A bit bothered by some advertisements in frum publications

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  • #607481

    WIY
    Member

    I was recently looking at a frum publication and noticed 2 troubling advertisements. One was an advertisement for a fancy brand name hotel for people to make simchas in. The other ad was an ostentatious advertisement for a frum Jewelry business with a picture of a $40,000+ watch on it. Are we Jews so rich that we now wear $40,000 watches? Who are they advertising to and if people do wear $40,000 watches its very sick indeed. A Jew shouldn’t be so megusham. Furthermore we keep hearing about how nobody has parnassah yet these advertisers obviously are getting business of people making simchas in hotels and people buying insanely expensive Jewelry that costs more than most cars. If we have so many rich Jews why do Yeshivos and organizations have such a hard time staying afloat? What is going on? I am confused when I see such ads.

  • #1009158

    cantgetit
    Member

    +1 WIY

  • #1009159

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You never drove through Borough Park or Flatbush at night and see inside peoples house and see fancy Chandeleiers?

  • #1009160

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Who are they advertising to

    Obviously, people who can afford watches in that price range.

    if people do wear $40,000 watches its very sick indeed

    That’s merely your opinion. I personally hate ostentatious displays, but that doesn’t mean that one who doesn’t hate them is “very sick indeed.”

    yet these advertisers obviously are getting business of people making simchas in hotels and people buying insanely expensive Jewelry that costs more than most cars

    What is your problem? Is it that the advertisers are earning a living? Or that people go on these vacations and buy these cars?

    Furthermore, once a person meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes.

    In addition, keep this in mind: if you don’t allow someone to spend his money on luxury items, all you’re doing is putting the luxury item maker out of business. You are, in effect, *removing* parnassah from the community, not adding to it.

    The Wolf

  • #1009161

    If we have so many rich Jews why do Yeshivos and organizations have such a hard time staying afloat?

    When the yeshivos open the books, and are not so “exclusive”, then people will give more. Now they believe that the money is better spent on themselves than on others who don’t need it. Especially if the rich man’s child would never be accepted.

  • #1009162

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Obviously some members of our community have more money than they know what to do with and their friends and neighbors spend beyond their means to imitate them. There’s no reason for a $40,000 watch. Better off buying 2 $1000 watches and hgiving the $38,000 to tzdaka. Some of the wealthiest people I know of live normal lives without flaunting their wealth and give generously to numerous tzdakas.

  • #1009163

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    Recession or no recession: THE RICH GET RICHER THE POOR GET POORER

  • #1009164

    phdmom
    Member

    why does this bother you so much? wow, i can’t believe the nastiness towards the wealthy. jealous much? Everyone has their tayvos; if someone can afford it, wearing an expensive watch is relatively harmless. if someone is super wealthy and can afford an expensive watch, who are you to tell him not to? the wealthy people that i know literally support the city. if they choose to wear fancy clothes and make lavish simchas etc, that’s part of our nisayon as non wealthy people, not theirs. i can’t understand this attitude that it’s the wealthy people’s fault that someone else feels the need to break the bank by imitating them. everyone live according to their means, and shalom al yisroel.

  • #1009165

    oomis
    Member

    I am not wealthy, but I feel strongly that as long as someone IS regularly giving tzedaka, it is no one’s business how they spend their money otherwise, assuming it is not contrary to Halacha.

  • #1009166

    cantgetit
    Member

    Wear a fake Rolex that cost $100 and that looks real and like it cost $40,000. Then you’ll make the rich guy with the real watch angry.

  • #1009167

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is no Halacha that if I can afford it, I dont need to drive a Kollel Mobile instead of a Lexus

  • #1009168

    cv
    Member

    Ten yours ago the price of a coffin (in a Jewish funeral home) was in a range between $ 900.00 and $ 36,000.00

    Most likely, some people willing to pay $ 36,000.00 for a coffin and some – $ 40,000.00 for a watch.

    I don’t think it is anybody’s business, how people spend their own money.

    As WolfishMusings said: “once a person meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes”

  • #1009169

    cv
    Member

    “Wear a fake Rolex that cost $100 and that looks real and like it cost $40,000. Then you’ll make the rich guy with the real watch angry”

    **

    And why, exactly, we need to make a rich guy angry?

  • #1009170

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    I am not understanding what is big commotion over expensive Zachen in this news-papers. If There are geveirim who giving to lots and lots of tzedaka and needs a gift for self,wife, or for resale needs.

    Sincerely, A Bp Yid,

  • #1009171

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    A fake Rolex is not so good, since it is only not real diamonds so for man in jewelry business such as me, it is a big turn off to my customers.

    I apologize if my posts are not so good sound, as I speak good Yiddish, but English isn’t so good for my speaking.

    Shkoyach, a BP Yid

  • #1009172

    cantgetit
    Member

    CV: We don’t need to. But he’ll naturally be angered that his gaaividik watch that he spent a fortune on was one-upped by a cheap imitation that few can tell any difference between. Don’t wear the imitation to anger him; but be advised that’ll be his likely reaction.

  • #1009173

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    I agree with CV and wolfishmusings, if the tzedaka is given, then monies can be used with no badness.

    (B”h, Google translated has a Yiddish to English translate!)

    Signed, a BP yid

  • #1009174

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Whether buying $40,000 watches is appropriate is a good question. For someone considering buying one. Are you considering buying one? No? Then none of your business. Unless you are acting out of love for someone that you think is making a misguided error.

    So much compassion out there I see.

