The requirement for everyone to give Tochachah

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  • #615732

    Joseph
    Participant

    Everyone is obligated per halacha to give tochacha when necessary.

    The requirements to give Tochachah are:

    1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)

    2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.

    3) You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.

    It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/stop-minding-your-own-buisness

    #1145223

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    4) You need to make sure that something wrong is actually taking place. Either if it is assur or even if muttar the perosn addressed should be on a “higher level” and the mussar is applicable

    Actually this should probably be before #1. sinc if this isnt met then it doesnt meet the “when necessary” clause

    #1145224

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Ubiquitin

    According to your rationale how do you explain the wedding takonos from 15 years ago?

    There was nothing technically wrong with extravagant weddings, yet the rabbonim attempted to give mussar to the tzibur and reign in spending, and they did this to the klal, even though many were clearly not on the level (as can be seen by the blatant disregard of the rules)?

    #1145225

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    when necessary

    a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you

    Please define necessary and reasonable?

    but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah

    Does point 1) still apply in this case?

    #1145226

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Mentsch1

    “According to your rationale how do you explain the wedding takonos from 15 years ago?”

    Easy!!!

    1) The takanos where for the community that the Rabbanim presided over. They were printed in Jewish observer and Yated not Jewish Action.

    This is my main point. So dont get too caught up on number 2 please

    2) They werent really Takanos. They were an “out” for those who couldnt keep up with the “Jonses” OR “Shwartzes” to say “We arent making a fancy wedding because of the takanos” I was at more than one wedding in which it seemed that the takonos had been used as lehachis a guide to make the Wedding as fancy as possible by violating EVERY takanah with several of the signatories in attendance.

    3) The takonos weren’t really about mussar it was about not putting pressure on others to comform

    #1145227

    simcha613
    Participant

    mentsch- It could be argued that the wedding takanos were for the purposes of the people who couldn’t afford as much and felt inferior. It wasn’t to force people to higher level than they were ready for, it was to help those who couldn’t afford much.

    And, many communities did not adopt wedding takanos possibly for that reasons, that it’s not beneficial to force people to a higher level of tzidkus than they are ready for.

    #1145228

    apushatayid
    Participant

    takkana = tochacha?!!???!

    #1145229

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I never give Tochacha.

    The times I did so in the past have been disastrous and I always felt terrible about it afterwards.

    No one listens to me anyway.

    I don’t hold myself to be better than anyone that I’m worthy to give Tochacah.

    I don’t reach out to people to be friendly – so I’m going to reach out to them to rebuke them?

    I find it difficult to correct people on matters where I’m 100% that I’m right and involve no question of moral standing; so I’m certainly going to find it all the more difficult to correct people in areas where I am not 100% certain of my correctness and that involve a moral standing.

    Yeah, I know you’re going to tell me that I’m doing wrong. Go ahead…

    The Wolf

    #1145230

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Simcha613

    It could be argued

    but since there was no exclusion clause for the very wealthy, it would be a wrong argument

    Ubiquitin

    The pressure to conform comes from those setting the high standards. Which of course places the blame on them for setting those standards in the first place.

    Hence, my example from Rabbi Frand on the other thread

    #1145231

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    mentch1

    There was an exclusion clause for the very wealthy! (which is part of what lead me to my #2 above, exactly like simcha613)

    I dont remeber the exact lashon but it was somehting along the lines of:

    We the undersigned will not attend a simcha that does not adhere to the above takonos barring a family memebr or pressing circumstances

    “The pressure to conform comes from those setting the high standards. “

    absolutely false! The pressure to conform comes from WITHIN! granted there are external factors but that isnt the ikkar.

    #1145232

    newbee
    Member

    someone named phil just gave me tochacha for giving other people tochacha, saying in his tochachic remark that giving tochacha is not allowed unless you are a Rabbi. So this can get rather confusing.

    phil: “you are not a Rav or a Manhig and have no right whatsoever to criticize others…..”

    #1145233

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Mencth1

    I found the exact nusach:

    “We the rabbinical signatories- barring familial obligations – and unusual and extraordinary circumstances – will not participate in or attend a wedding celebration that disregards these guidelines”

    #1145234

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram in MD,

    when necessary

    .

    a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you

    .

    Please define necessary

    When someone does an aveira.

    and reasonable?

    There’s a chance the person will heed your tochacha. Even if the odds are against him heeding you.

    but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah

    .

    Does point 1) still apply in this case?

    In this case it is talking about where you already gave the tochacha. (So you are already past point 1.)

