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I think BYM realizes that: there is not a single Rav or Rebbetzin (“in our camp”, in your words), that will tell BYM that she may learn Gemara, even though it is not assur, simply because there is no Mesorah to do so.
I don’t have an opinion on this topic, really. This is an observation.
BYM
So what?
When did I state that Chazal knew every scientific fact known today? I am not stating they did or didn’t it’s irrelevant.
The question was what indications do we have of Chazal’s greatness.
I answered simply.
The Rambam had a pretty thorough knowledge of Shas and likewise had a pretty thorough knowledge of the Science that was known in his day.
And based on that the Rambam states that it’s obvious to anyone who learns Chazal that they knew far more scientific facts then were known in their days and could only have developed that knowledge from Torah.
Bym
I don’t know if chazal knew all of science or just what was nogeia to their limud Hatorah. However it is possible they knew things that Hashem did not want revealed and they therefore could not reveal it. I’m sure you know the story with the Chazon Ish and brain surgery (it’s a true story and I heard the diagram is online someplace). If the Chazon Ish who never learned secular subjects can extract such wisdom from the Torah only 60 some odd years ago who knows what chazal knew? You do realize that Hashem has allowed science to progress at a very fast rate in the last 150 years. Its not because we are smarter Hashem has a plan for humanity and he wants us to have certain information at certain times. I wouldn’t be so impressed with science. Just like most of the science of 50 years ago has been debunked today and is irrelevant, much of today’s science that people are so obsessed with today will also be found to be irrelevant in 50 years. Theres so much that the scientists don’t know. I’m not sure why anyone would be impressed with them. They ar
And just to add.
I don’t have the time to look things up now but I for some reason I think that Lakewood001 is confusing things a drop.
The Gemora in RH discusses many calculations of Rabban Gamliel regarding the positioning of the new moon.
Sure these were known.
I did not discuss calculation of the positioning of the New Moon.
I discussed the time difference that elapses between New Moons to the exact millisecond.
From what I have seen that fact was written in the Gemorah but not known to be accurate till the 1990’s
I need to apologize for questioning your education methods. Looking back, I see now I missed your response. To me, education is extremely important, and I personally can’t stand bad teachers. So I may have jumped a little too fast.
Speaking of education, I too have been quite disappointed with mine. However, I’m not too sure there’s really any method of education out there in todays world that would have worked
for me either. In all my years, there was only one teacher that ever sparked an interest in me religiously. My philosophy
teacher in 12th grade. Besides for that, all Hashkafa and philosophy has been self-taught with library books hidden under my desk during class.
However, the majority of women DO seem to do well with what is out there. I wouldn’t see you or I as good representation for Jewish
women in general. Education is aimed at the masses, not the individual. I’m sorry it didn’t work out so well for you.
In general though, I wouldn’t recommend Gemara classes in schools before I’d put it classes for philosophy and emotional/social health if I had a say in the education system. So rather then put in tracks, I’d say why not go to a school that does teach girls
about Gemara if an individual requires it? They do exist in the MO communities.
But the past is gone for you. There’s only now, and Gemara does speak to you. The two random people I asked opinions about this, both agreed that on an individual basis there seems to be many scholarly sources, and people who would allow it. (yeah, in OUR world as some of you out there put it) Again, this is if you are truly sincere about this. I’ll be honest here. I do have doubts since you brought this up in such a public forum, and there has been recent Jewish feminist activity against the frum world. However, I can also reason for myself why you chose this now, so I’m going to try to judge you favorably here. If so, since you’ve mentioned being close to Rebbitzin Heller, ask her. When everyone suggests you ask a Rabbi/Rebbitzin, it isn’t because we don’t have an answer. It’s how our Torah system works. Even Dovid Hamelech had a Rebbe for difficulties. The internet is a bad judge of character. Having a Rav/Rebbitzin is having someone to turn to who know you as an individual. They help you, and in turn, have someone they can turn to for their own difficulties. (The Psychology system works the same way. A good psychiatrist will have someone he/she turn to in order to make sure they themselves are on the right track- This is an example of modern beliefs that have been used by the Jewish people for thousands of years already)
Most of science builds on the science of previous years.
