What Happens when God is Removed

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  • #615889

    Sam2
    Participant

    <h2>WARNING</h2>: This thread contains highly sensitive material of a very disturbing nature to any person with moral (and certainly Jewish moral) sensibilities. I feel obligated to discuss it, however, because there is a travesty going on in the world and we must do our part to protest it.

    I know that links aren’t allowed. I know that this rule is there for a good reason. But please, I ask the mods to seriously consider letting this article through. It is a must-read for anyone who wants to be a civilized person.

    Belgium is a civilized country. They are a society based on secular humanism. As such, they have decided that it is a moral decision to let people choose their times of death. This started as just doctor-assisted suicide for end of life care (which is a separate debate and presumably doesn’t constitute a moral failing in and of itself, even if it is technically murder). Belgium, though, extended “death with dignity” to include any person who has an incurable condition which, in the patient’s opinion, makes life not worth living.

    The article shows the true horrors, though. Autism is an incurable condition. As such, they are letting autistic people (who might not have the capacity to choose these things), to end their lives. If children have terminal illnesses, parents are allowed to have them “euthanized”.

    There are some times where the word euthanasia is appropriate. Turning up the morphine on the guy in extreme pain who has hours to live is a murder of kindness. This, though, this is just murder. It’s savagery. It’s Nazi master race-ism at its finest and most horrible.

    We, as people with a tremendous moral background of Halachah, and as civilized people in general, must strongly protest what is happening. Because, as Belgium shows us, when you do not have an immovable moral backdrop (e.g. God), you let your “morals” become twisted to the point where you think slaughtering children is the “humane” thing to do. It’s not humane, and it’s not human.

    Read the article.

    Sorry, link deleted. Search for it.

    #1088402

    TheGoq
    Participant

    What laziness why cant they just kill themselves? ok i read the article about the 24 year old with depression who will be killed per her wishes this summer, anyone who suffers from severe depression as i once did you do sometimes feel like whats the point in going on? but there is a point life can get better but it wont if you kill yourself i agree with you Sam this is a horrible thing its basically adult abortion and it is slippery slope.

    #1088403

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m not worries about the slippery slope. They’re at the bottom of the cliff already.

    Google “New Yorker Right to Die”

    #1088404

    cent_cent
    Participant

    If you look closely at history, you will see what was before G-d (the Torah) was introduced. Look at the pagan societies of Rome and Greece and you will be appalled at the ‘morals’ they display. (Think Colosseum – go watch people fight to the death, insatiable bloodlust – constant brutal warfare, rampant infanticide, and if you are really interested read about their out of control activity in terms of Arayos).

    To quote Aristotle “There must be a law that no imperfect or maimed child shall be brought up. And to avoid an excess in population some children must be exposed.”(ie killed)

    Or Seneca who advocated maiming abandoned children so that people could laugh at them collecting in the street. (all with a justification – they would have been dead otherwise so we are making them useful).

    Lest you think this is only in ancient times just look at the barbaric Indians in the Americas. The Aztecs – a highly advanced civilization that built amazing works and had advanced mathematics, calendars, science, etc. – had the most brutally efficient system for human sacrifice. They believed that the world would end if the blood stopped. So, they would go to war specifically to capture people to have a steady stream of sacrifices. (where they ripped their heart out). They were still doing this when the white poeple came over (only a couple hundred years ago).

    Truth is you don’t have to look that far back to see where atheism gets you. Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong – this is what a state without religion looks like. Complete lack of regard for human life.

    There is a general rule – Any civilization that has not been exposed to Torah you will find is a cruel, barbaric, immoral civilization.

    #1088405

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My goodness, cent-cent. If only you could step outside of your daled amos and see how others might view you….

    The Wolf

    #1088406

    atypical teen
    Participant

    Cent,

    I wouldn’t say ANY civilization that doesn’t have the Torah as a guideline to life will inevitably become a barbaric or cruel civilization… Immoral? Certainly. But not cruel and barbaric.

    Well, maybe they’ll do cruel and barbaric things, but they themselves will not necessarily be cruel and barbaric people.

    #1088407

    feivel
    Participant

    This is not the bottom of the slope. It just looks like the bottom. It looks like going any further would certainly be immoral. That’s what makes it slippery. To say we can go here but here we will stop……until we get quite used to it. How about making euthanasia mandatory for those with autism. How about mandatory euthanasia for the elderly. how about for those adults who utilize more public resources than they contribute?

    #1088408

    cent_cent
    Participant

    Also, if you want to see where atheism ultimately takes you look at the work of the ‘ethicist’ Peter Singer. His most famous position is basically that a person should have a period (anywhere from a week to a month or more) after the baby is born to decide if they want to keep it. If not, the baby is gotten rid of (in a “humane and pain-free” way of course).

    #1088409

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Yes, Sam, it is terrible

    #1088410

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @the wolf – Was there something incorrect in what I wrote? I think I was pretty accurate historically.

    If you look at history this will bare itself out. I am still waiting for them to find a lost tribe in Africa or South America that doesnt practice things like human sacrifice, constant tribal warfare, etc. There has never been a peaceful tribe discovered somehow.