    #1145235

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Of course, “unusual and extraordinary circumstances” probably means the baal simchah is a donor to the shul/yeshiva of the Rav.

    #1145236

    Joseph
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    No one listens to me anyway.

    If that were true, you shouldn’t give tochacha. But you are underrating yourself.

    I don’t hold myself to be better than anyone that I’m worthy to give Tochacah.

    You’re obligated to give tochacha even if you think yourself less worthy than the wrongdoer. (Given the aforementioned conditions.)

    Obviously this is discussing where you’re sure the action(s) was an aveira. And you’re doing it for the right reasons, i.e. to correct the wrongdoer out of your love for your fellow Jew. In the absence of those conditions and intentions, one shouldn’t be giving tochacha.

    #1145237

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Damoshew

    It is vague enough to mean whatever you want, which effectivly takes away any “bite” the takanos may have had.

    Which of course begs the question as to what the point is/was?

    This is where Simcha 613 correctly points out:” the wedding takanos were for the purposes of the people who couldn’t afford as much and felt inferior. It wasn’t to force people to higher level than they were ready for, it was to help those who couldn’t afford much.” Or as I put it: “They werent really Takanos. They were an “out” for those who couldnt keep up with the “Jonses” OR “Shwartzes” to say “We arent making a fancy wedding because of the takanos””

    #1145238

    cherrybim
    Participant

    It would be a z’chus for me to receive tochacha from a tzadik. I’m ready Joseph when you are.

    #1145239

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Ubiqutin

    I will grant you the point

    you may be right

    But, in theory everyone with “extrodinary circumstances” should be required to get a psak on it, which I’m guessing didn’t happen

    And wolf

    out of everything said on the subject

    Yours was the best said

    #1145240

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    When someone does an aveira.

    [Addressed to WolfishMusings] Obviously this is discussing where you’re sure the action(s) was an aveira. And you’re doing it for the right reasons, i.e. to correct the wrongdoer out of your love for your fellow Jew. In the absence of those conditions and intentions, one shouldn’t be giving tochacha.

    I agree with all of these points.

    In this case it is talking about where you already gave the tochacha. (So you are already past point 1.)

    To clarify the question I have: suppose you know (somehow) that if you give Shimon tochacha privately and compassionately, there is a 70% chance that he will listen to you, but a 0% chance he would listen to you if done embarrassingly in public. So you give him tochacha privately, and this happens to be one of those 3 times in 10 where he doesn’t listen. Do you then go for the public embarrassment, even though you know that it won’t help anything?

    #1145241

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram,

    The reason one doesn’t give tochacha if there’s no chance the person will correct their behavior, is because if he won’t correct it anyway then by not giving tochacha he may be a shogeg rather than a meizid if you tell him he is committing a wrongdoing. (But if there’s a chance, even less than likely, he’ll correct himself then we do give him the tochahca even if the risk is more likely he’ll become a meizid.)

    Given that, in your example it would seem one should still give him public tochacha (after the private tochacha failed) since at that point he is certainly a meizid even without further tochacha.

    That being said, I could hear a reasonable argument the other way (against my point) to not give it publicly in your example if it truly was absolutely certain it would not help (i.e. not even a 1% chance). But I think my point is far more compelling because of a) what the reason for not giving tochacha is and b) the seforim doesn’t specify an exception to not giving the public tochacha once the private tochacha failed (whereas the seforim do specify the exception to the private tochacha in the aforementioned condition) and c) even if there’s no chance of him correcting himself, it may still be appropriate to embarrass a public intentional wrongdoer who refuses to correct his behavior after having been privately advised. (I offhand seem to recall point c explicitly being cited in seforim.)

    #1145242

    Regarding public tochacha. The CC in Klal 4 numer 31 writes that if the Avera is not known to people then the person giving the private Tochecha needs to be a ??? ???? or you can show him in a sefer that it is clearly Assur. However if you just tell him by yourself and he does not listen to you, you should not publicly ????? him, rather you should tell ????? ?????? and only after not listening to them you should go ahead and publicly ????? him.

    #1145243

    newbee
    Member

    Wolf: “The times I did so in the past have been disastrous and I always felt terrible about it afterwards.”

    You should not let your emotions prevent you from doing a mitzvah.

    “No one listens to me anyway.”

    This is the yeztaer hara talking! Someone once gave me tochacha, and I acted like I could care less at the time (I was 16). But it effected me deep down and played a crucial role in my further development.

