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1. shlishi
   Joseph

   This is for Goldenpupik et al, per the OT conversation on the other thread HERE.

   Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20): And thus our Sages have commanded that the woman honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king. She should orient her activities according to that which he desires and stay away from that which he hates. This is the manner of the daughters of Israel and the children of Israel who are holy and pure in their marriages. In this way the community will be pleasant and praiseworthy.

   Menoras Hame’or (2:176): Even though the woman is the mate of the man – she should not view her husband as an equal but rather as her master as it says in Tehilim (45:12), Because he is your master and you should bow down to him. And the woman should love her husband and he rules over her as it says (Bereishis 3:16), And your desire shall be to your husband and he shall rule over you. And if you view him as your master he will love you and you will be in his eyes as a sister as we see that Sarah refered to Avraham as master (Bereishis 18:12) and if you minimize talking to what is necessary then you will be even more beloved to your husband. And if you speak before him with grace and humility and if your eyes are attentive to him in the manner that a servant is attentive to her mistress – then you will be greatly valued and honored in his eyes. It relates in a Medrash that a certain Sage told his daughter when she was being taken her husband’s house, “My daughter, stand before him as you would before the king and serve him. And if you should act as a mother to him, he will be to you as a servant and will honor you as a privileged lady. However if you dominate him, he will be forced to act as your master and then you will be degraded in his eyes like a common servant. Embellish and praise him amongst his friends. And if guests come to him, whether relatives or friends – welcome them graciously and offer them generously in order to honor you husband in their eyes. Take good care of his house and all that he has and in this way you will find favor in his eyes and you will be the crown of your husband. Thus it says in Misheli(12:4), A virtuous wife is a crown to her husband.

   Posted 10 months ago #

2. shlishi
   Joseph

   Torah Temima (Devarim 24:1.3): If she gives him something and she says I am betrothed to you because of what I gave you - then it is not a valid marriage (Kiddushin 4b). Rashi explains that she says to him “You are sanctified to me.” But Tosfos questions this since the language of kedusha doesn’t apply to a man since marriage doesn’t prohibit him to other women [See Kiddushin (2b), What is the connotation of the term kiddushin? It means that she is prohibited to the whole world like hekdash.] Therefore Tosfos explains that it means that she says to him, “I am sanctified to you.” However in my opinion the language of “kidashto” does not indicate that she is saying,” I am sanctified to you.” If it did mean that then the gemora should have said that she sanctified herself to him. But in general it is not clear where you learn that a woman can sanctify herself to him - since it is well known in many places in the Torah that in marriage the husband is the acquirer or purchaser! It would appear according to Kiddushin (9a), “How is a woman married through a document? The husband writes to the father, Your daughter is sanctified to me – then it is a valid marriage.” Thus we see explicitly that even though in commercial documents the seller writes, I am selling you my field, but here the husband is writing, Your daughter is sanctified to me - and the father doesn’t write, My daughter is sanctified to you. That is because in commercial documents the seller writes that he is selling his property because the Torah makes everything dependent on the seller. In contrast concerning marriage, it says, When a man will take a wife and thus the Torah makes marriage dependent on the husband.”

   Thus it is clear from this gemora that if the Torah hadn’t stated “when a man will take” the Torah would be understood and logic would support this - that in truth a woman could betroth herself to her husband because it would be equivalent to her selling herself to him – as it states, “And he will rule over you” and well as Tehilim (45), “Because he is your master...” In fact the Rashbam (Bava Basra 48b) explicitly writes that the betrothal of a woman is equivalent to the case of the seller selling himself to the purchaser. [see my explanation in ohs 6]. The normal way of acquisition is that the seller indicates what rights he is transferring to the seller. However since the Torah added in the case of marriage, “When a man acquire a wife” - the husband is the one who has to be described as acquiring rather than the seller writing that he is selling his rights to the purchaser. This point is the intent of the gemora before us. That if the wife says she is giving her rights to herself to him and she says that he now possesses the rights to her in the normal manner of commerce where the seller says to the purchaser, Go and establish possession – the marriage isn’t valid. Since the Torah states, “when he will acquire a wife,” that makes the validity of marriage totally dependent on his taking the initiative in what he says and his act of acquisition.

   Posted 10 months ago #

3. yitayningwut
   I have no idea wut this screen name means. Do YOU know what this screen name means?

   It would be nice if you'd also mention the Rambam in the Halacha just prior to the one you quoted:

   וכן צוו חכמים שיהא אדם מכבד את אשתו יותר מגופו ואוהבה כגופו. ואם יש לו ממון מרבה בטובתה כפי הממון. ולא יטיל עליה אימה יתירה ויהיה דבורו עמה בנחת ולא יהיה עצב ולא רוגז.

   And the Sages also commanded that a person honor his wife more than himself, and love her like himself. And if he has a lot of money, he must add in her favor according to the money. And he should not place upon her excessive fear, and his words with her should be with patience; he shouldn't act depressed or angry.

   Posted 10 months ago #

4. The little I know
   Member

   Shlishi:

   Your post was rather irritating to me. I assume you provided accurate translations of the Rambam and the Menoras Hamaor. I could, if I chose, supplment your post with several more references that sound much as these do. The part about your selections is that the context is sorely lacking. I call this a serious, intentional error of omission, which is more in line with aggression, albeit passive.