  • #1009175

    cv
    Member

    “CV: We don’t need to. But he’ll naturally be angered that his gaaividik watch that he spent a fortune on was one-upped by a cheap imitation that few can tell any difference between. Don’t wear the imitation to anger him; but be advised that’ll be his likely reaction”

    **

    Do you really think, that rich people have no clue cheap imitations exist? And if they know and don’t buy these imitations, most likely they have a reason for it and they will not have the reaction you predict.

  • #1009176

    cantgetit
    Member

    CV: What IS the reason? Gaaiva.

  • #1009177

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    WIY,

    Are you fabulously wealthy? If not, al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia limkokmo.

    As others have pointed out, there is nothing inherently assur about buying expensive luxuries. Is it praiseworthy for someone, even if wealthy, to live a relatively simple life? Will it reduce jealousy, and possibly leave more money available for more important things? I would agree that the answer to these questions is “yes”.

    I don’t think, though, that someone should be degraded or looked down upon for not acting with what is essentially a midas chassidus.

  • #1009178

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    cnatgetit – it’s only gaaiva if there’s an assumption that $40,000 is better than a cheaper one, and having money is better than having no money.

    Obviously, we all know, that Hashem gives everyone the perfect amount of money.

    Therefore, there is no gaava to the informed individual.

  • #1009179

    old man
    Member

    One should always remember the rule:

    If it’s not your money, it should not be in your thoughts.

  • #1009180

    uneeq
    Member

    DY: Well said. I object the OP for a additional reason though. Many people have the money and buy the watches as an investment. Usually these type of watches especially when they have gold or diamonds, go up in value over the years. I was told that certain watches even after being used will still sell for the same value in couple of years. Many people like to diversify their assets, and this is just one of the ways to do it.

    Unless there is an issur of wearing a nice watch that I don’t know of, I think they are doing no wrong.

  • #1009181

    mewho
    Member

    i find some of the jewlry store ads obnoxious—for shalom bayis make sure to bring home a new piece of jewelry to your wife for yom tov…..what about those who cannot afford that, is the implication that without a new piece of jewelry there is no shalom bayis?

  • #1009182

    WIY
    Member

    I just think it is insensitive to most people especially post Sandy when there are 100’s of families who lost their homes or sustained huge damage to market $40,000 watches so rich guys can show off. I’m not rich I’m not poor Id say I’m upper middle class. I can’t afford a 40,000 watch and I can’t imagine any self respecting person would wear one. Its gayvah and tayvah and probably trying to poke out yenems eyes. You know if you are wearing some expensive rolex or whatever that you are making a statement. You do it anyways because you like the image and all that. Its certainly not within the guidelines of hatzneia leches im elokecha. It also brings ayin hora. Its just recently that I noticed such ads. I. the past the ads have been for more modest jewelry like chasson watches…this really raises the bar and is inappropriate. Feel free to disagree but I feel like advertising a $40,000 + watch is no different than advertising Bentleys and Rolls royces and feraris to the frum community. Is this what we are all about?

  • #1009183

    Poster
    Member

    I probably fall into the lower middle class catigory. I have no problem with the ads. In fact I think the manufacturers pay towrds the ads, not the jewelry stores themselves.

    WIY, please understand that e/o is trying to make a living,

    1) manufacturer for creating the wathc

    2) the store for selling the watch

    3) the magazine for advertising the watch

    And you care to stop it?

    You want to wear a 40,000 watch and drive a 2,000,000 car – go right ahead! I’ll continue wearing my ESQ.

  • #1009184

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    I happen to agree to WIY. Ferociously!

    I don’t know about anyone here reading these posts, but to me IMHO these ads reek of insensitivity, and the type of gashmiyus Rabbonim scream against since we were kids.

    What do you ‘frum’ posters mean ‘If he can afford it, and meets his tzedaka obligation, he’s entitled to spend his money as he wishes’???! What? On $40,000 watches?! ?”?! I don’t care how rich they are, if they are jewish & frum, they are sick (i.e. spiritually.), deeply sucked into Olam Hazeh and gashmiyus. I’m mesupik if there is an issur, I honestly don’t know, but I wonder if it goes into the violation of Kedoshim Tihiyu. But that’s all Bein Odom La’Mokom.

    Then there is the insensitivity issue. To walk proudly with a luxurios $40,000 fashion accessory among your struggling jewish brothers and sisters who can’t afford basic tuition, food for their families, or to make a simple wedding. I don’t care if he gave $1 million dollars to tzaddaka! Where’s the sensitivity to the next person? Where is the tzniyus? and where’s the Middas Anavah? Out the window…

    Parnassa? Sell it to the rich goyim, gezunterheit. Put such ads in their magazines for the wealthy. Beleive me, there’s plenty of them. But in our jewish frum papers, advertisements definitely should be strictly on something more low key, affordable and nice.

    (*exhales*)

  • #1009185

    phdmom
    Member

    WIY, how do you know that the motivations behind someone wearing that watch? i highly doubt they would spend that kind of money to “poke out yenem’s eyes”. and how do you know if that person didnt already send at least 40,000$ to help those affected by sandy? i am barely even middle class, but i have friends who are fabulously wealthy and literally support the city. and i think that it would be disingenuous to say that there isnt just a teeny tiny bit of jealousy if you have a problem with it. and again, when you think of all the aveiros and tayvos that ppl have, is this one really so bad? and remember that if this was put in your face, then it’s a test for you, how are YOU going to respond. we all have our own nisyonos. i dont know about you, but mine are much more serious than wearing a 40,000$ watch.

