Who wants to be a Tzadaikes like Rus?

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  • #597330

    Health
    Participant

    My answer to all the older guy shidduchim posts -You can marry an older guy even if you’re young and even if it isn’t PC.

    #1180079

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    How old were Rus and Boaz?

    #1180080

    always here
    Participant

    40 & 80 per the D’var Torah I heard in Shul today.

    #1180081

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Health,

    Boaz was the Rosh Sanhedrin

    #1180082

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Shouldn’t we all learn from the Rosh Sanhedrin?

    #1180083

    Health
    Participant

    coffee addict -That shidduch wasn’t based on Yichus, like you’re implying. He was a Baal Chessed!

    #1180084

    Health
    Participant

    Always – can you imagine how they would talk nowadays if there was a 40 year difference? Now I understand why the tongue is like a sword -how many shidduchim and marriages are killed because someone said something? Imagine for a second, if in that generation they would put up with all this bad talk about others?

    But what’s important by e/o nowadays -how long a woman’s skirt is!

    #1180085

    hanib
    Participant

    health – actually, that’s why ploni almoni didn’t want to marry rus. he said that he wasn’t big enough to marry a moavit, even if it is muttar – they’ll be too much talk. Boaz was great enough to ignore the talk.

    #1180086

    hanib
    Participant

    i actually thought the thread was about, why would someone want to be a tzadekes kike rus. she became very poor, had to pick her own wheat, take care of her mother-in-law, and married an 80 year old guy who died that same night, and was considered an outcast, as she was a giyores from moav!?!

    not an easy life.

    #1180087

    hello99
    Member

    According to the Malbim Rus was 12. According to Rashi in Divrei HaYamim Boaz was 300!!!

    #1180089

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    coffee addict -That shidduch wasn’t based on Yichus, like you’re implying. He was a Baal Chessed!

    I’m sorry I gave off that implication

    I was trying to say that you can’t bring a rayah from a tzadik like Boaz and Rus that did it L’shaim Shamayim

    Rus did it fully because Naomi said so and it even says in Rus that Boaz praised her that she didn’t go for the younger men (mashma in those times too you married within your age range)

    #1180090

    Health
    Participant

    binahyeseira – Missed my point. They would never talk about age difference, not like in our generation.

    “and was considered an outcast”

    Who says she was considered an outcast? Name the meforshim. And so she was poor, I’m sure after her marriage to Boaz she wasn’t anymore.

    #1180091

    Health
    Participant

    coffee addict -“I was trying to say that you can’t bring a rayah from a tzadik like Boaz and Rus that did it L’shaim Shamayim”

    Well that was my opening question. We should try to emulate our Tzadikim. Obviously it won’t be easy, especially if it’s not PC.

    “mashma in those times too you married within your age range”

    Not necessarily, just most people probably got married at 18 for males. So how much of an age difference could there be? At the youngest, the wife has to be at least 3 y.o.

    #1180092

    charliehall
    Participant

    “At the youngest, the wife has to be at least 3 y.o.”

    Today a wife has to be at least bat mitzvah age. And under secular law in the US, a wife has to be older in almost all states, even with parental consent.

    #1180093

    Pac-Man
    Member

    In New York State the wife can be 14.

    #1180094

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Today a wife has to be at least bat mitzvah age. And under secular law in the US, a wife has to be older in almost all states, even with parental consent.

    Excluding the evil divorcees who figure they can get back at their spouses who gain full custody of their female children.

    I remember a case way back, and it was a real problem.

    BTW, there is no reason in Halacha why a girl can not get married off at birth.

    #1180095

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And (trying again), Rus had to do specific actions for Boaz to realize she was the right one for him. Perhaps our current crop of girls should take a page for her book, and put more “hishtadlus” into getting married (even noting Keddushin 2b).

    #1180096

    pumper
    Member

    If your bringing rayos from Rus and Boaz, what you should be highlighting is that Boaz saw Rus for her internal development, and wasn’t concerned with the fact that she was a convert or that she didn’t have a father who would support them

    #1180097

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Not necessarily, just most people probably got married at 18 for males.

    That’s just an assumption,(you might be thinking about the time of the Tannaim)

    let’s look at the avos and gedolim,

    Yitzchak got married when he was 40, Yaakov when he was 60, Moshe was somewhere between 60 & 80, Yosef when he was 30.

    #1180098

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    The better question is: how many of us would allow our sons to marry Rus? Her ancestry is a shainda. Her great great grandmother slept with her father. Would we allow a shidduch like that?

    Imagine the case: A Shadchin calls up you up and says she has the most wonderful girl. A balas chesid, machiv torah….all A+++++. But, she is a product of an incestuous relationship. Would ANYONE today allow their son to date her? I do not think the greatest rosh yeshiva today would allow his son, the future gadol, to marry her.

    What Boaz did was AMAZING, but I do not think anyone can compare themselves to him.

    #1180099

    charliehall
    Participant

    “In New York State the wife can be 14.”

    With consent of all parents and a judge. The age is 16 with consent of parents; 18 otherwise.