   Missing here is the other side of the story - the obligations a man has to his wife. Let's try a basic one on for size: אוהבה כגופו ומכבדה יותר מגופו. The respect and affection from a huband to the wife are expected to be substantial. It is in the context of this that the words of the Rambam and the Menoras Hamaor ring not just true and accurate, but applicable. One cannot demand any of the subjugating aspects of marriage of a wife who is treated like garbage. A relationship that contains no trust will NOT permit any of this. The husband that demands this is a tyrant, and deserves the absence of respect he has earned. I do not justify anyone committing acts of disrespect. But I cannot fault a victim or recipient of such treatment by the other spouse for failing or falling short in their respect of the abusive spouse.

   I hope that other commenters will ring in with the quotes that describe the Torah demanded environment of the marital relationship where there is mutual respect, love, affection, and the togetherness that lends meaning to the posuk of והיו לבשר אחד.

   Posted 10 months ago #

5. shlishi
   Joseph

   Rav Tzadok (Dover Tzedek page 41): Berachos (17a) asks, What is the merit that women have – to achieve the World to Come? [Concerning the pshat see Sotah 21a.] The reason that this is a question is that women don’t have a mechanism for self-perfection as men do with Torah study. The gemora replies that their merit comes from assisting their husband and children in learning Torah... In other words their perfection is not acquired directly but only through their husbands and children. The husband is oblgated to provide her food, clothing and relations while the son is obligated to honor her and fear her as is said in Kesubos (64a), A woman asks for a staff in her hand (son to support her) while alive and a spade for her burial. In other words her faults and imperfections are completed by the actions of others. Thus she draws perfection from them and her defining nature is being controlled or taken care of by others.

   That is why the Torah says your husband “will control you.” In contrast the woman is described in Kiddushin (30b), That she is in the domain of others and she has no control or any power and that is why whatever she acquires is automatically acquired by her husband. In fact the only genuine power she has is that her husband is obligated to her in order that he provide what she lacks and this is also true for the son as we mentioned before.

   Posted 10 months ago #

6. shlishi
   Joseph

   Pnei Yehoshua (Berachos 17a): Greater is the promise that Hashem made to women then to men... Rav asked R’ Chiya, “How do women merit getting the World to Come? By making their children go to shul...” It would seem that there is problem here. What was Rav’s original problem that cause him to ask, “Why do women merit the World to Come? Isn’t it obvious since they are commanded to observe all the negative commandments like men as well as all positive commandments which are not time bound – so why was it necessary to answer that it is because they take their children to shul to read...? Furthermore it seems Rav not only asked the question but he also answered it the gemora doesn’t say that R’ Chiya replied to Rav that it was because they take their children to shul. It would also seem reasonable that the opening statement of “Greater is the promise” was also said by Rav himself since this was something he frequently said.

   Thus all these statements all go back to a single source – Rav – according to what I explained. The message is that it is necessary for everyone to purify 248 limbs and 365 sinews in this world by means of observe the 248 positive commandments and the 365 negative commandments. This is a prerequisite if a person wants to enjoy being in the Divine presence as I have already explained. Consequently this would only be relevant for men since they fulfill all 248 positive commandments while women are missing the time bound mitzvos which they are exempt. Thus those limbs which are not purified by obligatory mitzvos are not purified and remained damaged and thus can not benefit from the Divine presence. Despite this Rav concluded from the verse that despite this lack of purification the promise that G‑d gave to women was greater. Therefore Rav was not asking a question of R’ Chisda but in fact was explaining the meaning of the verse. He was telling R’ Chisda that reason that they have a greater promise is because they cause their children and husband to learn Torah. Thus his explanation is that since they are aiding their husbands and children to learn Tporah and keep and do all the 613 mitzvos – they receive reward even for those mitzvos that they themselves are not commanded to keep. Similarly for Torah study – even though they are not commanded to study and the reward of Torah is equal to the rest – nevetheless the women do in fact receive reward for all mitzvos. We find such an explanation by R’ Eliezar ben Azariah in Chagiga (3a) by Hakeil – Why are children brought – to give reward to those who bring them. That is also the explanation here in in resolving the difficulties in this aggada.

   Posted 10 months ago #

7. Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname
   Troll

   "A virtuous wife is a crown to her husband." Ever notice how the crown is higher than the person wearing it! Isn't that odd?!

   I also wonder why there is no composition for an "Ish chayil" (only "Aishes chayil")- you would think...?

   Also the order of the breiya in breishis starts from the lowest forms - domem(earth, water etc.), tzomeach (vegetation), chai (animals), medaber (man)...and then woman! Woman was the "sof ma'aseh - b'machshava t'chilah"!

   A woman says a brocha, "she'asani k'ritzono" because Odam was created from earth, so his tzura (form) was limited by the chomer (Material) and therefore could not be mamesh "k'ritzono". However, Chava was created from no earthly chomer, her celestial chomer was built around the rib, so her tzura was not limited to any chomer and made completely k'ritzono!