  • #1009186

    phdmom
    Member

    the 40,000$ watch is just the adult’s version of a fancy toy. i’ve seen this attitude with raising children and it boggles my mind that parents seem to almost encourage their child who is jealous and wants what the rich kid has. it’s our duty as parents to teach our kids that being rich is also a nisayon, but our nisayon is to be sameach b’chelko and to have the basic emunah that Hashem gives us exactly what we need. but first, we need to teach the adults.

  • #1009187

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    phdmom wrote:

    “….when you think of all the aveiros and tayvos that ppl have, is this one really so bad? and remember that if this was put in your face, then it’s a test for you, how are YOU going to respond”

    Oh come on! That is the oldest excuse in the book for doing all the ‘little’ avairos, or to give in to ‘little’ tayvos!

    “It’s better than what other people do out there” (*rolls eyes*).

    Excuse me, but that is just pathetic! And although it is a test for me when you stick that $40,000 watch in my face, but the issue here is the WEARER of the watch! What’s HIS excuse for being insensitive to others walking around struggling to make end’s meet – which unfortunately is NOT an exaggeration). Where’s the tzniyus??

    But getting back to the ads, it doesn’t belong in our frum Magazines, newspapers.

  • #1009188

    phdmom
    Member

    @ BaalHabooze, really?? first of all, i wouldnt even recognize a fancy watch if i saw one, and dont have a concept of how much they could cost.

    EVERYONE has their tayvos, no one is exempt. and when each of us look at our laundry list of things that we need to fix, why do you feel the need to look at your neighbor and worry about the simple tayva of a wealthy person. maybe that is his test, and i’m not even convinced that he failed if he chooses to buy it. seriously, why do we have to point fingers at other people? are we done fixing ourselves, that we have to go tell someone else what he has to fix? when i think of everything that is wrong with the world, sure, there are ppl who are too materialistic, but that is far from the worst tayva. sure there are ppl who break the bank to feel the need to live up to the Kohns and that is a problem, but it’s not the rich man’s problem.

    in fact, when you think of all the Torah sources related to this, you have the halacha of giving tzedaka to the rich man to let him live according to his previous lifestyle, you have R’ Yehuda Hanassi who was known to be fabulously wealthy, and you have the idea of hiddur mitzva. for example, i know someone who got an expensive watch from his wife when he finished the daf yomi because he gets up in the wee hours of the morning and the watch was symbolic.

    i just see so much pain and suffering in the world because of so many other things. someone is who bothered by how someone else spends their money, is just making their own life miserable. stop looking at yenem, and start doing your own cheshbon hanefesh.

  • #1009189

    PBT
    Member

    Since $40,000 is about 2/3 of my NET (AFTER taxes) salary for a single year, I don’t put much stock in $40,000 watches, and I can’t begin to think of the things that someone who could afford to buy such a watch would be thinking. However, bashing the rich (someone who could afford a $40,000 watch, etc.,), or companies whose products are marketed to the rich, is not a Jewish mida. It’s a mida of classical Christianity and of some in American political circles. I’ve said before, and say again, check the Igeres HaRamban, and what he has to say as to how we “commonfolk” have to think of the rich. We have no right to be jealous, or to begrudge them their wealth. Are we also jealous of their nisyanos in everyday life? I’ve seen some very wealthy Jews, and the heartaches and burdens they often have to carry with them. And I often think of them a bit, and conclude, “Thank G-d for MY problems.”

  • #1009190

    MCP
    Member

    The advertisers (and magazines) have a right to make a parnassah just like you do.

    How rich people choose to spend their money is up to them. For all you know the guy with the $40,000 watch needs it to impress hotshot clients and along with the $40,000 he spent on the watch he also donated $400,000 to cover the tuition that you don’t pay because you are too busy ranting in the coffee room about how rich people spend their money and therefore have no time to work.

  • #1009191

    MCP
    Member

    #jealousy

  • #1009192

    What’s HIS excuse for being insensitive to others walking around struggling to make end’s meet – which unfortunately is NOT an exaggeration).

    Explain to me please what is “insensitive”. Hashem gives everyone, so we believe Hashem gave the rich man more 7 the poor man less. There should be no “sensitivity” involved on either side. I know that my house is smaller than my neighbors’. So what? This is what Hashem gave me, and I am thankful for it.

    The Tznius point is valid, but lost in our world of denier & necklines.

  • #1009193

    midwesterner
    Participant

    I just want to know what was the Yiddish word that when put in the google translator, yielded “badness.”

  • #1009194

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The goal of an advertisement is to get your attention. I think it is safe to say both the hotel and jewelery store got your attention. From the responses here, I would say that the ads created more positive than negative attention. Only the troll and his/her alter egos have an issue with the ad, everyone else is either enthusiastic or ambivalent about the ad.

  • #1009195

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    mewho:

    i find some of the jewlry store ads obnoxious—for shalom bayis make sure to bring home a new piece of jewelry to your wife for yom tov…..what about those who cannot afford that, is the implication that without a new piece of jewelry there is no shalom bayis?

    See the gemara in Shabbos (62b) that there is indeed a difference between one who can and cannot afford it.

  • #1009196

    uneeq
    Member

    There seems to be two possible issues that posters are suggesting:

    A) Frum businesses shouldn’t be advertising things that don’t fit so well with Jewish values.