Just an example offhand.
Ever heard of Dr. Benjamin Rush?
He was one of the foremost Dr’s in the Colonies at the time of the American Revolution.
He also was a fervent believer in bloodletting in a major way.
I thin it was Hamiton? he attended and his efforts to save the mans life are described now-a-days as “torturing him to death.
In fact the “cutting edge” medicine practiced then in hindsight is pretty much considered “barbaric” in hindsight.
Bym
Even if the Chazon Ish read some medical books as a child he definitely didn’t read about advanced neuro surgery and from the way I heard the story he learned the procedure from a Tosafos or something.
Either way what value does science as a whole have? For a forum person who knows that today we are here tomorrow we are in olam haba who cares about scienc?! I wwon’t say it’s not interesting but it’s so not a big deal in life. Most people don’t know more than rudimentary science and it has no impact on their lives. You happen to be into science but it seems that you have allowed hobby or interest of yours to take over. I totally don’t see why you should care one way or another about chazal scientific knowledge. They weren’t scientists they were Torah sages. If I were to know for a fact that there are people today that know more science than they did it would mean nothing to me. It wouldn’t affect my respect for them. Like I mentioned earlier the greatness of chazal has nothing to do with science but rather with who they were as people and what they accomplished in Torah and avodas Hashem. And I’ll say something else. For someone on the level of chazal why would they even care about science? They were above science. They were able to do miracles and be mechayeh meisim. So why should they even care about science?
Because you seem to think science is something special and I’m showing you as a probability that chazal knew science. However I am much more impressed with his Torah knowledge and tzidkus because at the end of the day (and the beginning and all the in between moments) That’s what is important and that’s what we are here for.
Theres another point you should know. Mir shtarbt nisht fuhn a kashyah. Just because you have some difficulties, even if you have some very good legitimate questions you should know that there are answers out there and although you want answers and you should attempt to get them if you don’t get those answers you should be able to sideline the questions and not let them affect your Emunah. There are people who have very legitimate reasons to have questions. I saw someone recently who nebach is paralyzed. Such a nice guy. I’m sure he has every reason to have Kashas yet he goes around with a smile and daven and learns and gives it his best shot. I’m not trying to deligitimize whatever is bothering you but just keep things in perspective. You aren’t the smartest person to ever live or the deepest thinker. There are a lot bigger questions than what you can ever think of and there are answers to those as well. You seem ready to throw it all away and I have yet to hear why.
Btw if you need someone great to talk to you sshould contact Rabbi Mordechai Becher. He is one of the most well rounded people I know of. He also has a sense of humor so that’s a plus. He won’t give you lame answers.
Ben Levi: And the Gemara brings down Refuos that would be called “superstitious” nowadays. What’s your point?
Whoa, this post got too long. A long argumentative response will probably get lost in the crowd, but read this:
For all the people who keep denying the obvious truth that EVERYTHING in the Gemara was said by Hashem at Har Sinai, here is the lashon of the Rambam which I mentioned (and provided the source for) earlier. Many people said I was mistaken and that the Rambam never said this, so here it is. Taken from the Hakdama of the Rambam.
????? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????
Pretty clear.
Also, here’s another point:
Chachmah is loosely translated as the ability to absorb knowledge.
Binah is usually lomed davar mitoch davar; the ability to reason and extrapolate knowledge.
Da’as is the ability to choose between right and wrong (think Eitz Hada’as. Also see Rambam Hilchos Teshuvah)
If the purpose of Gemara was the intellectual side of it, why does the Gemara use the lashon “Nashim da’atan kalos” when providing a reason that women shouldn’t learn Gemara? Wouldn’t you expect binah to be the neccessary brain function? Actually, women were blessed with a binah yeserah, which should make them better than men at learning Gemara?
I believe the answer hinges on what I said before. Learning does not affect a person because of the intellect. Obviously, it takes intellectual skills to learn Gemara. Maybe women can do that too; I don’t know. But learning Gemara is connecting with the da’as of Hashem, which means that a person’s da’as becomes more in line with His Da’as over time. Therefore, for example, his instinctive right/wrong decision-making abilities will be trained to be on the same wavelength as Hashem.