   Posted 10 months ago #

8. Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname
   Troll

   Having said that, I need to prepare supper for my husband - he is king in my house (and I am his queen)! He is my Rabbi Akiva and I am his Rochel!

   Posted 10 months ago #

9. Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname
   Troll

   Ko somar l'bais yaakov, v'tagid l'bnei yisroel - the women were given the Torah first!

   Posted 10 months ago #

10. yerushalaymer
    Member

    fully agree with "the little i know."

    by the way hundreds of gedoilim were makpid on every rambam; and they still treated their wives really well.

    Posted 10 months ago #

11. trak443
    Member

    Goldenpupik,

    Aishes Chayil was NOT written for/about each of our wifes!!!!

    Posted 10 months ago #

12. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    Goldenpupik: That's a cute point from the order of the B'riyah, but I think that your last paragraph is borderline Apikorsus. You should be very, very careful with that P'shat.

    Posted 10 months ago #

13. pcoz
    Member

    Wow, so many quotes

    Posted 10 months ago #

14. The little I know
    Member

    This thread is heading in a direction of those preaching male dominance and frank chauvinism, with retorts that draw attention to the virtuosity that is granted to the female. My earlier comment is that the Torah is not chauvinistic at all. Hashem simply delegated certain roles to the male and others to the female, and made their creation such that they complement and complete each other. Once a marriage is turned into one of dominance and servitude, it ceases to be a marriage, and deteriorates into that of master and slave. This is not only opposite of Torah goals, but the individuals involved will lead lives of misery. There is nothing spiritual in that relationship.

    If the comments move into the debate about the dominance stuff, I will respectfully ask the moderator to close the thread and even remove it. It would not be an educated discussion with a purpose other than to battle for victory on a blog. Someone must set some higher goals in their life than to stoop to that level.

    Posted 10 months ago #

15. shlishi
    Joseph

    Shabbos(118b): R’ Yossi said, I have never called my wife “my wife” or my ox “my ox”, but rather I called my wife “my home” and my ox “ I called “my field.”

    Rashi(Gittin 52a): I called my wife my home – that is because all the necessities of the home are done through her and thus she is the main entity of the home. Similarly the ox is the main part of the field.

    Meiri(Shabbos 118b): A person should always use refined language. An example is that one talmid chachom said, “I never call my wife “my wife” nor my ox “my ox”. Rather I call my wife “my home” and my ox “my field.”

    Megila(13a): And with the death of her father and mother, Mordechai took her as his own daughter. A Tanna taught in the name of R’ Meir, Don’t read for a daughter (l’bas) but for a house (l’bayis). Similarly it says (Shmuel 2 12:3), And the poor man had nothing except one lamb which he had bought and raised together with him and his children. From his own bread it ate and it drank out of his own cup and it lay in his bosom and it was like a daughter to him. But why did lying in his bosom make it like a daughter (bas) to him? Rather what is meant it was like a wife (bayis) so here also it means a wife (bayis).

    Maharasha(Megila 13a): Don’t read it that Mordechai took Esther as a daughter but rather for his home... In other word he tooks her for his wife as they say in general (Shabbos 118b), “I called my wife my home.”

    Shabbos shel Mi(Shabbos 118b): I have never called my wife “my wife” or my ox “my ox” but I called by wife “my home” and my ox I called “my field.” Rashi explains that he was saying that, “even from my mundane talk one can learn wisdom.” The Maharal asks in Chidushei Agados, how can he rejoice and praise himself in the manner? He give an alternative explanation that he was attempting to motivate his wife and his slaves in doing their jobs.

    Daf ahl Daf(Shabbos 118b): ... The reason why he always referred to his wife as “my home” is because all the honor of the woman is to be inside (Tehilim 45) and it is not the manner for a woman to go out of the house. Therefore she is the principle member of the home and that is why he called her “my home.”

    Daf ahl Daf(Berachos 27b): In Minhag Yisroel Torah (O.C. 240:1) he notes that the Minhagei Maharil states, “That when Mahari Segel spoke about his wife with other he would say in German, ‘Mein hoiz frau’ (my house wife) as we see in Shabbos (118b) that he never called his wife ‘my wife’ but rather said ‘my home’). Rashi there says it was because she was the principle member of the home. When he would call her he would say in German ‘hert ihr nit’, which is the accepted practice in the world that husband and wife don’t mention their spouses name.” This that the Maharil did not say “my wife” when speaking in the presence of others or use her name, see Magid Ta’aluma, “Regarding Berachos (27b) where R’ Eliezar ben Azarya said, ‘I will go and consult with the members of my household’ and he went and consulted with his wife. This informs us that it is not correct to mention his wife’s name before others and therefore he referred to as “my household” when he meant his wife.” However this that the Maharil was careful not to call his wife at all by her name, see Redak (Lech Lecha) who notes the change in description. For Avraham it says, Your name will no longer be called Avraham while for Sarah it says, “You should no longer call her name Sarai.” That is because a man calls his wife by her name but the wife doesn’t call her husband by his name but rather in a respectful manner that reflects authority. (See Toldos Kol Aryeh who brings many sources for this).