    B) That people shouldn’t be buying wildly expensive things even if they have the money for it, and even if they give a lot of tzedaka

    To which I answer-

    A) A big reason for advertising, especially in jewelry and fashion, is to create an “image” of a brand or company, and not necessarily to sell the pictured item. Showing images of high priced items gives the consumer the idea that the store is high class, which leads regular consumers into their store when looking for a nice watch of any price.

    B) There’s no issur of buying expensive watches, clothing, etc. Additionally, expensive watches have an extremely high resell value (unlike the Ferrari’s that posters keep mentioning), and can also be bought for investment too. I know one person who had $1.5 million worth of watches, each one 30-40k and up, most of which were not even worn.

    C) Mind your own business.

  • #1009197

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I would sum up my position on this with the observation that someone who lived his life according to the Orchos Tzaddikim would not wear a $40,000 watch, and someone who lived according to the Orchos Tzaddikim wouldn’t rant against those who wear $40,000 watches.

  • #1009198

    cantgetit
    Member

    are we done fixing ourselves, that we have to go tell someone else what he has to fix?

    It is our duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct others.

    in fact, when you think of all the Torah sources related to this, you have the halacha of giving tzedaka to the rich man to let him live according to his previous lifestyle, you have R’ Yehuda Hanassi who was known to be fabulously wealthy, and you have the idea of hiddur mitzva.

    You gotta be kidding. 1) We would not give $40,000 tzedaka so a formerly rich man can buy the Rolex he is used to wearing. 2) Rav Yehuda Hanassi was wealthy but very far removed from ostentatious. 3) A Rolex is a “hiddur mitzvah”??? Surely you jest.

  • #1009199

    WIY
    Member

    apushatayid

    I started this thread. Dont come here accusing innocent people of being Joseph. I am not Joseph.

  • #1009200

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Who said anything about Joseph?

  • #1009201

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “It is our duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct others.”

    If there was ever a mitzva that was misused, abused, misapplied and used as an excuse to knock another person, this is it.

  • #1009202

    phdmom
    Member

    @ DaasYochid, well said.

  • #1009203

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Wit, I see your point but I have a problem points such as yours. You are making the assumption that your standard is the one to measure others against. You said you were upper middle class. To a kollel family, your lifestyle would appear just as obscene to them as the rich man’s seems to you.everything is relative

  • #1009204

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    BaalHabooze, the ads usually only go one step further. It is a cycle. The lifestyle you are speaking of doesn’t necessarily start with the ads, although it may be assisted by them.

  • #1009205

    phdmom
    Member

    @ cantgetit, if i wasnt mildly amused, i would be offended, at how you went to such lengths to apply my words and twist them to suit you.

    i would love to be a fly on the wall when someone takes upon themselves the “duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct” you.

  • #1009206

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    1) We would not give $40,000 tzedaka so a formerly rich man can buy the Rolex he is used to wearing.

    Practically speaking, no it won’t happen. But al pi halacha, we really should.

  • #1009207

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    I don’t understand all of this nonsense! Why is it a problem for a jeweler such as myself, to wear an expensive watch if we sell it to my customers also, if any customer sees if I have a fake one, he will be turned off, and think that I sell fakes!

    With all kavod, A BP Yid

  • #1009208

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    phdmom:

    “@ BaalHabooze, really?? first of all, i wouldnt even recognize a fancy watch if i saw one, and dont have a concept of how much they could cost.

    EVERYONE has their tayvos, no one is exempt. and when each of us look at our laundry list of things that we need to fix, why do you feel the need to look at your neighbor and worry about the simple tayva of a wealthy person. maybe that is his test, and i’m not even convinced that he failed if he chooses to buy it. seriously, why do we have to point fingers at other people?”

    I, in no way take these ads, nor any $40,000 watches on frum people, negatively on a PERSONAL level. And I don’t intend to fix anyone’s tayvos/chisronos, but myself. I DO take issue of others flaunting & showing off insanely expensive gashmiyus accessories/vacations in frum people’s faces, or even advertising them in our magazines. Ask any Rav, talmud chocham, tzaddik, Rebbe, and Chacham. I reinstate, I don’t know if it is an issur per se, but it certainly does not fit in within the hashkofik realm of a Torah Jew.

  • #1009209

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People are complaining about a $40,000 calling it Gashmuth. What about peoples name on a building, If thats not gashmuith, what is?

    I know its Tzdekah, so give the Tzdkah privaely no need to put your name and your whole family on the building

  • #1009210

    cantgetit
    Member

    zsdad: Absolutely correct. It is much much better to give tzedaka without having your name on the building.

  • #1009211

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    ZD,

    Unfortunately, without the name, there would be no building.

  • #1009212

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I guess its true time IS money.

  • #1009213

    dafbiyun
    Member

    Booz, question for you:I was recently in a liquor store and a young kid dropped about $2500 on the finest scotches and whisky. He proudly stated that only the best was good enough when his friends came over to him for shabbos.(he also rolled his eyes when he saw me buying a Glenlivet 15 year for a mere 50 bucks). Do you agree that this is as bad as the $40,000.00 watch?(at least you get to keep the watch)

  • #1009214

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    Earlier post quote: ” idon’t understand all of this nonsense! Why is it a problem for a jeweler such as myself, to wear an expensive watch if we sell it to my customers also, if any customer sees if I have a fake one, he will be turned off, and think that I sell fakes!