    “I don’t hold myself to be better than anyone that I’m worthy to give Tochacah.”

    This is the yezter hara talking! Shaul was also exceedingly humble, until he was so humble he did not listen to Hashem when he had to be strict and tough. And we all know how his story ended.

    “I don’t reach out to people to be friendly – so I’m going to reach out to them to rebuke them?”

    Thats horrible, you should be friendly as well. Push with your left hand and bring in with your right hand.

    #1145244

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    You said “could care less”. You now have about 100 new enemies.

    #1145245

    newbee
    Member

    RebYidd23: I dont get it. Can you elaborate.

    #1145246

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If you can care less, you do care somewhat.

    #1145247

    newbee
    Member

    You got me, though I couldn’t care less.

    #1145248

    too many of us today are too scared t o approach someone-in a nice manner of course-& give them tochacha to help them improve their mistakes. lest the person bear a grudge on him or stop liking him etc….

    the business I used to be in involved people doing serious sins that heimesh & frum people should be aware of but weren’t. when I saw it happening I approached them nicely & spoke straight & to the point what the halacha is, without being afraid they might not want to hire me again. CAUSE STANDING UP FOR HASHEM COMES FIRST

    #1145250

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Just don’t come off holier than thou, if you find yourself eager to give tochacha your probably the wrong person to do so.

    #1145251

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most (Not All, but most) people who give Tochacha are not giving it to defend the torah, but rather out of their own need to put down others and lord over others. They get some sort of thrill by doing it.

    And because most are doing it for the wrong reason, it hinders those who are doing it for the right reason

    #1145252

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mods: Who deleted my post? I was quoting a Gemara.

    Please make it clearer. IT comes across as needlessly insulting.

    #1145253

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    This is the yeztaer hara talking!

    No, it’s common sense that no one listens to me. Your anecdote is not evidence to the contrary.

    This is the yezter hara talking! Shaul was also exceedingly humble, until he was so humble he did not listen to Hashem when he had to be strict and tough. And we all know how his story ended.

    So what are you saying? That I’m going to end up attempting (or committing) suicide to prevent myself from falling into the hands of the Phillistines? That would probably make the world a better place anyway…

    Thats horrible, you should be friendly as well.

    Yeah, that’s me. Horrible for being an introvert. Horrible for being uncomfortable around people in many circumstances (especially large crowds). Horrible for minding my own business rather than burdening other people with my presence beyond what is necessary.

    Thanks for the words of encouragement.

    The Wolf

    #1145254

    Sam2
    Participant

    Everyone should just say back “remove the wood beam from your brain” (extrapolation of a Gemara).

    #1145255

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, why respond with a wisecrack instead of being mekabel mussar from wherever it comes?

    #1145256

    newbee
    Member

    The Wolf: “Thanks for the words of encouragement.”

    You are welcome!

    #1145257

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Wolf: “Thanks for the words of encouragement.”

    You are welcome!

    I didn’t think I really needed to use quotes around the word “encouragement.” I guess I was wrong.

    The Wolf

    #1145258

    newbee
    Member

    “I didn’t think I really needed to use quotes around the word “encouragement.” I guess I was wrong.”

    I didn’t think I really needed to use quotes around the word “thank you”. I guess I was wrong.

    -The Newbee

    I didn’t think you would be so offended because I said its horrible that you are not friendly. Now I know for next time. I thought friendly meant being nice if someone says have a nice day or approaches you, apposed to being the apex of sociability.

    #1145259

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hi, I think you’re horrible.

    Why are you offended? I didn’t think you would be so offended because I said you’re horrible.

    #1145260

    newbee
    Member

    I never said “I think you’re horrible.” to anyone, maybe you need glasses.

    #1145261

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    And so you’ve advanced to mocking disabilities.

    #1145262

    newbee
    Member

    “funny”

    #1145263

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    You give tochacha or any other advise if someone will likely accept it and if your tactful enough to do it right and not have it backfire.

    This applies to comments made in other situations as well, like paying a Shiva call. People say the dumbest things sometimes or deal with things on a level they are not qualified to do.

    For example: I was at a Shiva house, for someone I’m close with. who lost a child. This guy, relatively young who had Smicha, was drawing out every emotion he could thinking he was helping the father deal with it. He didn’t know when to stop, so we had to force him to quit. This guy once saw a Godol in a similar situation and thought wrongly that he could do the same thing.

    #1145264

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “respectful”

    #1145265

    newbee
    Member

    rebyid, go ahead, take the last word….