    Daf ahl Daf(Gittin 52a): Maharam Shif explains that it was specifically R’ Yosse who did call his wife “my wife” because she was a bad woman as it mentioned in Bereishis Rabba (17:3), I will make for him a help-mate - If he merits she will be a helper and if not she will be against him. Rabbi Yehoshua said that if he merits to have a wife like the wife of Rabbi Chanina but if not he will have a wife like Rabbi Yosse. We thus see that Rabbi Yosse had a bad wife.

    However the Netzutzei Ohr expresses surprise at his words since the one who says that he didn’t call his wife “my wife” was Rabbi Yosse bar Chalafta who is cited in Rus Rabba (2:8). However the Rabbi Yosse who had a bad wife was Rabbi Yosse HaGalili. Therefore the Netzutzei Ohr gives a different explanation as to why Rabbi Yosse called his wife “my home.” This is based on Shabbos (118b), Rabbi Yosse said that he had sexual intercourse five times and he planted 5 cedars in Israel. He cites Tosfos in the name of the Yerushalmi that these were Yevamos and therefore he called them “my home” since with each one he established the house of his brother.

    Posted 10 months ago #

16. shlishi
    Joseph

    Rav Yaakov Emden (Avos 6:2): The verse (Mishlei 11:22) a beautiful woman who misbehaves is like a gold ring in the nose of a pig. The explanation of this verse is that Shlomo saw with his wisdom the lust that men had for women. Their love blinded them from seeing the disgusting aspects of women. This is stated in Shabbos (152a): A woman is like a pitcher of filth and her mouth is full of blood and yet everyone runs after her. If you would reveal to them her blemishes they would not pay attention. Thus Shlomo used a parable that was obvious and known to all and applied it to a woman. Thus it means that even though a ring is something very valuable – the pig itself is not beautiful. It is clearly disgusting to everyone and therefore even with the beauty of the ring – the pig itself is not innately attractive. This is the point of comparison to a woman. Thus when the external reasons for the attractiveness of women are removed – she herself is compared to a pig. A person should not be seduced by the form and beauty of a person since it is superficial. Thus a person who is perceived of as beautiful – the beauty is only to serve G‑d. If he doesn’t act in this manner, he destroys the godly image. Thus we see about the wicked Haman (Esther 7), And the face of Haman was covered. That is because he angered G‑d. The consequence for one who has caused anger and is reprimanded is to be degraded, embarrassed and to have his face concealed.

    Posted 10 months ago #

17. Curiosity
    Not a cat person

    Golden - whatever helps you sleep at night....

    Posted 10 months ago #

18. yytz
    Member

    For an alternate view to those quoted so far, google Rabbi Aharon Licthenstein and marriage.

    Posted 10 months ago #

19. shlishi
    Joseph

    Rav Avigdor Miller (Awake My Glory): There cannot be two kings. The marriage relationship is two-fold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition, the home is disordered. "Arrogance is unbecoming a woman" - Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is "the way of Jewish men that... honor and support their wives in truth" as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. "He honors her more than his own body" - Yevamos 62B, Bava Metzia 59A. He is the captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say "Please" and "Thank You" and never forget to be always polite to each other.

    Before marriage it is imperative to ascertain the young woman's attitude toward feminism and "women's rights" and careerism. It is out of the question to build a Jewish home, or any home whatsoever, if the prospective wife has been tainted with these anti-natural and anti-social preachings. The woman's career and happiness are in her home: absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her Free Will, and they are her chief forms of serving G-d. The modern orthodox "Rebbetzin" with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband's authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce. A Beis Yaakov girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beis Yaakov marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day. It is never a simple matter to achieve harmony in the home; effort and wisdom and fear of G-d are required. But with the additional burden of feminism, all problems become aggravated; and like all the unnatural and anti-social affectations of the libertarians this leads only to failure and unhappiness.

    Posted 10 months ago #

20. Curiosity
    Not a cat person

    GoldenPupik - I take back what I said in your other thread about you learning. It seems to me from all of your comments that I've read that you are fooling yourself if you think you are learning just to help your husband and your relationship. I'm getting VERY strong feminist vibes from you. I hope you don't take this as an insult. I'm just trying to help you get in touch with yourself by giving you an unbiased opinion. Someone who deep down feels inferior always needs to look for reasons why they are superior, while those who are comfortable being who they are do not bother with such things. I'm not a psychologist, but your statements speak volumes.

    A bas Yisroel should accept that her place is not in the beis medrash. It's not because a woman is lesser, but because a woman has a different role to play than a man. You should be careful lest your children suffer of gender role confusion. Please don't be offended by my comment, I'm bring 100% serious, and I'm praying that you're just trolling as some have suggested.

