A Theory Made of Water Vapor

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee A Theory Made of Water Vapor

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 96 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #589882

    feivel
    Participant

    from the Associated Press:

    “When scientists set out to trace the roots of human laughter, some chimps and gorillas were just tickled to help. Literally.

    That’s how researchers made a variety of apes and some human babies laugh. After analyzing the sounds, they concluded that people and great apes inherited laughter from a shared ancestor that lived more than 10 million years ago.

    Experts praised the work. It gives very strong evidence that ape and human laughter are related through evolution, said Frans de Waal of the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University in Atlanta.”

    this is not an exception

    this is a very typical case of the most incredible conclusions that evolutionists derive from a fragment of “information” that they blow up to gigantic proportions with nothing but air based on any kind of assumptions and imagination they wish this is very typical

    #647643

    mepal
    Member

    Oh my gosh! You gotta be kidding!

    #647644

    very typical 😛

    [incidentally, i have to say that i happen to have watched a bonobo monkey being tickled… the laughter & wriggling was admittedly quite human-like.]

    #647645

    i hope my previous comment is not perceived as pro-evolution…

    #647647

    GoldieLoxx
    Member

    u see what u want to see

    fivel i once heard that there was an insect wich could not be proven in evilution. i think it was the criket is this true??

    #647648

    feivel
    Participant

    goldie

    im sorry

    i dont know what you mean

    no creature can be proven to have been created by evolution

    #647649

    A600KiloBear
    Participant

    BS”D

    And what of certain creatures who I have seen, such as Ahmadinejad YMS, who look like proofs for REVERSE evolution from a higher species to a lower? :)))))))

    #647650

    GoldieLoxx
    Member

    lol fivel

    what i meant was that i heard that there was a creature the evolutionists could not explain. i think it was the criket

    #647651

    Jewess
    Member

    While on the topic of evolution, and NO, I DO NOT BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION, (excuse my yelling please), I’ve always wondered, how do you explain all the scientific evidence, the fossils and bones and sedimentary rocks…Was there a world before our world? I know that it was “tohu vavohu” empty and without form, but were there creatures in that (proposed) era? Was there some type of world before the God created our world?

    I don’t mean to ask this out of kefirah…I really want to know so please don’t delete this post, mods…

    #647652

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    As far as I know there was literally “nothingness”

    #647653

    tzippi
    Member

    Dennis Prager recently mentioned that some English scientists put a bunch of monkeys in a room with a bunch of typewriters to see what would happen. What happened was, they all relieved themselves on the typewriters.

    #647654

    feivel
    Participant

    Jewess

    this would requre a VERY lengthy answer which i dont intend to do at this time

    this was covered extensively in previous threads

    you can try checking my profile, if they didnt delete old posts you should be able to find something

    the “scientific evidence” is no evidence at all. as a matter of fact the complete lack of any gradual change from one species to another in the fossil record is a huge problem for the atheists. today the upper echelon of atheists have given up on darwin and proposed equally ridiculous “theories” to account for the big fossil problem

    #647655

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I had once heard in the name of the Chassam Sofer (might have been the Chazon Ish, occasionally I’d mix them up, but I’m 98% sure it was the Chassam Sofer) that things like fossels and carbon dating (which itself is only a theory) were only placed here to fool those who want to be fooled.

    Avraham Avinu was able to look at this world and see that it obviously had a creator. R’ Akiva was able to see the niflaos haboreh and take the correct mussar from it.

    Hashem looked into the Torah and created the world. The same way that the rasha will be capable of using the Torah to justify his evil behavior, likewise the fool will find proof of his foolish beliefs in the world.

    #647656

    an open book
    Participant

    jewess: i’m sorry i don’t know where this is from, but i think there is one explanation that each day of creation could have been a thousand years for all we know, since a thousand years is like a day to G-d, who is not bound by time. and during this period when the world was in existence but before it was complete, animals could have lived and died out, leaving their bones as fossils.

    another possibility i’ve heard is that fossils are the bones of the first generations of people (between adam and noach), who may have been much taller/bigger than people today. and the waters of the mabul may have warped their bones so they don’t really fit together as human skeletons anymore.

    i don’t know if i got everything exactly right since it’s been a while since i heard this, and i can’t remember where. but whether one or neither explanation actually happened, it does show that there are possible explanations for what happened, even if we don’t know exactly what it was.