    #1145266

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The last word.

    #1145267

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    See, here’s an example I noticed today:

    During the week, I daven in a shul that davens nusach Sefard. There is a fellow who sits in front of me who (as I do) davens nusach Ashkenaz. When the chazzan finishes Chazaras HaShatz, he sits down to say Tachanun and he is seated and saying Tachanun when the Tzibbur is reciting the thirteen Middos.

    I’m pretty sure (but not absolutely sure — see later) that the thirteen Middos are similar to Barchu, Kedusha, etc. where, even if it’s not your nusach, if the tzibbur is saying it, you should say it with them. So, even if he’s not going to recite vidduy, he *should* at least be standing when the tzibbur recites the Middos and say it with them.

    However, I will not correct him. First of all, as I said, I believe that I’m correct, but I’m not certain of it. I’m not going to correct someone for something where I, myself, am not certain of the answer.

    Second, I don’t know the person. It’s one thing if I were to go over to a friend who knows I have his best interests at heart and where I know s/he will take it in the spirit intended. Here, however, I don’t know this person. While I wouldn’t mind a perfect stranger coming up to me and (in a nice and civil tone) informing me of a mistake I’m making, I know that not everyone is similarly disposed to random criticism from strangers.

    Third, I have neither the spiritual courage nor the fortitude to approach a stranger regarding corrections. Yeah, I know some of you will say that’s a cop-out, but, nonetheless, that’s the reality.

    The Wolf

    #1145268

    The little I know
    Participant

    The mitzvah of tochacha is contingent on the result. This is clearly stated in Mesilas Yeshorim Perek 20, and it appears in the Rambam also (don’t know the citation). The MY states clearly that if the result will backfire, the mitzvah is to say nothing. This is another area where someone might look to be machmir-meikil simultaneously.

    Food for thought: Eliyahu Hanavi dealt with a situation in which he gave tochacha lavishly, and he was chased and hounded by Izevel trying to kill him. He ran away, and ended up on Har Chorev (aka Har Sinai), where he hid in a cave. HKB”H appeared to him and showed him massive fire and booming thunderous sounds. The message was, “Lo bo’aish Hashem, Lo bora’ash Hashem” After that, there was a “kol demomoh dakoh”, a whispering tone, containing the presence of Hashem. Nice message. Each time, Eliyahu Hanavi continued his complaint to rationalize his tochacha and the dire consequence it caused. The next statement by HKB”H was that Eliyahu return to Eretz Yisroel, and choose his successor, Elisha. The leadership, that ended up in Eliyahu becoming a kano’i, using the tool of tochacha, was inconsistent with his role as a leader.

    There are many issues that comprise the formula of tochacha. Some can give it, others not. Some can receive it, others not. How, when, and where to give it are also factors. If we spent as much time on this subject, relevant to everyone daily, as we do on the halachos of other matters, we might have more to be proud of in the midos department.

    #1145269

    newbee
    Member

    I would personally be embarrassed if I was doing something publicly wrong in shule day after day, and would wish for someone to correct me or at least approach me and offer advise maybe I should do it differently (i.e. ask it to him as a question). Not to mention I also want to keep halacha, and assume other people who go to shule do as well.

    #1145270

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I would personally be embarrassed

    That’s you. That may not be everyone.

    In any event, it doesn’t invalidate any of the reasons I gave. I still don’t know that I’m correct, I don’t know how he’ll take it and I, personally, am a coward.

    The Wolf

    #1145273

    Joseph
    Participant

    Regarding general online comments versus giving individual private rebuke… giving tochacha needs diplomacy – “V’ohavtoh l’raiachoh komochoh”, then – “v’lo sisoh olov chait”.

    Macho’oh, on the other hand, works differently. That applies to something like Chillul Hashem (i.e. saying an aveira is not an aveira or someone publicly committing an aveira, etc.), where it is not done for the sake of the individual, but for the sake of Kovod Shomayim, where dealing coolly, or even appearing as such, only intensifies the Chillul Hashem as it demonstrates a lack of empathy for Hashem’s Kovod and Kovod HaTorah.

    #1145274

    Avi K
    Participant

    Wolf, regarding the 13 middot, he has on whom to rely (Tefilla k’Hilchata ch. 4 footnote 26 in the name of Rav Eliashiv being that today everybody knows that there are different minhagim). As for tochacha in general, the Chofetz Chaim said that it is related to hochacha – you have to prove to him that he is wrong. That is easier said than done. People always have rationalizations and excuses.

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