    #1180101

    BSD
    Member

    “But what’s important by e/o nowadays -how long a woman’s skirt is!”

    It is precisely that-Rus’ tznius-that impressed Boaz.

    #1180102

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “It is precisely that-Rus’ tznius-that impressed Boaz.”

    AND her incredible chesed.

    #1180103

    hanib
    Participant

    health – my point was that in this way i don’t think people in those days were much different than we are (except that a woman wouldn’t divorce so easily, even if she was miserable)- that’s the gadlus of boaz and rus; they did the right thing even though people would talk.

    #1180104

    Health
    Participant

    BSD -“It is precisely that-Rus’ tznius-that impressed Boaz.”

    I doubt that- the posuk says “Shocheves Margulosuv”.

    #1180105

    Health
    Participant

    coffee addict -Time to start on decaf.

    “(mashma in those times too you married within your age range)”

    “That’s just an assumption,(you might be thinking about the time of the Tannaim)

    let’s look at the avos and gedolim,

    Yitzchak got married when he was 40, Yaakov when he was 60, Moshe was somewhere between 60 & 80, Yosef when he was 30.”

    You just contradicted yourself. Did they get married within their own age range or not?

    I tend to agree with your latter posts- that it was commonplace to marry a girl much younger than the man -taboo in our generation!

    BTW, my post I was saying even if you say they married within their own age range, doesn’t mean they held it had to be that way!

    #1180106

    Health
    Participant

    binahyeseira- “my point was that in this way i don’t think people in those days were much different than we are (except that a woman wouldn’t divorce so easily, even if she was miserable)- that’s the gadlus of boaz and rus; they did the right thing even though people would talk.”

    Yes, I understand your point, but this is our fundamental disagreement: There are two types of talking. One someone doing an Aveira and one someone doing something not PC. The community in that time never heard of the Din -Moavi V’lo Moaviah. So if Ploni Almoni would be Mechadesh it, noone would accept it and say he is being Oiver an Aveirah, as opposed to Boaz (the Godol).

    In our generation, if you do something not PC, like marry a girl 20 years younger, the world will talk. They didn’t have these kind of hang ups in that generation!

    #1180107

    Health
    Participant

    anon1m0us – A Ger/geyorus has a Din of a Koton just born. There is no Yichus except for the Din of Ger!

    #1180108

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Health:

    It was, in fact, her tznius. Medrash says that is what he noticed in her, that SOLE FACT. How she modestly squatted to pick the low-lying ones, instead of bending down. (refer to the crises in cars for more on this)

    As far as the other acts she did, they were directly guided by Torah counsel – no personal gratifications of any sort. Chalila to attribute that to lack of modesty!

    #1180109

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    coffee addict -Time to start on decaf.

    NEVER!

    You just contradicted yourself. Did they get married within their own age range or not?

    You’re referring to Yitzchak and Yaakov, I hear that point, however Tzipporah was Moshe’s age and Osnas was Yosef’s age

    #1180110

    Health
    Participant

    ZeesKite – You’re correct. I didn’t mean to imply that she wasn’t a Tznuah. He did notice her because of what you wrote. But this isn’t the reason he wanted to marry her. The posuk says very clearly because of her Chessed. It seems from learning it with some Meforshim, it definitely was a Maaloh that she was such a Tzunah, but the main reason he wanted to marry her was because of her Chessed!

    He didn’t call her An Aishes Chayil until after he saw all her Chessed. So whom wants to be An Aishes Chayil like Rus, in our generation?

    #1180111

    morah reyna
    Member

    Don’t we all aspire to be an aishes chayil today?

    #1180112

    Health
    Participant

    morah reyna – Now that you know the definition, you know in which direction to go.

    #1180113

    Brucklyn Jewess
    Participant

    Zeeskite, the fact that Ruth was not driven by personal gratification would not be enough to legitimize something wrong. Now we know that chazal see her actions in a good light. But just like we analyze her conduct in the feild, “shocheves margilosav” deserves to be analyzed as well. It’s not enough to give the “we can’t understand it” chant.

    #1180114

    veteran
    Member

    coffee addict-

    Tzipporah was a young girl tending her father’s sheep and certainly much younger than the nearly 80 year old Moshe, and Osnas may have been the daughter of Dinah, who herself was only around the age of Yosef.

    If you’re looking for a similar age shidduch in the Torah, it’s Adam and Chava. She was still younger though. After that the gap just grew and grew.

    #1180115

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    veteran,

    do you have a mekor for how old Tzipporah was (saying she tended her father’s sheep doesn’t prove anything)

    also according to a lot of opinions Dinah was 3 when she was taken so Osnas had to have been 3 years younger than Yosef

    #1180116

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Brucklyn Jewess:

    The answer to that is – I don’t understand. I really don’t. (another issue added to the things I don’t know)

    #1180117

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    do you have a mekor for how old Tzipporah was (saying she tended her father’s sheep doesn’t prove anything)

    we also know that Yisro was an adviser to Pharoh even before Moshe was born

    #1180118

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    do you have a mekor for how old Tzipporah was (saying she tended her father’s sheep doesn’t prove anything)

    Since shepherdesses of 80 years of age are extremely rare (to say the least), I’d say the burden of proof is on you to say that she was so than on anyone else to say that she wasn’t.