    #647657

    feivel
    Participant

    jaymatt

    your answer is certainly the correct one

    but actually, logically and scientifically speaking evolution is as ridiculous as any possible theory you could come up with. it isnt even necessary to bring Torah concepts to refute it

    for what does the “theory” of evolution propose in its essence:

    there was some rocks, containing iron, sulfur, and some other dead chemicals, water and air. these inert, unintelligent materials, spontaneously combined over time, with no guidance, nothing directing them, by blind chance, into you and me, with our consciousness, ability to think and reason, to feel, to communicate with all the almost infinite, complex wisdom of our bodies, all parts cooperating cunningly and perfectly with endless feedback loops and in concert with all the other remarkably diverse parts of the world, insects animals plants, the sun, the wind, to sustain us in life.

    i could go on for weeks, but thats enough

    just spend a few minutes thinking about it

    CAN YOU THINK OF ANYTHING MORE TOTALLY ABSURD THAN THAT?

    thats just the ridiculousness of evolution in a nutshell

    the details of the proposed mechanisms of evolution are just as absurd

    #647658

    Jewess
    Member

    Feivel, thanks. I looked into your profile, but I wouldn’t know where to start…

    JayMatt, thank you. That is a nice explanation and probably one that is very easy for somebody with “emunah peshutah” to swallow), but I think that it would be a hard one for individuals struggling with issues such as these, to accept. With all due respect to these great Rabbis, and I’m 100% sure that they know what they are saying, it’s very strong words for somebody who WANTS to believe in the Torah’s way, but is having question…I truly wish I could just accept it all and I refuse to believe in anything but the creation of the world, I would just like to understand how to break down what I learned in an Earth Science class and the Jewish perspective on it.

    An open book, I like that answer and that is something that makes sense. The scientific evidence is so convincing and that is an answer that includes the truth about the creation, while also including the evidence that we are given by scientists. Thank you. I like the idea of the mabul water deteriorating the fossils and bones. I also really like the possibility that the six days of creation may have really been years. Excellent answer!…Thank you so much!! You have helped me a lot!

    Thanks YWN…

    #647659

    feivel
    Participant

    Jewess

    look at the thread called “Inspiring Quotes”

    follow my posts

    start with page 2

    #647660

    Jewess
    Member

    Feivel, my question was more about the timing of the world, than about evolution in itself. I never believed in evolution, but I did not know the Jewish perspective on the fossils and rocks…not about the creation of man…Thank you.

    #647661

    an open book
    Participant

    jewess: no problem. i’m glad that it was clear and that i could help 🙂

    just to make it clear, i was answering what jewess was asking, about the fossils. nothing about evolution.

    #647663

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Jewess, there are a lot of explanations that I’ve heard, including JayMatt’s.

    Another explanation I heard was that there were previous worlds that this world was built on. So dinosaurs (for example) may have lived then.

    To me, looking at the intricacies of how life works and how interconnected everything is (the butterfly effect), I cannot picture how anyone could say “well, it just happened.” Also, even if evolution were true (and I am not saying it is at all), no one talks about where the atoms came from to bounce together to form things. Someone still had to establish the material, as we cannot create matter. To me, this proves a divine being more than anything.

    Nothing in science disproves G-d in any way. Evolution (and not necessarily the way the scientists try to claim) could have happened if Hashem wanted it to. Whether he did or not is a different question.

