A friend of mine was driving, and got pulled over by a police officer. One of the passangers in his car was not wearing a seatbelt. The police officer gave the driver a ticket for this.
My question is, who is reponsible (halachicly) to pay for this ticket?
Assuming the law is, that the driver is responsible to make sure his passengers wear seatbelts. Will this Halachicly be the same, or it is the passenger who is chayav.
(I will not pasken from here, don't worry)
I would say the driver is
The reason being because it's the driver who was driving
(In other words the driver can say before starting the car "I'm not driving until you put on your seat belt)
ca - True, but really its the guy wearing the seatbelt who did the avlah.
Sorry rb,
The avlah is "driving while someone isn't wearing his seatbelt" the avlah isn't "lack of wearing a seatbelt"
I think R' Yitzchok Zilberstein once paskened a case like this. Don't remember the psak. There was a similar story, where too many people went into an elevator and the elevator broke. The question was: who should pay? Maybe they should split the cost, maybe the last person that went into the elevator, they wanted to know who had to pay! I think it was R' Elyashiv (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)that paskened that the one who pushed the button for the elevator had to pay, because without him, NOTHING would have happened!!
there have been numerous halachic queries posted in various publications and websites of similar type cases,(where passenger was doing something which could get driver in trouble) Consistently, the driver has been found to be negligent as nobody forces a driver in their own car to give them a lift. The driver should have insisted that the passenger wear a belt or pulled over until the passenger got out or complied.A normal passenger, aside from the safety issue, if explained that the driver will be held responsible will listen. It might make for a sticky situation but the driver must be adamant. Hatzlacha
The ticket was given to the driver,it is the drivers responsibility ( I would assume). I just saw a shaila similar to this from the Torah business weekly. It was a rent a car and a light was out the driver got a ticket I believe the dayan paskened the driver was responsible.
In Halacha there is no avairo to fail to wear a seatbelt except for the factor of Dina D'Malchusa.
The Chovos Halevavos in Shaar HaBitachon says that there is only a chiyuv hishtadlus for shmira for a hezek matzui. And getting into an accident where someone gets hurt is not a hezek matzui.
As far as Dina D'Malchusa, the obligation and fine is imposed by the state on the driver. He is the one who the secular law targets with the responsibility to ensure that his passengers are wearing seatbelts.
I don't see how the person who was not wearing the seatbelt did an avlah. Against whom? The driver? How does he have a responsibility to the driver. The state mandates that the driver make a condition of being a passenger that they wear seatbelts. The only obligation that I see is on the driver to make a condition on the passenger that he wear the belt or leave. I agree with coffee addict.
This is why I do not give rides to women with babies. I do not have a car seat and I could get ticketed.
When I do give women rides I always tell them to buckle up.
AbA -"The Chovos Halevavos in Shaar HaBitachon says that there is only a chiyuv hishtadlus for shmira for a hezek matzui. And getting into an accident where someone gets hurt is not a hezek matzui."
I consider it Motzui. Motzui doesn't mean it happens every day to every other car. Motzui means it's common. And yes it's pretty common for car accidents to have injuries involved!
ABA - The passanger did the avlah of not wearing a seatbelt, which caused the driver a fine.
in england, the passenger gets the fine if over the age of fourteen.
Real-Brisker:Google "Halacha ticketing the driver",you will see first result will take you to this case on Hilchos choshen mishpat submitted to a Beis din.sources are listed on page
A company hired a van service to pick up it's workers. The van was licensed to carry a maximum of 10 passengers. One morning, 12 workers needed a ride, and the extra two workers squeezed in.A police officer noticed, pulled over the van, and issued a ticket to the driver. The driver is requesting that the passengers pay the fine, since it was issued because of them.
Answer:First of all, we must realize that there is no violation of law to overload a parked vehicle with more passengers than it has a legal capacity to carry. The violation is for driving such a vehicle. Consequently, it should be obvious that according to Halacha, the person responsible for the penalty is the driver. The van was stopped when the last two passengers entered, and afterwards, the driver commenced driving, the driver is the one who caused the fine to be levied, and is held solely responsible for payment of the fine.
Rb,
In essence you're saying since the passanger didn't put on his seatbelt he was gorem the driver to get a ticket
However I'm sorry but, groma bnezikin is pattur
coffee addict -I think if the driver said e/o buckle up at the begining and s/o older than Bar/bas Mitzva didn't listen -they are a Garmi and not a Grama and therefore be Chayav to pay!
Health,
anyway the driver started driving he wasn't gorem the driver driving
On the other hand I would agree that if the passenger pretended to put on the seatbelt maybe the driver would be pattur
Hi rb.