    With all kavod, A BP Yid”

    To above posters, once again, if one is in the business of liquor he should only stock cheap things!? If one sells watched should he only stock watches that give him little revenue! And the tzedaka names on buildings can also be for advertisement if ones name is an advertisement for company (if his name is name of company).

    Signed A BP yid

  • #1009215

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    C’mon, dafbiyun, you can’t compare a necessity to a luxury. 🙂

  • #1009216

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Is one obligated to buy a 1992 Ford Grand Torino station wagon or is it “against the torah” to buy a brand new Lexus or at least a brand new Toyota Camry.

  • #1009217

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    L and O and L to you, Daas Yochid

  • #1009218

    dafbiyun
    Member

    I always wondered whether there might be an issur for women to wear super luxury items on Shabbos. While we allow women to wear jewlery nowdays( a seperate discussion) nevertheless we know that an “ir shel zahav” which was made from so much gold that chazal determined that its purpose was primarily to flaunt one’s wealth rather than to look enhance one’s appearance is aussur.Could a 40,000.00 watch fall under the same issur?

    On the other hand , men should remember that they are required to buy jewlery for their wives in line with their means, particularly before each yom tov.

  • #1009219

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    dafbiyun: Hey, not fair, you know booze is my soft spot. You need to ask your LOR on that for an unbiased psak

  • #1009220

    WIY
    Member

    zahavasdad

    There are many things that are assur depending on your intentions. Are you buying a lexus because you can afford it? Or is a camry much more in line with your finances but you want to project an image that you are wealthy which is gaivah. Even if you are wealthy, if you are buying the car to show off and to make others jealous it is assur. Its a bad thing to do and will likely bring an ayin hara. Yknow some people don’t get it that EVERYTHING YOU DO has to be weighed under the guise of Torah and Torah Hashkafah. Hello, even regarding going to the bathroom there are simanim in shulchon aruch about how and what to do and where and we make a bracha after.

    Our money is a gift from Hashem. It is also a nisayon if you have too little or too much. A person has to realize that getting stuck in the muck of gashmiyus brings you down. If you wear a $40,000 watch that means you are invested in gashmiyus. A person who gets a high out of luxuries and puts importance into that will not easily get a high out of doing mitzvos and learning a daf gemarah. They are contradictions. Pursuit of luxuries get in the way of pursuit of ruchniyus. You really can’t have both. A person can only have one priority. Whatever he prioritizes will automatically cause other things to be less important to him.

  • #1009221

    dafbiyun
    Member

    On the contrary, you are the perfect person to adress the question. here is the analogy: all women have a weak spot for jewlery . The question is should she spend $40,000.00 on a watch even if she can afford it or try to live with a $5,000 watch … which can certaily be beautiful.Same with scotch. You know that after reaching $100 a bottle the taste difference becomes neglible(IMHO)and its really just a status symbol( are those guys who are putting out bottles of J.Walker blue at a kiddush reallly doing so to be mehana the oilem or for their own kovod?) So really, isn’t buying $350 bottles sort of the same thing as buying absurdly expensive jewlery?

  • #1009222

    BaalHabooze
    Participant

    Again, for an unbiased psak, you ask your LOR. That’s what I do. That is my final answer.

  • #1009223

    uneeq
    Member

    DafBiyun: No self-respecting alcoholic would refer to Blue Label as the gold standard of scotch. It is an overpriced blend of junk whiskies that my father serves to all the fake Meivinim.

  • #1009224

    dafbiyun
    Member

    to those who are so sure that putting ones name on a building is wrong: while this may seem logical, the fact is many pokim state that one should allow his name to be placed on a donated item so that others will do the same.

  • #1009225

    dafbiyun
    Member

    uneeq- that is exactly why i chose blue as my example it is obviously a rookie’s scotch which no respectable drinker would go near. ( by the way does anyone know if there is anywhere you can still find balvinie 15? they seem to have stopped production.)

  • #1009226

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    @all of the above

    10) Chivas Regal Royal Salute, 50 years old.

    Price: $10,000

    The Chivas Regal 50-year Royal Salute is released in 2003 as a special edition to celebrate Queen Elizabeth II 50 years on the throne (coronation day in 1953). Each bottle features a hand-engraved 24-carat gold plaque. There were only 255 bottles in the world.

    9) The Macallan 1939, 40 years old.

    Price $10,125

    First bottled in 1979, this peaty and powerful whisky that comes with dried fruit and sweet toffee flavors was re-bottled in 2002, and added to McCallan’s Fine and Rare line.

    8) Glenfarclas 1955, 50 years old.

    Price: $10,878

    This whisky, bottled in 2005 exactly fifty years to the day after it was distilled, was hand-picked by George S. Grant to celebrate the birth of his ancestor, John Grant, who bought the Glenfarclas distillery back in 1865. The entire 110 bottles sold out even before this whisky was released.

    7) Dalmore 50 Year Old Decanter

    Price: $11,000

    Bottled in 1978 into just sixty crystal decanters. Reputably one of the best 50 year old whisky ever made, and a personal favorite of many rich families in the world.

    6) The Macallan 55 Year Old Lalique Crystal Decanter

    Price: $12,500

    A celebration between two great nations and one of the finest creative collaborations between Scotland and France, The Macallan 55 Years old Lalique is bottled in 1910 in a perfume bottle designed by Rene Lalique. Worldwide, only 420 decanters were released, with only one hundred available in the United States.

