Suppose that the person's alleged financial fraud was specifically that he took bribes in return for certifying non-kosher food as kosher. Would we still be obligated to accept his kashrut certification (even after secular conviction) until a beit din can rule?
YWN Coffee Room » Bais Medrash
Questions on Yoreh Deah, Choshen Mishpat
(97 posts)-
Posted 1 year ago #
-
"You asked what would the din be if you (bear) smacked a calf and knocked it out to then do shechita.
There is a treifus issue here with regard to being attacked by a carnivore. Also since it was knocked by something big. I did not learn treifus."
This is what I love about Torah that the world will never understand. The Torah gave us the tools to figure out the halacha in any situation that can ever possibly happen ever. Ever. Ev.Er.
If the frai saw how there is nothing in the world that is not governed by the Torah they would do teshuvah in a minute.
On a side note maybe you (popa) and you (bear) should get together and write up some purim Torah after Av.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ok. If we had proper witnesses that he certified non-kosher food as treif, I think that would be similar to the shochet or butcher who sells trief meat as kosher.
The halacha of the shochet is that even after one time he is pasul leidus and also not trusted to sell meat. To so teshuva, he must wear black, go to a different city where they do not know him, and show us his resolve by saying and animal is treif even at significant loss, or returning a found object at significant loss. (CM 34)Additionally, the mechaber says in YD 1:14, that if even ONE witness says that a shochet is selling treif, although in most cases this witness is not believed, we would need to weigh the reputation of the witness and shochet and in some cases we would pasul the shochet.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Popa,
is it a problem to cook milk in one pot and meat in a second pot next to each other on the stove?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I will present my question. This question is very applicable in many different ways.
Someone books an appointment at a doctor (or any professional for that case). He either gets busy or finds someone better or cheaper and simply doesn’t show up. The doctor now has one appointment less for that day and couldn’t accept other patients for that time (ultimately losing their business). Same question applies with a freelance worker. Booked him and then cancels him in the last minute.Does he owe him anything? If yes, how much?
What is if he does find a last-minute job for less pay?Posted 1 year ago # -
Good.jew:
Regarding cooking milk and meat on the same stove-top and in close proximity
See Shach 118:36 One should not do so lest a drop splash from one pot and hit the other pot. However if one did so one does not have to be concerned that drops splashed unless you know that they did. If both pots were covered it would not be a problem at all.
However see Taz 118:12 allows cooking in close proximity.Popa's personal advice- this is a very bad idea. If one drop were to splash from one pot onto the outside of the other pot in many cases the food would be assur and in very many cases the food would be assur.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Dave Hirch:
I'm sorry; that is beyond the scope my syllabus.Posted 1 year ago # -
Lol. I was thinking to make it even tougher. Look in Shulchan Aruch 333;2, Taz and Sma. Also see Ktzos (316;1), Teshuvas HaRashba (1;987).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Regarding water after fish (I am new here and didn't notice a response, See Moed Katan 11a Rashi and Tosfos. The R' Akiva Eiger is in the Chidushei RA"E on Y"D 116:5, also see Oruch Hashulchon 116:10, Kaf Hachayim O"C 170 ois 79, brought also in the Kessef Mishneh Hil. Deios 4:18, also see Shorim Hamtzuonim bHalacha 33:2, (taken from the Sefer Shmiras haGuf v'haNefesh 1:19).
Posted 1 year ago # -
In your response to good.jew I think you meant to write in the first warning that the "pot" would become Ossur.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Regarding my earlier post, what would you say if one pot had meat, and one had pareve?
Posted 1 year ago # -
goodjew: THAT is an excellent question.
Assuming we hold like shach in 118:36You may cook meat or milk next to pareve. Even if it were to splash, it would not create even potential issur.