    Posted 10 months ago #

21. shlishi
    Joseph

    מנחת יצחק (ד:פג.ד): אמנם בכל זה, מה דנוגע לחומרות הבעל, י"ל, דכ"ז אם הבעל אינו מקפיד, על מה שהיא אינה נזהרת בכל אלו, אבל אם הוא מקפיד, הרי אמרו אין לך כשירה בנשים, אלא שעושה רצון בעלה, (הגמי"י פט"ו מה' אישות ה"כ), בשם תנא דבי אליהו, והובא ברמ"א (א"ע סוס"י ס"ט), וכן בש"ס (קידושין ל"א ע"א), שאתה ואמך, חייבים בכבוד אביך עיין שם, ואמרו (מגילה י"ג ע"ב), מאי האי דשדיר לן, להיות כל איש שורר בביתו, פשיטא אפילו קרחא בביתי' פרשדכא ליהוי, ופירש"י, פשיטא שאף הגרדן שורר בביתו, פרשדכא, פקיד ונגיד עיין שם, ועפ"י זה, המה דברי הרמב"ם שם (פט"ו מה' אישות ה"כ), וז"ל, וכן צוו על האשה, שתהי' מכבדת את בעלה ביותר מדאי, ויהי' לו עלי' מורא, ותעשה כל מעשי' על פיו, ויהי' בעיני' כמו שר או מלך, מהלכת בתאות לבו, ומרחקת כל מה שישנא, וזה דרך בנות ישראל ובני ישראל הקדושים והטהורים בזיווגן, ובדרכים אלו יהי' ישובן נאה ומשובח עכ"ל.

    Bava Metzia (59a): Rav said that whoever follows his wife’s advice will go to gehenim as we learn from Achav who followed his wife Isabel’s advice (Melachim 1 21:25). R’ Papa objected to Abaye by noting there is a folk expression, “If you have a short wife bend down to hear her whisper?” That is not a contradiction; it is only problematic to listen to a wife’s advice in matters of religion while it is desirable to listen to her in worldly matters.

    Meiri (Bava Metzia 59a): A person should always be careful not to embarrass his wife because she readily cries and therefore he will be punished for distressing her. The gemora states that all the heavenly gates are locked except for the Gate of Distress. From this they say that if a man wants to have domestic tranquility - all that he does with his possession and feeding his family and providing them with clothing - it should be done according to advice of his wife. A person should also be careful with household expenditures because disputes usually involve financial issues…

    Mishna Halachos (6:28): Question: Why did R’ Meir listen to the advice of his wife Beruria and pray that the sinners repent rather than that they die? It says in Bava Metzia (59a) that a man should not listen to his wife in spiritual matters! Answer: I don’t understand what is the question. R’ Meir did not listen to his wife’s advice but rather she presented an explicit verse and he accepted her understanding of the verse. Even in a situation of a student and his teacher, the student needs to mention to this teacher what he thinks it says in the Torah. If she was simply giving advice she would have said that it is prohibited to pray for someone to die. But she asked in a respective manner “Doesn’t it say in the verse…”

    ספר בניהו בן יהוידע על בבא מציעא דף נט/א
    שם אתתך גוצא גחין ולחוש לה. הא דאומרים לחוש, מפני כי גנאי לאיש שיקח עצה מאשתו בפומבי, לכך אמרו לו לחוש לה בקשת העצה, ואז ודאי גם היא תשיב לך בלחישה, ולכן לא אמרו לו גחין ושמע דבריה, או ושמע עצתה. ואומרם אתתך גוצא נ"ל בס"ד דרך דרש, דידוע הקושיא דמקשים בקראי, דפסוק אחד אומר מצא אשה מצא טוב [משלי י"ט כ"ב], ופסוק אחד אומר ומוצא מר ממות את האשה [קהלת ז' כ"ו], ומתרצים דהאשה צריכה להיות נכנעת לבעלה, שלא תחשוב עצמה שוה אליו במעלה, אלא תחשיב היא חצי בעלה במעלה, דאם תחשוב עצמה בהשוואה עמו, הרי זו מרה כלענה, דלכך הקב"ה הטיל יו"ד באיש, וה"א באשה, שהיא חצי מספר היו"ד, להורות שצריך שתחשוב עצמה חצי בעלה במעלה, אבל אשה רעה שתחשוב עצמה בהשוואה אינה רואה עצמה בשם אשה, אלא האשה בתוספת ה', כדי להשלים חסרונה להיות שוה עם בעלה, שיש לו אות יוד, ושני ההי"ן הם מספר יו"ד, ולזה אמר ומוצא מר ממות את האשה בתוספת ה', שמשוה עצמה עם בעלה, הנה זאת היא מר ממות, אבל על הרואה עצמה בשם אשה, עליה נאמר מצא אשה דייקא מצא טוב. ובזה פרשתי בס"ד מאמר התנא [אבות פ"א] ואל תרבה שיחה עם האשה, דהיינו עם הרואה עצמה בשם האשה, שתשוה עצמה עמך, אל תרבה שיחה לבקש ממנה עיצה במילי דביתא, אלא התרחק ממנה, ולזה אמר אתתך גוצא, שרואה עצמה היא חצי שלך במעלה, ואינה משווה עצמה עמך, זו היא אשה טובה, גחין ולחוש לה לקבל ממנה עיצה, דעליה נאמר מצא אשה מצא טוב:

    תלמיד הרשב"א (בשיטת הקדמונים) מסכת בבא מציעא דף נט עמוד א

    אבל במלאכת שמים אסור לו לאדם להלוך בעצת אשתו, לפי שאינן מכירות מעלתו. ועל זה אמרו כל ההולך בעצת אשתו נופל בגיהנם, שכך מצינו באחאב שנאמר בו אשר התמכר לעשות הרע בעיני י"י אשר הסתה אותו אזבל אשתו

    Shulchan Aruch(Y.D. 240:17): Both men and women are equal in being required to honor and fear their parents. However, the woman does not have the ability to fulfill this Mitzvah because she is subservient to her husband. Therefore, she is exempt from the Mitzvah of honoring her father and mother while she is married. If she gets divorced or widowed she is obligated.