You pose a good question.
I am guessing that in the realm of drivers and passengers, if chas veshalom there is an accident, the driver, whether in the same car or the car which caused the accident, would be responsible for any and all passengers.
In that light, if you had to choose who is responsible for seat belts, I think you would have to put the onus on the driver, even though we dont think of drivers enforcing seat belt use. I do, though, but only for front seat riders.
Halachically, I am guessing whatever the laws would be if someone comes into your home/business/property and they are careless/wreckless with their own safety, who would be responsible.
Interesting scenario/senahrio.
coffee addict -"Health,anyway the driver started driving he wasn't gorem the driver driving"
He's not Mechuyav to check. If the guy says -"No, I'm not." -then the he would be Putter. If he didn't say anything after the driver said -"Put on seatbelts" -then he is Chaiyuv, not the driver. Adults have to take responsibilty for their own actions. Goyim don't believe in this concept -that's why they ticket the driver. The Goyishe laws are full of this Naarishkeit -that they pass the buck. The most blatant example is the winning of a lawsuit because the person got burnt because they didn't know coffee was hot.
Crazybrit - that's only if the person who is over 14 is sitting in the back seat. The driver is responsible for the passenger in the front seat because he is able to see if the passenger next to him is wearing a seatbelt or not and if not he should stop the car, but the driver doesnt have any control over what the passengers do in the seats behind him because he cant see and therefore if they are over 14 they are responsible to pay themselves. i guess if they're under 14, though the driver hasnt got control over what they do he should probably be making sure they're all strapped in before starting to drive.
To all those saying its the drivers fault - Let me ask, what would you say if thhe law is that either should pay. Would you still say the same?
Health,
I don't understand what you're trying to say
If the passenger said "no I'm not" and the driver started driving anyway then its for sure the driver's fault for being posheia
Health - I am with you.
I saw this case which i think is the same, http://www.torah.org/advanced/business-halacha/5757/vol3no10.html
It might be the rider who committed the avla, however, legally the driver is responsible to ensure that his passengers are seatbelted, so if he does not HE is committing an avla of another type, as well. He is responsible. it would be proper for the one who caused him to be nichshal, to pay the fine for him. If a parent lets a toddler cross the street without holding his hand, and he runs into traffic and gets hit by a car, whose fault is it?
Rb,
When you find out the answer please tell us
1.real-brisker
Now that's Brisk, Baby!
A friend of mine was driving, and got pulled over by a police officer. One of the passangers in his car was not wearing a seatbelt. The police officer gave the driver a ticket for this.
My question is, who is reponsible (halachicly) to pay for this ticket?
Assuming the law is, that the driver is responsible to make sure his passengers wear seatbelts. Will this Halachicly be the same, or it is the passenger who is chayav.
If the passenger is over the age of 16 he is responsible. If he's not the driver is.. before the engine starts running the driver has the responsibility to ensure all passengers are buckled up!
more - What does age 16 have to do with anything?
ca - If i ever do.
MODS - I psoted in the last two days around 15 posts, and around 10 of them have been deleted/not approved. Was there something wrong with them? Is there any reason why? If you are not going to post my posts, then Block Me! I don't need to waste my time typing upposts that will not get approved. AND PLEASE DON'T IGNORE THIS ONE AS WELL. PLEASE ANSWER ME.
I have no idea. Sorry I can't help you more. -95
Sorry, I have no idea either. - 44
Add me to the list as well. Sorry. - 622
Me neither. - 9898
-95 - Can you look at the previous posts which I've posted, and check if you see any slight reason why they may have not been aprooved?
I have no idea.
-95 - Thats weird. Thanks anyways. Would the mod who deleted them please explain?
Not me. Another mod must have gotten annoyed with you for some reason.
i can figure out a few good reasons. jk
Rb, I just looked through your deleted posts. There were only 2 or 3 from the past day but I did see one that might have bothered The Editor. The rest were in threads where the entire thread was deleted (at your request).
42 - Oh well you just answered that question, (by saying it bothered the editor). What about the post that was on WIY'a "Great News" thread, and 3 other posts on this thread? Thanks for your response.
CA -"If the passenger said "no I'm not" and the driver started driving anyway then its for sure the driver's fault for being posheia"
That's exactly what I'm saying, but only in this case is the driver Chaiyuv.
If the driver tells e/o to buckle up and they don't listen, unless the driver knows that they didn't listen -then they are Mechuyav to pay, not the driver; if they are Gedolim, not Ketanim.
You must log in to post.
RSS