WIY, Rambam says at the beginning of Moreh Nevuchim that it is obligatory to study science in order to gain a greater appreciation of Hashem and to prepare the mind to learn Tora.
Lev, those are halachic terms, not scientific terms.Nobody today denies that many scientific statements in the Gemara are incorrect scientifically.The arguement is whether they meant them literally or metaphorically.
Avi K – Was that response meant for me? I’m have no idea which part of what I said you’re contending.
EDIT: My mistake; I see now that you were talking to Ben Lev
If anyone wants to see a great piece on how shiurim fom the Gemara (e.g. k’zayis, 40 sa’ah, etc.) are exact in their nature and not merely assumptions or round numbers, see Kovetz Shiurim, chelek Bes, in Kuntrus Divrei Sofrim siman Vav.
Ben Levi,
I am not confusing anything. The amount of time between new moons had been correctly calculated before 120 BCE by the Greeks and as far back as 300 BCE by the Babylonians as I mentioned in my earlier comments. This is not based off of any religious text. It’s a fact.
I am not saying Chazal weren’t more knowledgable then the Average citizen in their time. Im sure they were very educated in the “science” of their time. The average citizen probably didn’t know anything.
” I would like some info about the shiurim if possible, thnx”
Here are the ones I know about in my neighborhood:
Weekdays after first minyan at Riverdale Jewish Center, the daf yomi shiur led by David Quint welcomes women. Shabat it meets before minchah. My wife learned Berachot with this shiur.
Weekdays after first minyan at Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, the daf yomi shiur led by Rabbi Dov Linzer welcomes women. Shabat it meets between minchah and maariv and Sunday it meets at 7:30am. My wife learned Shabat and Eruvim with this shiur.
Sunday mornings after Shacharit at Young Israel Ohab Zedek of North Riverdale Yonkers, there is a gemara shiur by Rabbi Shmuel Hain that is geared to beginners and has several women attending every week. Rabbi Hain has years of experience teaching gemara to woman at Stern College.
Most Tuesday nights at Riverdale Jewish Center there is a women-only gemara shiur led by Rabbi Michael Stein, the former Assistant Rabbi of the Riverdale Jewish Center.
Most Friday mornings after the first minyan at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale there is a gemara shiur led by Rabbi Steven Exler that welcomes women.
You also might check out the Drisha Institute in Manhattan; I know that they have classes that are open to women or women-only. I am sure that there are also synagogues in Manhattan with clases that are open to women but as I don’t live in Manhattan I can’t direct you.
May the new year be filled with learning!
Sam2
My point was that to state all science builds on previous science is foolish and usually said by people who have never studied the evolvement of scientific thought.
1) regarding bloodletting, leeches are back in style.
2) a k’zayis is not “exact”. It’s a KEzayis, not a zayis.
3) If you don’t know science, you end up giving very poor answers when people raise questions, and you end up in many cases losing those people.
4) How much is pi in the gemarah?
Chazal, in the gemarah, were not “interested” in scientific experiments, so they used the science of their day when discussing things. It’s like 20 years ago, the atom was the smallest thing known to man, now we know there are things smaller. Doesn’t make anyone 20 years ago wrong, it just means we continuosly learn new things.
truthsharer –
20 years ago, the atom was the smallest thing known to man, now we know there are things smaller.
You are joking, right?! The first subatomic particle to be discovered was the electron in 1897. In 1900 the foundations of quantum mechanics (which deals with what happens at a subatomic level) were laid down by Planck (he of the constant fame) and the two main models that we work with nowadays were fully constructed by the late 1920s. The atom itself was split for the first time in 1917 (by Rutherford) and 28 years later the first a-bomb was detonated. In other words, people have known for a while that there was stuff smaller than an atom.
Again, Pirkei Avos says “Asei licha Rav”. This applies to Rebbetzins, too. In fact, there is a concept of a “Rav’s Rav”; even Rabbanim need a Rav.
Find a Rav who will answer your questions. Perhaps ask your husband to do so for you. Surely someone can address your goal, whether or not learning gemara is an appropriate medium to accomplish this.