If you did it and it splashed:
If it fell on the outside opposite the liquid, even if you would then cook milk in the pot, even within 24 hours, even if there is not 60 times the splatter in the milk, it would not be assur because we assume there is only a small amount of the meat in the walls of the pot. (taz 92:24)
If it fell above the water line and you then cooked milk in it, you would need 60 against the splash.One could argue, if you always use the pot in a way that it will be batul in 60, you can use it after 24 hours even for milk and certainly for pareve to eat with milk.(99:7 see taz 15). However, I think it will be kovea tashmisho as meat (see shach 94:15). If you sometimes use the pot in a way that is not batul in 60, you should definitely consider the pot meat.
However, if the other pot is a milchig pot, even if you are cooking pareve, you should not do so because it could create issur in your pot.
tzair: thank you, I meant to write the pot would become assur. I was dictating the post on the phone right before shabbos.
abba bar dad bar popa: I'm again sorry, despite my bold name for this thread, I only learned the subjects listed in my first post. In choshen mishpat, that is only eidus and dayanim.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Help! I can't find a heter to learn on tisha b'av!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Mazel Tov. We passed. I'm going on vacation.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Mazel Tov!
Vacation?! Come on, we're counting on having REALLY knowledgeable Rabbonim!Posted 1 year ago # -
popa, I don't know if you stopped taking questions now that you passed, but hopefully not, and hopefully you are even better able to answer now than before.
What do you think of the practice mentioned in CM to charge family members interest, as a way to teach them of its "bite" nowadays?
For example, I have a family member who is paying credit card debt (which is a terrible waste of money). I want to pay off the debt on their behalf - but without letting them skip out on the lesson of the pitfalls of financial indiscretion. I think one way to do this would be to hold them to a punishing payback schedule so they can see what it would cost to pay for their mistakes (and as a side point- I plan on gifting the extra money back when they manage to finish paying).
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am happy to take questions, although I am not able to give the same amount of time to answering them, as I was before. (YWN coffee room habit notwithstanding.)
As far as your question, I like the question, and I have no idea what the answer is. I didn't learn ribbis.
Let us know if you get an answer.Posted 1 year ago # -
Squeak:
That's a real doozey!!
Regular credit card interest is not like the ordinary Ribis, because the interest involved is only conditional. Only if the funds are not returned by a certain date, is a surcharge imposed. This payment is more like a fine than Ribis. For you to arbitrarily "fine" your relative in order to teach a "lesson", you are creating an established interest fee.So, unless you have a really detailed and codified Heter Iska, you're a usurer.
Another factor to consider is this: In general anything ostentatious, even if the arrangement had existed prior to the loan, may not be performed by the borrower for the lender. Your relative can't buy you a fancy Shalach Manos basket to you, because it can halachically be considered interest. You can't borrow his car either, because it can be considered like he is forced to treat you this way due to the loan.
Ribbis is ribbis regardless whether or not you were joking around or teaching a lesson. There are other ways of teaching responsibility that don't violate ribbis laws. Interest is not something to play around with.
Posted 1 year ago # -
artchill, have a look inside and you will see the provision that one may charge close family members interest to teach them of its bite (I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but that's roughly it).
popa, I will be asking, and I will add the answer to the list of other things I have promised to get back to the CR ppl about.
Posted 1 year ago # -
squeak;
I can look until i'm blue in the face, and still won't find it.
Interest is called NESHECH because of the 'bite' it takes out of the one who must pay the interest. Therefore, since all of klal yisroel is one big family, we treat them as family and not business associates. This is why a Jew can lend a non-Jew with interest, but NOT a Jew. Certainly, a family member is called a relative.
The ONLY way around it is with a Heter Iska, that was written BEFORE YOU EXTENDED THE LOAN. If you forgot to write one, it's too late. You don't teach people a lesson by acting like a usurer.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Why when an eid contradicts a baal din does the eid not become a "chaticha deisurah" to the baal din and become pasul legabey the baal din in another case? (if A claims from B that B owes him money through a loan, and C says it never happened, and later C wants to testify to help A against D, then C should be pasul w/ regards to A and A shouldn't be able to use him)?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Squeak-
No no no no....please, have a look inside!
One may NOT lend his children interest in order to them a lesson.