    #647664

    .

    jewess and others:

    look at it this way: if, theoretically and for the purpose of this discussion, adam had died the day he was created, and scientists had dug up his bones years later, how would they have figured his age? they would have said he was a grown man, i don’t know: 20, 30, 40 years old… when in reality he would have been a day old.

    another example: stars are millions of lightyears away, which means that the light we see from stars is technically ancient light. they constantly reflect light towards us, but we don’t see it in ‘real time’ – we see light that’s supposedly millions of years old. to reconcile that to our knowledge of the *actual* age of the world, we have to realize that the stars *and the light* were created less than 6000 years ago.

    in the beginning of the world, aged things were created. perhaps fossils are included in this.

    i hope i’m speaking clearly here and that this helps y’all!

    #647665

    onlyemes
    Member

    I suggest looking up an Introduction to Evolutionary Biology and reading it carefully. In it are relatively simple explanations to the misunderstandings prevalent on this subject. Furthermore, like all scientific disciplines, one cannot compare knowledge from 150 years ago (Darwin), to what is known today.

    There is nothing in the Torah that negates scientific fact, nor can there be. Science and faith do not contradict each other. Parshas Breishis is not a technical manual on “How to Create a World”, and should not be used to prove or disprove science or evolution.

    Although no one claims science knows everything, or much at all, I haven’t seen anyone refuse to board an airplane because aerodynamic theory is only scientific theory and not fact. Nor does anyone demand an old generation antibiotic that doesn’t work anymore due to resistance developed by evolving bacteria. Accept facts when they clearly make sense.

    Speak to an evolutionary biologist, read the readings, and then draw conclusions. Minimal knowledge on a subject is not a good recipe for truth.

    #647666

    Jewess
    Member

    Hi SJS, I had a hard time stomaching JayMatt’s reply. (No offense, Jay Matt…it’s me, not what you wrote…I like to believe that God wants the best to come out of us,and not that He is there to prove that we are bad or fools…but that’s a whole ‘nother thread…)

    I always wondered if there was another world, but I know that God created the world from nothing. The dinasaur bones could be bones of something else and just reconstructed the way that scientists’ imagination led them…I like AOB’s answer, becuase if things were decayed in the Mabool, then they may seem older…and I never believed the exact years that scientists gave, anyways. I also liked the idea that one day is a thousand years in God’s time and I remember hearing that concept previously, I just never put it together with the six days of creation. These possibilities make sense, scientifically.

    The concept of the Big Bang, and/or no divine being is something that I don’t understand how people could accept either…and evolution could be proven wrong when it says that God created man “betzelem elokim”, something that an animal would not have…so if we believe in God and in the Torah, we can’t possibly believe in Evolution.

    #647667

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    The idea that the RBSH deliberately places things which have no purpose only to mislead or be machshil people is not very satisfying.

    Possibly there could be remnants of other worlds before us (Tiferes Yisroel).

    Also, R. Nosson Slifkin has books on reconciling this very difficult issue, but they are controversial.

    #647668

    bpt
    Participant

    I did not hear about the cricket, but along the same lines, I read that, technically speaking, the bumblebee and moth should not be able to fly. Aerodynamically, their bodies should not be able to stay afloat, let alone move thru the skies.

    #647669

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    look at it this way: if, theoretically and for the purpose of this discussion, adam had died the day he was created, and scientists had dug up his bones years later, how would they have figured his age? they would have said he was a grown man, i don’t know: 20, 30, 40 years old… when in reality he would have been a day old.

    Ah, yes. Of course, that theory is just as valid as Last-Thursdayism.

    The Wolf

    #647670

    feivel
    Participant

    Hashem created a mature world, with animals, plants, oil, iron, coal, diamonds, and stars. its not a theory.

    The Feivel

    #647671

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I read that, technically speaking, the bumblebee and moth should not be able to fly. Aerodynamically, their bodies should not be able to stay afloat, let alone move thru the skies.

    How a bumblebee flies:

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_a_bumble_bee_fly

    How a moth flies:

    http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4743029_a-moth-fly.html

    Google is your friend.

    The Wolf

    #647672

    feivel
    Participant

    “Evolution is fact”

    only if you worship Scientism as your avodah zorah

    it is scientifically absurd and persists only because the upper levels of liberal academia need it to, and because the general masses have not learned to think critically.