    5) Glenfiddich 1937

    Price: $20,000

    64 year old Glenfiddich, widely regarded as the oldest bottle of whisky in the world. This Glenfiddich’s 1937 Rare Collection whisky had only one bottle ever produced, with the single bottle sold at a 2006 auction.

    4) The Dalmore 62 Single Hiland Malt Scotch

    Price: $58,000

    One of the only twelve bottles produced in 1943. The whisky was purchased for $58,000 at the Pennyhill Park Hotel in Surrey, where the anonymous buyer reportedly share it with five of his lucky friends.

    3) The Macallan 1926 Fine and Rare

    Price: $75,000

    It is rumored that a South Korean businessman paid $75,000 in 2005 for the chance to own a bottle of this scotch, whose flavor is described as dry and concentrated. The rumor is later confirmed by Macallan themselves.

    2) Dalmore 64 Trinitas

    Price: $160,100

    Trinitas is named because there are only three bottles of this whisky been made. This whisky is a blend of rare stocks, containing spirits dating from 1868, 1878, 1926 and 1939. This is the first scotch to sell for six figures.

    1) Macallan 64 Year Old in Lalique

    Price: $460,000

    And here it is, the most expensive scotch in the world: The Macallan 64 Year Old in Lalique! The scotch was sold for $460,000 at an auction at Sotheby’s, New York on November 2010, breaking the record for the most expensive whisky ever sold, and claiming the title of world’s most expensive scotch.

    The special decanter was designed and created by famed French designer Lalique, and contains 1.5 litres of the rare “The Macallan” whisky. The special decanter, itself, is crafted with a unique “cire perdue”, or “lost wax” method.

  • #1009228

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    What was that in the original Yiddish?

  • #1009229

    dafbiyun
    Member

    good news for booze… it seems none of the above were made using sherry casks:)

  • #1009230

    interjection
    Participant

    “It is our duty as Jews to spiritually help and correct others.”

    If there was ever a mitzva that was misused, abused, misapplied and used as an excuse to knock another person, this is it.

    +100

  • #1009231

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    To Dy, everyone understands the language of schnapps 🙂

  • #1009232

    aurora77
    Participant

    You crack me up, aHeiligeYid! 🙂

  • #1009234

    shinina
    Member

    I dont have money, but if someone does and wants to use it for tanugai haolam hazeh, that’s there business, and if someone wants to make money off of there misuse of there good fortune, can u blame them.

  • #1009235

    phdmom
    Member

    We ALL use whatever money we have for tanugei olam haba, but each according to their means (hopefully). I personally believe that we are all too megusham, and that is not the life that Hashem wants us to lead. when there is so much wrong going on in the world, so so many actual aveiros and lack of middos, that this issue which comes down to sensitivity, prioritizing etc is petty and smacks of jealousy.

  • #1009236

    chalilavchas
    Member

    I got curious and went on the Rolex website and checked for authorized dealers in New York. The Rolex authorized dealers close to the frum neighborhoods (NYC, Long Island) are not familiar or frum sounding names.

    For instance, the only authorized dealer in Brooklyn is a store, whose other location is open on Shabbos. So who are we blaming?

    ~~~

    In response to the mention of Boro Park chandeliers:

    One of my relatives living in BP has one of the grandest looking chandeliers, which was bought on Ebay for $200. Big deal.

  • #1009237

    yehudayona
    Participant

    I think it’s inappropriate for frum people to flaunt their wealth, simply because it elicits anti-semitism. Nevertheless, if it’s helpful for one’s business, I think it’s OK. So aHeiligeYid can wear an expensive watch, and someone who drives around clients can own a Lexus.

  • #1009238

    thehock
    Member

    There was a nice story in Smiling Each Day from Rabbi Twersky about a wealthy guy who is bragging to his Rebbe about how he is mistapeik b’muat and only eats hard bread and drinks water. To which the Rebbe replies (something to this effect), “From now on, I want you to eat stuffed geese and drink fine wine. Reason being, if hard bread and water are good enough for you, you’ll think stones are good enough for the pauper. But your mitzvah is to give generously to the poor, and in order to do that, you need to be eating better yourself.”

    I tend to agree with old man – someone else’s money should stay out of your mind. Yet at the same time, I think there is something about farginning that needs to be worked on. I would hope frum Yidden could walk past the luxuries owned by the rich and say, “Thank you Hashem for giving my fellow Yidden parnassah.” This is the achdus we should feel – I am happy for my brother that he is successful, and I wish more of my brothers were.

  • #1009239

    aHeiligeYid
    Member

    To yehudayona…..

    MASKIM

  • #1009240

    rebdoniel
    Member

    One doesn’t need to spend an arm and a leg to be frum.

    Clothes don’t need to be designer. Meat can and should only be eaten on Shabbos and Yom Tov, even if then. A vegetarian lifestyle is healthier and cheaper, anyways. You only need to worry about maintaining 1 set of kitchen equipment and plates, and another set for Pesach.

    I see Judaica for cheap in different places, like Closeout Connection and Amazing Savings.

    I believe that instead of wasting money on luxuries, we should give more to the needy and reprioritize.

  • #1009241

    tzaddiq
    Member

    besides the hashkafik issues above, it’s just plain a bad marketing area, to advertise in a frum publication. why cant you advertise in goyish publications that serve and are catered specifically for the rich and wealthy people. most fum people cant afford those jewlery, and those who can few will actually make the purchase. its like advertizing ferraris in a yiddish newspaper in Williamsberg…

  • #1009242

    chalilavchas
    Member

    WIY,

    The other ad was an ostentatious advertisement for a frum Jewelry business with a picture of a $40,000+ watch on it.