    The Shach adds: It would seem that she is obligated if the husband is not makpid.

    Posted 10 months ago #

22. chocandpatience
    Member

    shlishi: are you the husband or the wife?

    Posted 10 months ago #

23. shlishi
    Joseph

    קידושין ל:
    דת"ר: איש - אין לי אלא איש, אשה מנין? כשהוא אומר: תיראו - הרי כאן שנים; א"כ, מה ת"ל איש? איש סיפק בידו לעשות, אשה אין סיפק בידה לעשות, מפני שרשות אחרים עליה.

    קידושין ל:
    ת"ר נאמר: +שמות כ+ כבד את אביך ואת אמך, ונאמר: +משלי ג+ כבד את ה' מהונך, השוה הכתוב כבוד אב ואם לכבוד המקום; נאמר: +ויקרא יט+ איש אמו ואביו תיראו, ונאמר: +דברים ו+ את ה' אלהיך תירא ואותו תעבוד, השוה הכתוב מוראת אב ואם למוראת המקום; נאמר: +שמות כא+ מקלל אביו ואמו מות יומת, ונאמר: +ויקרא כד+ איש איש כי יקלל אלהיו ונשא חטאו, השוה הכתוב ברכת אב ואם לברכת המקום; אבל בהכאה - ודאי אי אפשר; וכן בדין, ששלשתן שותפין בו. ת"ר, שלשה שותפין הן באדם: הקדוש ברוך הוא, ואביו, ואמו, בזמן שאדם מכבד את אביו ואת אמו, אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא: מעלה אני עליהם כאילו דרתי ביניהם וכבדוני.

    Rambam הל' אישות פרק ט"ו:
    כ וכן צוו על האשה שתהיה מכבדת את בעלה ביותר מדאי ויהיה עליה מורא ממנו ותעשה כל מעשיה על פיו. ויהיה בעיניה כמו שר או מלך מהלכת בתאות לבו ומרחקת כל מה שישנא. וזה דרך בנות ישראל ובני ישראל הקדושים והטהורים בזיווגן. ובדרכים אלו יהיה ישובן נאה ומשובח:

    Tehilim (45:11-12):
    Listen, daughter and consider, and incline your ear. Forget your own people and your father’s house. And the king will desire your beauty. Because he is your master and you shall bow to him

    רמב"ם איסורי ביאה כא
    הלכה ט
    אשתו של אדם מותרת היא לו, לפיכך כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו עושה, בועל בכל עת שירצה ומנשק בכל אבר ואבר שירצה, [ובא עליה כדרכה ושלא כדרכה] ובלבד שלא יוציא שכבת זרע לבטלה ואף על פי כן מדת חסידות שלא יקל אדם את ראשו לכך ושיקדש עצמו בשעת תשמיש כמו שביארנו בהלכות דעות, ולא יסיר מדרך העולם ומנהגו שאין דבר זה אלא כדי לפרות ולרבות.

    שולחן ערוך אבן העזר הלכות אישות סימן כה
    הגה: ויכול לעשות עם אשתו מה שירצה, בועל בכל עת שירצה ומנשק בכל אבר שירצה, ובא עליה בין כדרכה בין שלא כדרכה, או דרך אברים ובלבד שלא יוציא זרע לבטלה (טור). ויש מקילין ואומרים שמותר שלא כדרכה אפילו אם הוציא זרע, אם עושה באקראי ואינו רגיל בכך (גם זה טור בשם ר"י). ואף על פי שמותר בכל אלה, כל המקדש עצמו במותר לו קדוש יאמרו לו (דברי הרב).

    שו"ת אגרות משה אורח חיים חלק ד סימן עה
    שלכן משמע שהאשה משועבדת להבעל לתשמיש בכל זמן שרוצה אף שלא בזמן העונה אם היא בבריאותה, והבעל אינו מחוייב אלא בימי העונה שקבעו חכמים ובליל טבילה ובשעה שיוצא לדרך וכן כשהוא מכיר בה שהיא משדלתו ומרצה אותו ומקשטת עצמה לפניו כדאיתא באו"ח סימן ר"מ,

    רמב"ם איסורי ביאה כא:יב
    וכן אסרו חכמים שלא ישמש אדם מטתו ולבו מחשב באשה אחרת, ולא יבעול מתוך שכרות ולא מתוך מריבה ולא מתוך שנאה ולא יבוא עליה על כרחה והיא יראה ממנו, ולא כשיהיה אחד מהן מנודה ולאו /ולא/ יבוא עליה אחר שגמר בלבו לגרשה, ואם עשה כן הבנים אינן הגונים אלא מהן עזי פנים ומהן מורדים ופושעים.