    IOW, where’s your makor that Tzipporah was anything other than a young woman?

    The Wolf

    #1180119

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My answer to all the older guy shidduchim posts -You can marry an older guy even if you’re young and even if it isn’t PC.

    And even if the gemara strongly advises against it? (Yevamos 101b)

    #1180120

    veteran
    Member

    I am aware of a gemara that puts Levi at age 13 at the time of the maaseh Shechem, but I would ask you to cite a source that puts Dinah at age 3. If you will recall, at the time of the incident where Yaacov met Eisav, his youngest son (Yosef) was 6-7 years old (we know this because Binyomin was in utero). Dinah was older than Yosef [as we know from Chumash, where Leah prayed for her 7th pregnancy not to result in a son since that would shame her sister Rachel]. Hence, according to any opinion, Dinah would have to have been a minimum of 8 at the time.

    In any case, combining the two opinions would present a serious difficulty. If you will take the opinion that she was 3 (pending citation of a valid source for that) you will not be able to claim that Osnas was born of that union. Correct me if I am wrong.

    As far as Tzipporah, I have no proof one way or another. But the account given lends itself to the assumption that she was not as old as Moshe (nearly 80). Aside from the way we are told about them as “daughters” indicating their youth, the fact no meforshim remark on her bearing children as miraculous indicates that it was ordinary (i.e. not an 80 year old woman). Beyond that, I will hark to Wolf who believes the burden of proof rests on you.

    Just out of curiosity, what gave you the idea to randomly choose these two marriages as close in age? You don’t seem to have any proof, and there is also no obvious reason to think it was so. If you were looking for examples (other than the one I presented jokingly) you could have gone with the meforshim who say the shevotim married their own twins.

    #1180121

    veteran
    Member

    “we also know that Yisro was an adviser to Pharoh even before Moshe was born “

    This further hurts your credibility. If anything, it shows that Yisro married when he was quite old and presumably to a young (child-bearing age) woman. Similar to Moshe/Tzipporah and just about every other marriage in the Torah.

    #1180122

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    This further hurts your credibility. If anything, it shows that Yisro married when he was quite old and presumably to a young (child-bearing age) woman. Similar to Moshe/Tzipporah and just about every other marriage in the Torah.

    or that he married young to someone his age and his daughter Tzipporah was Moshe’s age

    #1180123

    Health
    Participant

    DY – “And even if the gemara strongly advises against it?”

    I looked it up. The main gemorrah is Mem Daled (I think). You must be joking because otherwise you just Crumed up the Gemorrah. You do realize that was an Eitza for someone who had more than one woman he had to marry, it has nothing to do with regular marriage or even regular Yibum. It costs a lot of money to marry a few women, so they helped him choose.

    #1180124

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I looked it up. The main gemorrah is Mem Daled

    It’s on kuf aleph, amud beis, sixlines before the wide lines.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=14&daf=101b&format=pdf

    The relevant passage reads:

    ??????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????

    #1180125

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Hence, according to any opinion, Dinah would have to have been a minimum of 8 at the time.

    any opinion that you looked at, not exactly any opinion

    Dinah was older than Yosef [as we know from Chumash, where Leah prayed for her 7th pregnancy not to result in a son since that would shame her sister Rachel].

    they were the same age the reason Leah davened she should have a girl was because they were both pregnant at the time and Hashem switched both fetuses (however you want to learn it)

    I’m sorry I’m in the process of moving so all my sefarim are in boxes right now, but will try to find sources in yeshiva and write them down

    #1180126

    twisted
    Participant

    Like Yehuda and Tamar (also not exactly the BY paradigm ) it was orchestrated from above to prepare the ancestry of Mashiach. It is not about tznius (mixed messages from Tamar) or about shiduchim, (rather short duration (one pirush in Yehudah/Tamar)), it is about the importance and nature of the Mashiach.

    #1180127

    Health
    Participant

    Daas Yochid -“It’s on kuf aleph, amud beis, sixlines before the wide lines.”

    Oh, so you weren’t joking. I don’t know what type of gemorrah you used, but take a regular one and go to Kuf aleph and there you’ll see a star -that points to the main gemorrah on (I think) Mem Daled -there you will see what I posted above is the Pshat!

    #1180128

    Health
    Participant

    twisted -In order to be a mother of Moshiach you have to be a great Tzadaikess, like Rus who was full of Chessed. One of her best Chassodim was marrying an older guy. So who wants to be like Rus?

    #1180129

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    twisted -In order to be a mother of Moshiach you have to be a great Tzadaikess, like Rus who was full of Chessed. One of her best Chassodim was marrying an older guy. So who wants to be like Rus?

    who wants to have the responsibility of raising moshiach?

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