    It probably wasnt a Rolex, if it was advertised by a frum store. Rolex doesnt have any frum sounding dealers listed on their website. Are there $40G watches from another maker? Just curious.

  • #1009243

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Data obviously shows the advertisers that those they want to reach, read said publications so their advertisements are not out of place. It may elicit certain reactions in their non target audience (jealousy is what I am reading), but it is of no concern to them.

    “why cant you advertise in goyish publications that serve and are catered specifically for the rich and wealthy people.”

    Not sure how many non jewish rich and wealthy are interested in spending Pesach in the Swiss Alps or in buying the latest and greatest shtreimel or sheitel, even if it is top of the line at 4 grand a pop and 30% off.

  • #1009244

    WIY
    Member

    chalilavchas

    Yes there are many brands with such watches. There are watches that cost over $1,000,000.

  • #1009245

    tzaddiq
    Member

    apushatayid – you know i was refering specifically to jewlery when i posted that.

  • #1009246

    rebdoniel
    Member

    The Shevet Yehuda specifically says that Jewish flaunting of wealth was a cause of some of the persecutions in Spain, at a time when the goyim were economically depressed.

    AFAIK, there are sadly tons of acheinu bnei yisroel eating in soup kitchens, schnorring, and desperate for a job. We need vocational training and parnassa, not shtus like Rolexes.

  • #1009247

    daf – You can get Balvenie 15 here in England still… They keep the good stuff here in the U of K and send out the rest to the US and pass it off as quality to gullible Americans who think they know better…

  • #1009248

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, now that jewelry is a non advertisable item in a jewish publication whats next on your hit list? Should travel agencies no longer advertise fares to Eretz Yisrael because many cant afford to fly? Perhaps the magazines should not be sold because some cant afford a subscription. Stop your petty jealousy and grow up.

  • #1009249

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    APY,

    C’mon, that’s not fair. Although I disagree, what the OP was complaining about is ostentatious, over-the-top luxury. You can’t compare that to a trip to E.Y.

  • #1009250

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    $40,000 would support a Torah family for two years. Where’s the heter to spend it on a watch?

  • #1009251

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    LJ,

    What’s the issur?

  • #1009252

    shinina
    Member

    LJ its there money,they dont need a heter. Of course giving it to tzdaka would be the righteous thing to do, but evreytime u buy something a little too expensive u DONT need a heter.

  • #1009253

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    $40,000 would support a Torah family for two years. Where’s the heter to spend it on a watch?

    By that argument where is the Heter to Eat Sushi, Drink Cabarot Soveignon and drive a New Car.

    One could eat bread and water and give the “excess” money to a torah family. Chicken, Kedem Concord Grape and a 1992 Ford Wagon are just fine

  • #1009254

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the late 19th century in the Shtels, people were poor and starving and povery began to get glorified by many Rabbaim. Unfortunatly gloryfing povery doesnt help you eat and many jews emigrated to america.

    Remember the nickname for america was “de Goldena Medina”

  • #1009255

    Once you have given maaser, your money is yours to do as you wish. It says a lot for the prosperity of our communities if advertisers look to our publications to advertise such luxurious items.

    We all know that sadly, there are moisdos and “poor” who just waste tzedoko money or really have no right whatsoever to collect it. Better to spend $150 for a bottle of whisky for Shabbos than to give even 15 cents to someone who is basically picking others’ pockets to line his own pocket.

    Half the parnosso crisis in the community is a matter of half the people who cry about wanting parnosso being too lazy or hidebound to do anything about it. Three times I “gave someone a break” – three times it left me almost broke because the three heiliger Yidden acted as if they were entitled to money without working.

  • #1009256

    Poverty was not “glorified by the rabbonim.” It was considered a test just as today’s wealth is a test. You get your knowledge of Jewish history from Fiddler on the Roof.

  • #1009257

    It should also be noted that the ad for the watch is not there davka to get people to spend that kind of money on a watch. If the advertiser is the one I think it is, that store is upscale, but has plenty of items that are affordable for special occasions (ie chassune, vort).

    First of all, the watch manufacturer picks up some of the cost of that ad, saving the owner of the store money. Then, the watch creates an image for the store by letting potential customers know that the store is respected enough to carry such watches.

  • #1009258

    just me
    Participant

    So well said DaasYochid!

    My thought about it are:1)If someone earned the money honestly and didn’t ask me to subsidize his expensive watch (or whatever bauble)I don’t care. 2)I personally wouldn’t don’t understand the need of someone to buy such high end thing unless it is much better than a lower end item i.e. lasts much longer, better resale value, more comfortable. 3)People should look at their own budgets and pockets and not someone else’s.

    Oh, and more ahavas Yisroel and less jealousy would make Moshiach come faster, I think.

  • #1009259

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    Walfishmusings, you are 100% wrong. If you ever opened up a Mussar Sefer in your life you will discover that our sages were vehemently against ostentatios way of life. Chazal warned us to live a simple life and not be oisek in Taanugei Oilam Hazeh.

  • #1009260

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Again, once someone is meeting their tzedaka obligations (and certainly once they hit the 20% mark), they are free to spend the rest of their money as they see fit, without any guilt trips.

    If a guy gives $200,000 of his million dollar salary to tzedaka, I certainly don’t begrudge him a $40,000 watch, an expensive car, or anything else he can afford.