Moshe emes viSoraso emes. Kisiva VaChasima Tova to all of Klal Yisrael.
truthsharer,
Sure leeches are back in style, however not even close to the amounts that Dr. Rush and physicians in his day made use of.
Stating that Chazal were not interested in experimentation is 100% wrong. When it came to relying Halachicay on any scientific theory they absolutely experimented an example is in the first perek of Kesubos. Another example would be Rosh Hashonah which clearly contains numerous examples of evidence based calculations resulting from observation in calculating the Molad and other parts of Kiddush HaChodesh.
Further more this point was actually emphasized by Rav Chaim Volozhiner in Shaar Daled of Nefesh HaChayim where he discusses the need to be expert in certain anatomy’s such as grasshoppers in order to properly rule on them in regard to what is the proper “lishmoh” of Torah learning.
As for the statement of Pi, that’s a pretty bad example as the Gemorah (Sukah) there states clearly it is rounding out meausements because of Lo Duk, furthermore the Gemorah on Amud Beis expliclty rounds up the area needed for a circular circle.
The theory that Chazal did not experiment comes from the fact that Galileo proved many parts of Aristotle’s theory through experimentation, consequently people have decided that it must be Chazal had the same approach.
However anyone who has studied Takmud knows the comparisons have no basis in reality as Chazal clearly show the need for experimentenation before relying on any theory in a Halachic manner.
Lakewood
What do you mean its based off any “religious text” its “fact”.
What makes any “religious text” less or more “fact” then any other?
I hope you don’t mean Historical chronicles since most Historians take any particular nations historical chronicles with a healthy dose of skepticism since al Nations (except the Jews) were in the habit of recording their good things and twisting their defeats and losses into victories and benefits.
Also as you have stated that you regard Josephus’s historical documents rwritten under the eyes of the Romans with “skepticism”.
It seems to you regard anything Jewish as possibly false and anything non-Jewish as “fact”.
lakewood001
The Rambam does not state that Chazal knew more science then the average citizen of their time.
He (arguably one of the greatest Doctors of his time) stated that anyone who studies Chazal sees they new more science then was known in their time period.
Really you should actually study stuff.
Hillel the Second calculated the Solar year to be 365 days 5 hours and 55 Mins, the actual amount is 365 days 5 hours and 49 mins.
Every year 6 mins are added to the year and over 1700 years almost 2 weeks have been added to the calender.
Tefukat Tisheri (First day of Fall) is supposed to be Oct 4, but its actually Sept 21
Tekufat Nissian (First Day of Spring) is supposed to be April 4, but its actually March 21. Causing in some years Pesech to fall out in Winter
I hope you don’t mean Historical chronicles since most Historians take any particular nations historical chronicles with a healthy dose of skepticism since al Nations (except the Jews) were in the habit of recording their good things and twisting their defeats and losses into victories and benefits.
The Gemorah states that Nero left Rome and converted to Judaism and was an ancestor of Rebbe. This account of Nero was not recorded anywhere else and its generally accepted that Nero was either killed or committed suicide. In any case he had no known decendents and if he did they would have been killed as they were their rightful air to the Roman Emperor
Part of the problem (with regard to the period of the New Moon) is that everyone thinks you need to have super-advanced clocks to measure that sort of thing and that, without it, there’s no way to accurately measure from one New Moon to the next.
The truth, however, is that it’s not all that hard at all. All you have to do is know how to count and do some long division.
Ancient astronomers used to keep careful track of days and astronomical events. They used to count days, months and years. They also used to track astronomical events, such as eclipses.
A solar eclipse can only happen when the sun and moon are in conjunction (i.e. at the time of the Molad). Therefore, if you know that X number of solar eclipses occured over a period of Y lunar months encompassing Z days, all you have to do is divide Z by Y and presto… you have the length of time from one molad to the next. The more data points (X) you have, the more accurate your measurement becomes.
So, you don’t really need super-advanced clocks to determine this value. All you need is a count of days and months and eclipses. Both Chazal and the ancient Babylonian astronomers are capable of computing this value.