Bava Metziah 75a - Rav has such a hava minah, and the Gemara rejects it, because it will teach his children to lend with interest, realizing how much can be made (Rashi).Yorah Deah 160,8 forbids it based on this Gemara, even if his ultimate intention is return the money to them as a gift (see the Taz).
Posted 1 year ago # -
I've explained kavua and kol deporush from statistics. In statistics there's also such a concept. Kavua means that you're interested in determining if an instance occurred or not. So the statistical treatment is that this instance either did occur or did not occur. That's yes or no, in other words kol kevua k'mechtza al mechtza al mechtza, yes or no. In kol d'porush we have an instance that comes out of a population of many, for example teisha chanuyos. Which of the 10 stores did it come from. So we say that it came from the roiv. Why, because in a population of many we statistically decide that it came from one of the total population. The chance in a population of 10 that it came from any is 1 in 10. So in halacho we say that it came from the roiv.
Posted 1 year ago # -
artchill..... chill. You seem to be unaware of the point I am bringing up.
Moq, thanks for the reference. The point you make is valid, and the problem of chinuch bonim is what I recall from when I was learning the halachos (and google brought up R' Reisman's sefer which explicitly mentions this also). The situation here has no chinuch application (since the family member is not my child and not a minor).
I am only interested in whether this is right/wrong in halacha considering all the issues. I am not looking for any personal gain here. As I said before, I will be asking formally. I see the answer going one of three potential ways:
1- Assur
2- Muttar, but not something to do (for whatever reason)
3- Muttar, and a good idea to use in practise.1&2 are the same to me, even though there is an academic difference (which of course I would be interested in).
Posted 1 year ago # -
squeak:
...........1
and that's my final answer without phoning a friend!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ah, I see.
"For example, I have a family member who is paying credit card debt (which is a terrible waste of money). I want to pay off the debt on their behalf - but without letting them skip out on the lesson of the pitfalls of financial indiscretion. I think one way to do this would be to hold them to a punishing payback schedule so they can see what it would cost to pay for their mistakes (and as a side point- I plan on gifting the extra money back when they manage to finish paying)."
I'm sorry, I answered too quickly. You may certainly make them pay the actual credit card debt with it's accrued to date interest, as this is the sum you put out. But you wish to cut - and I understand why.
But if you're not speaking of a minor and you're speaking of a family member that you are not fiscally responsible for, then I believe Rav hava mina would not apply - they would be like any other person, as the chazakah that you are not makpid on them does not apply, as they are not reliant on you. The Gemara explicitly says "Banav U'Bney Beso" - aka, though who are reliantly upon him. Since their needs are essentially his, any fiscal transaction between are pretense. The Gemara, still forbids this based on chinuch.
But you speak of an adult who is not reliant on you. The Gemara wouldn't apply.
I believe that it would be Ribbis D'Orayasah (as it would be ketzutzah) then, which regardless of your intentions would be ossur. Which is forbidden even if the borrower says that the ribbis is a gift. Due to the fact that in your case the borrower is a totally separate financial entity. There is no chazakah in your case ( assuming this person is not financially reliant on you).
I would suggest signing a heter iska with a merciless "profit" rate. What you do in the future would be irrelevant. they are relatively simple and straightforward (but make sure you and your - well, victim- fully understand it's terms for it to be halachicly & legally valid- Rabbi Reisman has a few english versions in the end of his sefer).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ruvain wants to call Shimon to Din Torah, but in to order to insure that he gets his choice of Bais Din, he sends shimon a summons to ערכאות knowing Shimon will call him to Din Torah for going to ערכאות which makes him the Nitva giving him the right to choose the Bais Din.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So this "deal" might come through after all? Ask already, squeak, we're waiting with bated breath!! (Our next payment is due really soon!!)