    The Wolf

  • #1009261

    Wisey
    Participant

    “Once one fulfills his requirement of tzedakah he can spend his money however he likes”

    What planet do you come from? Don’t you know about all the suffering yidden out there? How can you spend so much on garbage when there are people going through yissurim every day? Besides the fact that one of the fundamentals of judaism is that we are only put in this world to prepare ourselves for the next world. How can you look at giving a tenth to tzeddakah as an obligation that needs to be discharged?

  • #1009262

    Wisey
    Participant

    If anyone claims that there is a purpose to overenjoyment in Olam Hazeh, I can bring proofs from any source you want that such a belief is pure garbage.

  • #1009263

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    Wolfishmusings , of coarse Chazal did not think the way you think. Again, if you ever follow our sages and see what THEY have to say about living an ostentatious life, then you would agree. But obviously you fail to adhere to what they have to say and rather listen to your yetzer hora, then of coarse you find nothing wrong with it. So very sad

  • #1009264

    That’s the halacha. Aser te’aser, and nothing over chomesh.

    Showing off is not the Jewish way either, but when I see administrators of tzedoko funds driving cars I’d never waste money on and yes, they and their wives wearing watches I’d never waste money to wear, I’d rather reinvest every cent I don’t need after maaser into my business than into the organized tzedoko business. You don’t get back what you give to these crooks, because there is no brocho in keeping their shtick going from father to son to grandson. Far too many schnorrerlach (now called Directors of Development) keep 50%, and there are other expenses down the line before a moisad or a legitimate oni or choileh sees a penny.

    I would much rather buy myself a 40,000$ watch, especially if it is an investment (which I doubt) than contribute one penny to buy a fundraiser a 60,000$ Lexus.

    When I see third-generation welfare families in klal Yisroel, I don’t want to support them anymore than I want to support their non-Jewish counterparts (well, that’s why I am not in the US anymore, but that’s beside the point). When people think collecting from honest working people and businessmen to pay for defending convicted felons is tzedoko, I fully understand where, chalila, reform and their misinterpretations of the neviim came from. I also think of phrases like “parois Bashan” when I see how the wives and daughters of those who live on donated funds dress and conduct themselves.

    When I have money to spare over maaser that I don’t need to expand my business, put away for retirement, or yes, enjoy an occasional bottle of $200 whisky or wine and a nice yearly vacation, it will go to support medical research and not professional schnorrers. I have seen too much, and I don’t even know sometimes why I bother staying frum with all the corruption I’ve seen. I know of only one tzedoko in all of EY – Ezra laMarpeh – that is 100% trustworthy, not paying administrators for nonsense, and leshem Shamayim. (A few others do a good job, but they have too many salaries to pay and/or are known to not be above laundering money.)

    I have a feeling that some posters here don’t know what it is to start and run a business from scratch, and they, like many tzedoko administrators, have no problem demanding that those who do succeed share the wealth at disproportionate rates. I have always had problems with well-meaning bochurim who volunteer for tzedokos, but do not understand that I can’t give them $2 for every $1 I earn. I once volunteered alongside a group like this, and I quickly found out some of the problem was that they were falling for ludicrous and untrue sob stories from professional abusers and not checking with legitimate recipients to see what they really needed, so of course they ran out of funds fast.

    Those who really succeed honestly tend to be the ones who are careful in giving as well as not showy. Those who are jealous of them call them kamtzanim and all kinds of other names. I will be proud when someone refers to me as a kamtzan and tells his fellow schnorrerlach not to waste their time with me.

  • #1009265

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    I think it’s a lack of extreme sensitivity to wear a $40.000 watch. It’s downright assur, though, to berate someone simply for disagreeing with that idea.

    Wolf, I don’t know how the moderators let these nasty, undeserved attacks against you through.

  • #1009266

    GeshmakMan
    Member

    If “frum” websites allows non-stop bashing and Loshon Hora on their websites, why shouldn’t a “frum” magazine be allowed to advertise a $40,000 watch???

  • #1009267

    By the way, few owners of 40,000 dollar watches, other than gangsters for whom every day they put on their watch can be their last with an arm to wear it on and eyes to see the dial, wear them every day to show them off.

    Some collect watches, and only take that watch out for a very special occasion. Some of those watches appreciate in value years down the road, so they make a nice yerusha and yes, even can be sold or donated for resale for tzedoko or borrowed against to support a learning child. (I don’t think they’re worth it as a plain investment unless someone truly enjoys having such a watch.)

  • #1009268

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, I don’t know how the moderators let these nasty, undeserved attacks against you through.

    I don’t know about the moderators, but I can say this about the posters: there is a general atmosphere here that if you’re perceived as “less frum” than your disputant, you are free to say whatever you want, attribute whatever motives to him/her that you want and either imply or outright insult your disputant.

    That is what is truly sad here.

    The Wolf

  • #1009269

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Wolf,

    That’s true (although it might very well be that this “general atmosphere”atmosphere is in large part generated by one person posting under many sn).

    It’s unfortunately true on occasion, that someone perceived as “more frum” is treated the same way (not by you).

    BTW, did you get a chance to look up the sources I quoted on Hilchos LH?

  • #1009270

    Wisey
    Participant

    See the thread called

    “Some notes about what it means to be truly poor… (62 posts)”

  • #1009271

    ¡RebYidd23!
    Participant

    Here’s what’s sick: An ad used a picture of two swans to symbolize marriage but they were the same swan!

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