    If you look at large portions of Africa where they have not been exposed to Torah (even in more developed areas) you will find constant tribal warfare, little value of human life, and immorality to the extremes.

    It is not just a question of immorality it is a question of cruel and barbaric thinking.

    If you want more reading look at the ancient druid rituals of human sacrifice, or read about the Greek views of pederasty. Or the far eastern practices for the palace workers (which didnt stop until 1912).

    As a side note, I do not think of myself as confined to my “daled amos”. I work in a normal job with a big company. This is just the truth that most people really are unaware of.

    #1088411

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @atypical teen – I didn’t say that any civilization without the Torah as a guideline would be this way. I said any civilization that has not been exposed to the Torah. Big difference. Many civilizations have rules now that closely mirror ideas that were gotten from the Torah.

    These rules can be set and can keep civilizations in line.

    However, it is also true that once ppl do not remember what was behind these rules they can go pretty quickly.

    #1088412

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The ancient Greeks and Aztecs were very religious. Most of the barbaric things they did were part of their religions. So it shows against false religions, not atheism.

    #1088413

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @rebyidd23 what I mean by religion is Monotheism. A single force controlling the world. Basically what was introduced by the Torah to the world.

    The ancient view of Gods were basically people with powers. Superheros. The Gods didnt dictate morality they were just a means to get what you wanted so you had to placate them. Give sacrifices to various deities and get what you are asking for. The ancient deities themselves were also after power and lust. They were the same as humans just with superpowers.

    #1088415

    rew
    Member

    The Aztecs were not ‘Indians’. That is historically a factual mistake Columbus made when he reached Central American Islands thinking he reached what he called ‘West Indies’. The Aztecs were the ‘Aztecs’ a very religious tribe in north America NOT India. Even though Columbus’ mistake is still live and well, calling Native Americans ‘Indians’.

    TORAH really includes Neviim, Ksuvim, Mishnah, Talmud…. In Yirmiyahu it says ???? ??????? ????? ?????? . Rachmaniyos means they didn’t become barbaric despite ????? ??? or maybe according to you they did. If so, having the torah had no impact on their actions so what is your argument?

    According to PETA the whole concept of ‘Korbanos’ is barbaric. If you want to fight against the ‘barbaric war’ you will end up in hot water.

    If this is really so terrible and against the Torah, a religious jew will move away for the sake of Torah. But the fact that they give permission for people to choose doesn’t yet mean it is obligated to choose to do so. Since there is no obligation to choose to end life this way there is no fight.

    #1088416

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    More like supervillains, actually.

    #1088417

    rew
    Member

    cent: Please don’t be affended when i ask where you learned your history?

    #1088418

    atypical teen
    Participant

    Rew,

    Perhaps you should object to a specific thing Cent has mentioned that is wrong from your viewpoint, thereby opening a discussion that has the potential to be enlightening rather than hurtful.

    #1088419

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @rew – You are correct about the Indians but that has become the modern term so I just used it.

    Your comment with PETA is true. They would definitely think it is barbaric. However, if you look at history it is comical to the point of being absurd for a non-believer to call anything in the Torah barbaric or immoral. In the pre-Torah world there was not a large value placed on human life let alone animals. The whole concept that animals should not be mistreated comes from the Torah.

    As an example in the colesseum (and I keep going back to it because this was the most advanced and orderly civilization of its time) the opening act before people fought to the death was exotic animals brought in to the arena to tear each other apart. That is what the world was like pre-Torah.

    As to your point from Yirmiyahu – I am not saying that people who have been exposed to Torah cannot do things that are bad. The main point I am trying to bring out is that basically all of our modern sense of morals (value of life and such) comes from the Torah. So once G-d goes, civilization can take a sharp turn downhill.

    This is not my original idea. It has been pointed out by historians. To quote historian Paul Johnson: “Certainly, the world without the Jews would have been a radically different place. Humanity might have eventually stumbled upon all the Jewish insights. But we cannot be sure. All the great conceptual discoveries of the human intellect seem obvious and inescapable once they had been revealed, but it requires a special genius to formulate them for the first time. The Jews had this gift. To them we owe the idea of equality before the law, both divine and human; of the sanctity of life and the dignity of human person; of the individual conscience and so a personal redemption; of collective conscience and so of social responsibility; of peace as an abstract ideal and love as the foundation of justice, and many other items which constitute the basic moral furniture of the human mind. Without Jews it might have been a much emptier place.”

    If you want additional reading about this check out ‘World Perfect’ by Ken Spiro at Aish Hatorah. Its a great book that sums up this idea perfectly.

    #1088420

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @rew – No offense taken at all. I guess you could say I am a little bit of an amateur historian. Just something I do on the side. Not a super expert by any means.

    These types of things you never learn in school. In history class they just concentrate on the major events like wars, disease, different kings, etc. They don’t focus on the daily life of these civilizations. If you look more in depth though you will see that this is true.

    #1088421

    cent_cent
    Participant

    @rebyidd23 – Yes. That would definitely be a better term.

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