I know its either December 4th or 5th but I am not sure which one
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when do we start saying vsan tal umatar this year
(9 posts)-
Posted 5 months ago #
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Its the 5th.
Posted 5 months ago # -
GOQ: how does it work? It goes by when the next year is goyish leap year?
Posted 5 months ago # -
This question is ONLY for those in the exile since we have been saying since the 7th of heshvan tan tul umater
Posted 5 months ago # -
PBA: It's 60 days after the Tekufa, which in theory moves back one day every 4 years. The leap year in the Gregorian Calendar takes care of that for us so that it's the same day almost every year. But yes, it is December 5th in the year before a leap year.
Posted 5 months ago # -
To expound on Sam2's correct explanation, each tekufa occurs 365 days and 6 hours after the same one last year. In the year of a civil leap year (such as 2008), Tekufas Tishrei is on October 7th at 3:00 am.
The next year (2009) it is on October 7th at 9:00 am.
The next year (2010) it is on October 7th at 3:00 pm.
The year before the next leap year (2011) it is on October 7th at 9:00 pm.
If next year (2012) would have 365 days, it would be October 8th at 3:00 am, but since it is a leap year, it goes back to October 7th at 3:00 am, just like 4 years previously.Therefore, 60 days from the tekufa is always December 4th, at either 3:00 am, 9:00 am, 3:00 pm, or 9:00 pm, respectively. But since the Jewish day starts in the evening, December 4th at 9:00 pm is considered the following day, December 5th. So in the year before a leap year, we (i.e. those of us whose exile is in חוץ לארץ, as opposed to those whose exile is being lived in ארץ ישראל) start saying ותן טל ומטר on December 5th.
(We are using civil dates for convenience, because both the tekufa and the Gregorian calendar are solar based. This has nothing to do with the fact that the legal day starts at 12:00 midnight.)
To take the calculation further, this only works for dates between 1900 and 2099. But since the gregorian calendar skips a leap year in 3 out of every 400 years, that means that in the 1800's they would start on December 3rd or 4th, and after 2100 it will (theoretically) be either December 5th or 6th.
Posted 5 months ago # -
I am not an expert in this, but I know that Sam2 is correct.
However, every one hundred years the date moves forward by one day. Every four hundred years, the date does NOT move by one day. So the date will move three times every four hundred years.
When I was young, the siddurim said Dec. 3/Dec. 4, and since then it has moved up a day to Dec.5/6.
The obvious problematical issue of a gradual change in the date (in the time of Shmuel, the date was in mid-late November)is a topic for another discussion.
Living in Eretz Yisrael, I rarely think about it.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Tal Umatar? When 'old man' winter arrives!
Posted 5 months ago # -
Ironically,we in folks should be saying the same time as in Israel.
Talk Unstated is intended for local conditions and in Bavel they need the rain in December so it was changed for them. The Rosh, to to avail, argued that since France and Germany needed the rain the same time as Israel
w,the start date should be changed back. So,here we are praying that Iran and iraehave good crops.Posted 5 months ago #
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