-states, i.e. Czechoslovakia, etc.

    It was in this pre-war period that the Jewish Nationalists, i.e. Zionists, hopped unto that nationalism bandwagon breaking out to seek and later demand their own nationalism.

    When Uganda didn’t work out they moved on to Palestine.

    #1267789
    akuperma
    Participant

    The word “sovereign” means “above all kings.” Orthodox Jews, at least some of them, hold that Ha-Shem is our “sovereign”, not a medinah. If you are a nationalist, it means you hold that your state is number one, that it is not bound by any laws other than those of its own legislature. Almost by definition, a nationalist is holding that Ha-Shem’s laws are not supreme, since if they were, the state would not be “sovereign.” Zionism, the Jewish nationalist movement, by definition rejects that idea (thus the zionist sing that now they are a people free of Ha-Shem’s laws, the infamous עם חופשי verse in the zionist anthem).

    P.S. And even if you hold Ha-Shem gave Eretz Yisrael to the Jewish people, according to our traditions it was a conditional gift to allow us to do mitsvos, and wouldn’t cover a secular state whose whole raison d’etre is doing averios.

    #1267801
    Avi K
    Participant

    Simcha, as a matter of fact, the Chatam Sofer says (Sukka 36a) that all work in EY, especially agricultural, is part of the mitzva of building the Land and pushes off talmud Torah (he asks rhetorically if a man would refrain from putting on tefillin in order to continue learning).

    According to Rambam (at the end of Hilchot Melachim) we will concentrate on learning and the other nations will do the work. All will have knowledge of Hashem and want to do His will. This seems like a pluralistic nationalism (note that Rambam uses the word “nations” which seems to imply that there will still be various nations) whereby each nation maintains its separateness in its own land and thus contributes to the world according to its unique characteristics. We will be the lawgivers and (while not all agree the Rema says in Tesuva 10 that their obligation in dinim is to adopt all of Choshen Mishpat).

    #1267832
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Jewish nationalism as practiced by the Zionists was not formed because of “Yisroel, Torah, Kidshe Brich Hu, chad hu” but rather so that the Jews could be like all other nations-just like the Germans, Russians, etc have a country and a culture and a language and an army, so too the the Jews. Kind of like the reason behind Bnei Yisroel asking Shmuel for a king, and why he got angry. Note, however, that Hashem granted their wish then, and granted the Zionists their wish as well. Just like malchus shaul, after some ups and downs, eventually gave way to the true malchus of beis David, so too may this interim Jewish government give way to the true malchus of Mashiach.

    #1288337
    kitov
    Participant

    Yup I don’t like Zionism either but I would say this the Jews have an obligation to gather in groups even in galus times and fight the gentile enemy like it says in the megillah “lamod al nafshayhem.
    Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

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