Posted 1 year ago # -
SBH: Why does he have a choice of Beis Din? EITHER party can demand ZABLAH.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The issue is the choice of a בית דין קבוע
This was aked of Horav Mendel Shafran at a Q&A in Stolin BHM in BP
His answer. He has accomplished nothing, Bais Din will admonish him for going to ערכאות. Case closed. Now he is back at square 1 with the original case.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm starting to feel as if my intelligence is being insulted. Of course I am talking about someone who is financially reliant on me, otherwise I wouldn't brought up the question. I hadn't considered the chinuch aspect, but fortunately it is not the case here. To sum up, an adult family member who is reliant on me financially but not for chinuch.
Thanks for all the opinions. I have asked and received my answer, but I'm afraid that I will be reneging on my promise to post it here.
Posted 1 year ago # -
but I'm afraid that I will be reneging on my promise to post it here.
Perhaps you should be matir neder again, the day before yom hadin.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Squeak - I am not insulting you. Perhap you have an irresponsible nephew, brother, - a relative who is not your child - who is deep in credit card debt, and you wanted to lend them the money to pay it off? Why is that obvious? You seem to be a generous sort. Anyway, I apologize. I was just trying to understand your shaala. Then the Gemara would apply; as far as chinuch - the Bris Yehudah writes at the end of Perek 2 that it would seem that for an adult (fiscally reliant) it would be permissible, and leaves with a tsarcih iyun. I suppose his safek is that still, you are teaching negatives habits to another Jew, regardless of your chinuch obligation them, and that is the point of chazal.
After you are matir neder, please tell us your psak.
Posted 1 year ago # -
To put this into context, in Moed Katan 11a, Tosfos say that Nishtane Bateva - the nature and constitution of people and plants have changed throughout the course of history; hence, the remedies that were effective in Talmudic times are not necessarily effective today. This explains why they felt it is no longer a sakana to eat fresh fish (back then, foods had to be preserved due to obvious reasons, and the text of the Gemara is clear that the fish then were salted, "MEICHLEI BI'VREI," referring to salty fish brine, etc.) Tosfos saw no sakana in eating fresh fish, while they did feel it was a sakana to drink water after eating fish. Like Tosfos, Rebbi Akiva Eiger believes that it is a sakana to drink water immediately after eating fish, as do the Aruch HaShulchan and the Kaf HaChaim (170:79). She'arim Metzuyanim B'halachah 33:2 suggests that for this reason whiskey - and not water - is customarily drunk between fish and meat, explaining the Chassidic minhag to drink schnapps after fish. The Shla is brought down in Darkei Teshuvah 116:31, who implies that one should drink a beverage after fish, but not water; there is of course the inyan to take a drink between fish and meat, and due to this sakana, the practice seemed to be to drink schnapps after fish, probably because wine was too expensive. The practice is mentioned in Shaar HaTziyun 174:46. The Tur (Yoreh Deah 116) mentions that his father (the Rosh) would wash his hands and eat bread that was soaked in wine in between eating fish and meat. he purpose of eating the soaked bread is to clear one’s mouth of the taste of fish before eating the meat or vice versa. Perhaps the reason why one cannot drink water or any other water-based drink like soda or reconstituted juice is that only a strong beverage like alcohol can "kill" the taam of fish in one's mouth. Rebbi Akiva Eiger holds like Tosfos that on many things, the science of Chszal was faulty vis-a-vis such medical beliefs, and rules that one should ignore these Talmudic texts because one cannot fully understand them and will consequently misconstrue them and cause more harm than good. However, since he holds one should avoid water after eating fish there must be a significant reason for this practice.
Posted 1 year ago # -
To add, there is a question of what beverage is like water. While R' Yirmiyahu Kaganoff holds that soda and reconstituted juice would have the same din as water, since these drinks are mostly water, interestingly, the Chut Shuni Shabbos 4:page 399 holds that soda is not like water in this instance, but tea and coffee are. Interestingly, the Satmar Rav (as brought in the Sefer Eidis B'Yosef) wouldn't drink water with meals, but would drink either slivovitz or soda. Those who hold that you need to wash between fish and meat (albeit no need to remove chatzitzos, etc.), should wash after the schnapps, since the yud and shin of the name of Shakay (name of Hashem) is represented by the name of whiskey in Hebrew which is yayin saref, and the Daled of Shakay is represented by the daled of fish (dagim). In order not to separate the name of Hashem one should drink the whiskey immediately after the fish, according to the Darchei Chaim V’Shalom 396. The minhag of the Divrei Yoel I mentioned is based on the Rambam's eitzah in Hilchos Deos, 4:2, not to drink anything other than a small amount of water mixed with wine throughout the seudah, and even upon digestion, one shouldn't drink plain water. R' Dovid Meisels recalls that in Chassidishe kehillos, they wouldn't drink anything until after the meat.