The Wolf
There are quite a few references (in various astronomical writings over the centuries and coincidentally cited in Wikipedia and other places) by secular astronomers commenting that the Jewish sages of antiquity made astronomical calculations documented in the Talmud that were ahead of their time, where the world astronomers could not make as accurate calculations.
On a slightly tangential note, the secular world cannot account for how the Jews were able to have the Kosel Hamaaravi built with such large stones that human beings could not carry at a time before machinery that would enable such a structure.
Ben Levi,
When I say it’s a “fact” I mean that you cant write a fact like the length of the month if you do not know it. It’s not a “historical” narrative told after the fact by people with a clear agenda; which as you pointed out can be easily twisted. I asked for an example of something scientific that was known to Chazal and no one else and you provided me with something that chazal said that was already known by non Jews in the times of Chazal.
On a slightly tangential note, the secular world cannot account for how the Jews were able to have the Kosel Hamaaravi built with such large stones that human beings could not carry at a time before machinery that would enable such a structure.
The Great Pyramid at Giza also had lots of large stones and they predate the Kotel by a few centuries, at least. The stones at Stonehenge are even larger than those at the Kotel and the Pyramids, and they predate both.
Clearly, they had ways to move them.
The Wolf
where the world astronomers could not make as accurate calculations.
Did you even read the post I put before yours?
The Wolf
Causing in some years Pesech to fall out in Winter
Or Succos to fall out in the summer, as it does this year.
The Wolf
Shopaholic – Same with Stonehenge, the Maoi, the pyramids, the Aztec temples.
ZD
I have no idea what the point of your post on Nero is from what you write it sounds like this.
Chazal state that Nero converted and Rebbi cam from him.
The Romans do not account for his end so most think he was either murdered or committed suicide (in other words they do not know his end).
OK, makes sense.
Do you honestly think that the Romans were going to tell the story of how an Emperor of their converted to one their main enemies?
Lakewood001.
Actually most of Nach was written by the protagonist.
Most of Mishnah, Talmud, and Midrash are redacted versions of Collected writing rulings and discussions of Sages over a period of time so they could not have been written in “real time”. There are exceptions where isolated Midrashim may actually have been written by the protagonist (Parts of Pirkei D’rabi Elizer for example)
Wolfish Musings.
I think shopaholic simply stated a fact literature about astronomy that discusses the Astronomy of Chazal generally acknowledges that Chazal in their writings displayed a knowledge of astronomy that was far beyond what was known in their times.
BTW as for the actual calculations in question I admit that this stuff is not my strong point however from what I understood from what I studied part of the differences in calculation have to do with the fact that we Chazal count the seasons differently then seculars six as opposed to four.
Did you even read the post I put before yours?
My apologies. It occurs to me that my post may not have been up when you posted.
The Wolf
I think shopaholic simply stated a fact literature about astronomy that discusses the Astronomy of Chazal generally acknowledges that Chazal in their writings displayed a knowledge of astronomy that was far beyond what was known in their times.
Perhaps, but using the period of the moon is a bad example, as I’ve demonstrated that it can be calculated by doing nothing more than counting and using long division.
BTW as for the actual calculations in question I admit that this stuff is not my strong point however from what I understood from what I studied part of the differences in calculation have to do with the fact that we Chazal count the seasons differently then seculars six as opposed to four.
The length of time from one new moon to the next has absolutely nothing to do with the number of seasons.
The Wolf
Truthsharer
4) How much is pi in the gemarah?
I’m assuming you’re referring to the number 3, used in many places in the Gemara to refer to pi.
You missed the Mishna in Eruvin (1:5), which also uses the number 3. You also missed the Rambam’s commentary to that Mishna.
Since I know you probably won’t bother to look it up, here is his comment:
?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
Short summary: Pi is a number which is not known; not due to our feeble minds, but because in metzius it is a number which cannot be attained. Therefore, since there will never be a way to write the number in its entirety, the Chachamim chose the whole number “3” to refer to pi.
Basically, why choose a complicated number when you can choose a simple number, when both will anyway be wrong?
The Rambam’s words still hold true 800 years later. We now have all but proven that pi is an irrational number.