    שולחן ערוך אורח חיים הלכות ק"ש ותפלה של ערבית סימן רמ סעיף ג
    וברותי מכם המורדים והפושעים בי (יחזקאל כ, לח) אלו בני תשעה מדות: בני אנוסה; בני שנואה; בני נידוי; בני תמורה; בני מורדת; בני שכרות; בני גרושת הלב; בני ערבוביא; בני חצופה.

    מגן אברהם סימן רמ ס"ק ז
    ז (פמ"ג) אנוסה - אפי' אינה אנוסה רק שאינה מרוצה לכך לכן יפייס ואח"כ יבעול:

    משנה ברורה סימן רמ ס"ק יד
    (יד) אנוסה - אפילו אינה אנוסה רק שאינה מרוצה מפני כעס שיש לה עליו לכן יפייס ואח"כ יבעול:

    ערוך השולחן אורח חיים הלכות תפילות מנחה וערבית סימן רמ
    אמרו חז"ל בנדרים [כ':] כתיב וברותי מכם המורדים והפושעים בי אלו בני תשע מדות בני אנוסה שבא על אשתו באונס ואפילו לא באונס ממש רק שאינה מרוצה לכן יפייס ואח"כ יבעול וכך אמרו חז"ל בעירובין [ק':] אסור לאדם שיכוף אשתו לדבר מצוה שנאמר [משלי יט, ב] ואץ ברגלים חוטא וכל הכופה הוויין לו בנים שאינן מהוגנים דכתיב [שם] גם בלא דעת נפש לא טוב ויש לנו ללמוד דרך ארץ מתרנגול שמפייס ואח"כ בועל וכך אמרו שם שיש ללמוד צניעות מחתול שאינו מטיל רעי בפני אדם ומכסה צואתו וגזל מנמלה דכתיב [משלי ו, ח] תכין בקיץ לחמה ואינה גוזלת מאחרים ועריות מיונה שאינו נזקק אלא לבת זוגו ודרך ארץ מתרנגול ע"ש:

    Posted 10 months ago #

24. The little I know
    Member

    There is a fascinating commentary from the Gr"a on Mishlei (27:27). He distinguishes between a מלך and a מושל. The מלך is someone who is rightfully equal to his subjects, but that the subjects accepted his role as king. They subjugate themselves to him. The מושל is someone who pushes himself into a position to rule over others, by force or pressure. It is worth noting that many of the references that address the male dominance position refer to the husband as מלך, NOT מושל. The explanation seems obvious. It is the wife that subjugates herself to the direction of the husband, not the process of the husband oppressing his wife to be the superior.

    We might further recognize the line we recite in Maariv, ומלכותו ברצון קבלו עליהם, where we refer to the מלכות as something we willingly accept upon ourselves. As soon as the subjects no longer subscribe to their subject role, the מלך ceases to be a מלך. I bet the choice of words in all of the above references is intentional.

    Posted 10 months ago #

25. shlishi
    Joseph

    Ben Yehoyada (Menachos 43b):
    Rabbi Meir said that a man is obligated to say three berachos every day. It seems to me that a woman is at a major disadvantage relative to a man in that she is required to be subordinate to her husband and that he should rule over her. This submission is demonstrated by the nature of their relations. For example, there was a woman who was very learned and smart and her father was a great and important man who married her to an ignoramus who was the son of an ignoramus. She did not want to submit to her husband but rather she wanted to control him. Her father said to her: Submit yourself to your husband and he shall rule over you because that is what G‑d decreed. She said to him, That cannot be the decree for me or those like me - since I am educated and the daughter of a great man – to submit to a boor. Her father replied, The fact is that the decree of G‑d for a woman to submit to her husband is for all women – even for people like you – without exception. This can be seen from relations which is the principle attachment of a wife to her husband in which he is above her. These positions are the same for all men and women in the world. This is a strong proof that everyman rules over his wife – no matter who she is.

    There is a well-known story regarding a king of one of the nations and he only had a single daughter as his heir. She sat on his throne after his death and did not get married. Her uncle told her that she should hurry and get married. She refused saying: And can a queen submit herself to a commoner to be his mattress under him. The uncle replied: You must get married because if you don’t your kingdom will be lost after death since you have no children. She was forced to listen to his words and she got married. Therefore my daughter you must submit yourself to your husband according to the decree of G‑d who created the nature of relations in this manner that the man should be above and the woman should be below. This never changes even for a queen who is the wife of a commoner.

    Thus we see in the Torah (Bereishis 3:16), And to your husband shall be your desire – which our Sages say is referring to relations. Thus this is a strong proof that your husband is to rule over you. And similarly we can generalize from relations that the husband should rule over his wife. Consequently in the morning a man says the blessing that he was not made a woman.

    With this introduction we can understand the story that is brought in Bereishis Rabbah (20:7) concerning a woman who the child of important people who was married to a lowly man who afflicted her. The Sages heard about this to chastise him. When they came he placed before them a golden candelabra with a clay lamp on top as an allusion to the verse, “And your desire should be for your husband.” Rashi explains that he was hinting to them that even though she was an important person, like the gold candelabra, but her husband was like the clay lamp on top – nevertheless she loved him. As we stated he was demonstrating to them there was a necessity that he rule over her.