R' Doniel Sayani
Posted 1 year ago # -
Popa,
I had a open (but corked) bottle of non-mevushal wine in my fridge and my cleaning lady cleaned the fridge. She touched/moved everything. Can I drink it?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm sorry. I don't know.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So the wine had been open but you put a cork on it and the cleaning lady moved the bottle around with a cork on it.
If a nochri grabbed hold of an open bottle of wine and swirled it, even if he or she did not lift the bottle nor touch the wine – the wine is forbidden. (SA YD 124:17) According to the Ramah, however, because of various mitigating factors - if there is a significant loss involved, one may be lenient – even if the wine bottled was lifted and shaken or stirred.
If the nochri held a closed bottle whether it was either full or partially full, the bottle is permitted. The reason is that this is not the manner of pouring a libation. If the nochri held an open bottle and lifted it but did not swirl the contents around, the wine is still permitted. If the nochri merely touched the open bottle this is certainly permitted.
However, the issur extends even to leaving an unsealed bottle of wine with a nochri.If your cleaning lady merely touched the bottle or lifted it, it seems as if this would be permitted. If she swirled the contents around, etc., it would be assur. (This is the shita of R' Yair Hoffman).
The Rosh to Shabbos 17b says that while the wine owned by a Ger Toshav (a Nochri who accepts the seven Mitzvos of Benei Noach in front of Beis Din) cannot be consumed by a Jew, wine owned by a Jew that was merely touched by a Ger Toshav is permitted. This implies that the reasoning why wine touched by a Nochri is forbidden is only because of the concern of Avodah Zarah, and not because of intermingling (for the reason of intermingling should also prohibit drinking wine touched by a Ger Toshav). This is the shitas HaRashah to Avodah Zarah 29b.
It seems that if there is hefsed merubeh, there might be room for leniency, according to the Ramah. Chances are your clesning lady is not a ger toshav, and therefore wine touched by her would not be allowed.
Posted 1 year ago # -
rebdoniel: here is worse. Since he presumably was not watching her clean the fridge, we do not know what she may have done to the bottle. She may have uncorked it and actually poured it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Since we are unsure if she swirled, poured, etc., it would be best than to not use it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
We have to err in the side of caution under such circumstances
Posted 1 year ago # -
שלו' וברכה להאי צורב
ר' דניא' נ''יThis is from Orach Chaim but since you have the resources please do a search on the topic at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/some-basic-halacha-that-is-ignored-in-100-of-shuls-by-99-of-the-kahal
Posted 1 year ago # -
שלו' וברכה להאי צורב
ר' פפא נ''יSorry ID crisis ! But if you are so inclined you too are invited.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Sorry, I took no position in that thread, and I will not be doing so in this thread either. I have not learned those sugyos well enough.
But someone called my brother on Friday that he had put his milchig lid onto his fleishig pot on friday afternoon.
Since the lid was not ben yomo, and not dirty, and did not have a peaked top, it was certainly muttar on erev shabbos. shach 93:4.
If you exchange pot lids, you should always ask a shaila.Posted 1 year ago # -
Popa,
I just started yadin yadin myself and my course did not cover this in depth, but perhaps you have some insight? What are the sources for kim li? Is there a rationale for it (I have my own ideas, but I would like to see any systematic treatment of the issue).Thanks!
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm sorry. We didn't cover that.
But I'm happy to entertain a dayan shetaa question.Posted 1 year ago # -
RSRH: the rationale for kim li is המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה
Posted 5 months ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
RSS