Hi Bais Yakov Maidel 😉
i haven’t posted on here in a really long time, but this thread caught my attention and a few things about it are confusing to me so i’m hoping that you will be able to clarify things for me.
i understand that you have not had the best experience in the BY system and you have a large gap of knowledge in your Judaic studies compared to your secular studies and that’s about where my understanding ends.
Small tangent.
Torah would be lahavdil history/literary analysis.
Gemora would be law and case studies.
Science IS the brilliance of Hashem, but there is no comparitive “Jewish Science” because there is one world and its the same secular and Jewish world, meaning the same science.
I dont understand why learning law would make up for your science knowledge. Thats like comparing apples and oranges.
ok so your a science/logical person.
An experiment; Is Judaic studies up to par with secular studies in logic and reasoning.
Hypothesis: Judaic Studies is just as brilliant as secular studies.
Experiment: Will learn secular science and learn Hebrew law and compare them.
Conclusion: Invalid experiment because there are 2 variables not one.
So im confused why GEMORA is the answer to your problems.
It seems to me that in order to understand “profundity in Halacha” you should ask your husband or LOR or look up what you are confused about. No need to learn Gemora and become even more confused about things you never thought of.
Then your post moves on to a whole different topic.
“But there was none of this “females have a different brain and therefore can’t learn x-y-z” shtus that I always got from my Jewish educators.”
No one said you can’t learn science. You should feel up to par with your male colleagues…no one said you shouldn’t. They said that about Gemora and then again science and Gemora are two different worlds.
You wrote
“when I need the rational components, they aren’t there.”
so ASK, LOOK IT UP, there’s sources for everything, and rabbanim for everything!
I want to be able to think that chazal were great people
Gemora is one compilation written over a span of 300 years out of a long history of the Jewish People. There are PLENTY of other works written by chazal that show they are great people. Read the works of the tannaim, gaonim, rishonim,acharonim. There are a lot more Chazal than the ones in the Gemora.
Read the debates of the Rambam with Pablo Christiani. They are BRILLIANT. and quite accessible. That will show you the greatness of Chazal. There are books written on a lot of Chazal that you can read and has stories of their brilliance. Read about the Vilna Gaon. Rashi. Rabbenu Gershom. They all are brilliant people.
“The secular world has no problem with the fact that I’m a woman. They open all the intellectual doors to me. “
(Just random side point, if the secular world had no problems with women there wouldn’t be a need for the feminist movement. So dont make them seem all nice and innocent 😉
“What about the frum world? Will the pre-screen me and say that “by virtue of the fact that I am female, I don’t have the brain capacity to really understand gemara… it’s just the way Hashem made things…”?”
Yes. they will. because on a general level that’s what the BRILLIANT CHAZAL said. but on an individual level, like asking a rav no they wont. There are plenty of exceptions and plenty of women who have learned gemora. Which is why asking this to a public forum the general consensus would be no women shouldnt learn gemora. But if we actually knew you and your case personally we might have a different opinion.
“I’m willing to give learning gemara a shot. But in the world I originally come from, the doors are closed. Whether hashkafically or practically.”
What on earth does “the world i originally come from mean”?
and if you’re so opposed to the BY system,WHY ON EARTH IS YOUR USERNAME BAIS YAKOV MAIDEL???
I haven’t read the whole thread, but are we talking about the bavli or the yerushalmi?
This moderator is tired of dealing with these same posts. Start a thread on the topic and keep it in that thread. Thank you.
To get back to the original topic: I have absolutely no inclination whatsoever. I am a very busy wife, mother and teacher, and my brain is fried after having kids. I think that trying to learn gemara, which is anyway a very complex and difficult thing to learn would dissolve my brain totally. Not saying this because I think I am stupid – on the contrary I am somewhat intelligent (although my kids seem to have permanently borrowed my intelligence now), I just understand that a woman, who is busy with a growing family, does not have the capacity for concentration on something so deep and complex.
Just to clarify, capacity is meant in the meaning that circumstance and situation do not allow for it
To answer the OP: Maybe they’re trying to convert?
notasheep, so what do you think about single girls, or older women, or childless women, who are not busy with child-rearing, learning Gemara?
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