    Posted 9 months ago #

26. The little I know
    Member

    shlishi:

    You appear to support an abusive/dominant relationship as consistent with a Torah based marriage. That, my friend, is a grave distortion, one that should make you shiver. There is NOTHING in Torah that excuses abuse, whether in the forms of actions (verbal, sexual, physical, etc.) or in the nature of the relationship. I consider the use of Torah sources to push such an agenda מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. It is blasphemous to convert the Torah that stands for Shalom into a tool to excuse and justify this abusive form of dominance.

    There are particular roles for husbands and wives, and there are vast ranges of halachos based on this. Degrading a wife, subjugating her, making demands on her as one might do on a slave, have no place in a Jewish marriage. No reader should get the idea that such behaviors and attitudes are supported by the various references you provided.

    דרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום.

    Posted 9 months ago #

27. shlishi
    Joseph

    TLIK: I have not made a single comment on this thread, so you shouldn't be addressing your comments to me. *All* my above posts are simple and verbatim translations of Torah sources.

    If you have any additional Torah sources discussing this subject, please feel free to post them here -- regardless of what they say, i.e. even if they disagree with the above meforshim. (Though I am aware of no such disagreeing Torah sources, I stand ready to see them.)

    Posted 9 months ago #

28. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20): And thus our Sages have commanded that the woman honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king.

    Menoras Hame’or (2:176): Even though the woman is the mate of the man – she should not view her husband as an equal but rather as her master

    I don't run my marriage in this fashion. Frankly, I suspect that there are very few in this day and age who actually do.

    I have been married over 20 years and, with thanks to HKBH, have a wonderful marriage. It's a marriage of partnership and of equals. I don't dominate her (and I certainly don't "put the fear" of me upon her. I don't set myself up as her "king," "ruler," or "master." We have a marriage where we respect each other's opinions. We also have a marriage where one person does not make unilateral decisions without the other. If we disagree on a subject, we work it out until we come to an agreeable compromise.

    I'm not saying that everyone's marriage has to be as mine is. Heck, if ruling over your wife as a master works for the both of you, go right ahead. But it annoys me when posters decide that they have to rule everyone else's marriage and imply that ALL marriages have to fit the model of a place and time that was VERY different from modern times and that that is the ONLY (proper) way to run a marriage. Culture (and even Jewish culture) has changed over time and with those changes come changes of what each partner expects out of a marriage.

    After more than 20 years, Eeees and I are comfortable in our relationship. For us to change our marriage as the OP suggests would be to destroy the marriage entirely... as I suspect it would destroy most Jewish marriages that exist today.

    The Wolf

    Posted 9 months ago #

29. gavra_at_work
    ^caution

    One could say there are many shades of grey in a relationship. Sometimes the grey is more black, towards being dominant/tyrannical. Other times, it is more white, towards making the deciding choice after all input is had. Just because someone is in a grey area does not make him/her abusive.

    To explain, there is a grey line between the husband being the king and being abusive, just like a king can become a tyrant. Having the final say does not mean that one side will not convince the decider what the proper the direction is. Communication is key.

    As Chazal say: "Zoche Nasis Ozer, Lo Zacah, Nasis K'Negdo". If one is Zoche & wise, their wife becomes their support. If not, she becomes an adversary. A supportive relationship is not abusive.

    Posted 9 months ago #

30. twisted
    pretzel

    Rebbetzin G, true, but there is the construct "ben-chayil"

    Posted 9 months ago #

31. shlishi
    Joseph

    Torah Temima (Bereishis 3:16):
    And he will rule over you - we learn from this that a woman asks for copulation through her actions while the man asks for it directly; and this is a good trait for women (Eiruvin 100b). Even though the trait of modesty is a good trait, nevertheless it is a curse that she can’t openly express it to her husband. It should be noted that this doesn’t explain the language “And he will rule over you” in terms of its literal meaning of having a master… Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezar (Chapter 14) notes that this is one of the curses of a woman and she should have her ear bored as a permanent slave and as a maidservant. The Radal says that this teaches that it has been decreed that a woman always has to pay attention to the words of her husband.

    It is logical that the reason for the practice of piercing a woman’s ears for jewelry is an allusion to the fact that she is enslaved to her husband as is noted in Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezar. If so then why isn’t the expression in this verse “He shall rule over you” explained according to this understanding [and instead the gemora says it means that she can’t ask openly for copulation]? … Nevertheless it definitely would appear that the verse doesn’t lose its literal meaning and that is also meant.

    Therefore in terms of the relationship of a husband and wife, the wife is obligated to accepted the authority of her husband as we find in the Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20): “Our Sages have commanded that the wife view her husband as a king and lord.” Aside from the language of this verse this idea of rulership can also be seen in the Sifre… that a woman does not have permission to speak before her husband. This is also possibly the source that Pesachim (108a) that a woman does not have to recline at the Pesach Seder in the presence of her husband. The reason being that he rules over her. She is exempt in the same way that a student is in the presence of his teacher. He cannot recline in the manner of freedom because of his fear and respect of his teacher. It is logical that this is the reason that a woman who does not fulfill the wishes of her husband is called a moredes (rebel). Since it is an obligation to accept him as king and lord [as stated in Rambam] therefore when she does the opposite - it as if she had rebelled against the kingdom. …

    Posted 9 months ago #

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