    #647673

    bpt
    Participant

    The other posters basically summed it up, but I want to add one point, to address your comment RE correlating what you learnt in earth science with what you know / believe to be true from the torah perspective.

    #647674

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Jewess, there really isn’t a conflict between the possibility of evolution and Judaism. There was a thread a while back that discussed it, but I think it veered off into a lot of attacks.

    I personally do not believe that dinosaur bones are anything other than a dinosaur. There are too many of the same skeletal patterns that have been found IMHO to be that. But, there is no problem with dinosaurs having existed. They could have only existed during creation. They could have been remnants of a past world. Or they could have just been bones that Hashem put in the world. I’m tempted to beleive one of the first two though…

    I found learning the Ramban in Bereishis very interesting – it kind of shows how what the ancient people called the four elements (earth air fire and water) kind of was how Hashem created the world. We’ll never understand nature entirely, but it sure is interesting to learn!

    Onlyemes, I don’t think anyone denies micro-evolution. But macro-evolution is a bit different.

    #647675

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Feivel, when Hashem created the world, couldnt He have developed the stars for example on that day? Otherwise, why did he need a “day” to do something he could accomplish right away? Couldnt Hashem have chosen to “age” the stars before moving on to the next day?

    #647676

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    it is scientifically absurd and persists only because the upper levels of liberal academia need it to, and because the general masses have not learned to think critically.

    Can you really say that with a straight face?????

    The Wolf

    #647677

    feivel
    Participant

    onlyemes

    your 2 examples have zero to due with your proposed suggestion as to why people should accept evolution as reasonable. you need some study yourself, you need to learn metascience, or the philosophy of science. science is a continuum. on one end are repeatable, observable phenomena, on which technology (your examples) are based.

    way over, a million miles away from this, on the other end of the continuum, is “deep theory” which is based on assumptions and speculation.

    #647678

    000646
    Participant

    Feivel,

    You said “it is scientifically absurd and persists only because the upper levels of liberal academia need it to, and because the general masses have not learned to think critically.

    I Am to busy to waste my time arguing evolution with you. However i do have one question i would like you to answer: Have you ever studied the theory of evolution in depth?

    ***EDIITED*** comment deleted. please refrain from making disaraging comments. YW Moderator-72

    Please answer honestly.

    #647679

    proud tatty
    Member

    These awful debates have been here before and have been shut down. I’d just like to say one thing to all of you before they shut this thread.

    Fact: There is contradiction between the theory of evolution and how the Torah transcribes the creation.

    Fact: If you want to reconcile the above, your view of one of the two needs to be adjusted.

    Fact: You can see a lot about a person if he decides to turn his back on the Torah of his ancestors (by turning things into allegories and lav davkas) in favor of what the current scientists have to say.

    Fact: You can see what type of “Rabbi” a person is if he falls into the latter category above.

    #647680

    Bemused
    Participant

    646-

    I think Feivel has demonstrated elsewhere that his statements are quite well researched.

    #647681

    proud tatty-

    Well put.

    I don’t know all of the evolutionists arguments, nor do I know their Torah-centric refutations to the extent that I would be comfortable debating them.

    I also don’t think it would be right to be a “Wiki Warrior” and go scrambling for sites that I could then cherry-pick for those that support my point of view.

    I will add the following two points:

    1) Are there any rabonim, roshei yeshiva, poskim etc. who support the evolutionary upteitch of the Torah? (meaning well-known and accepted by the oilam, not individuals who may have the title of “Rabbi”)

    2) The point of view that says “then how do you explain…” reminds me of how Elisha ben Avuha went off the derech to the extent that he became Achair. There are questions about how the Holocaust could have been allowed to happen, too. Sometimes we just don’t know all of the answers.

    #647682

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    proud tatty, I’m not sure if you include me in your range of “facts” but I’m curious:

    1) Do you acknowledge microevolution as a fact?

    2) If you do, why isn’t it plausible for Hashem to use this on a macro level to create the world?

    #647683

    feivel
    Participant

    zero

    i have a B.S in biology and have studied evolution extensively. i continued my studies in evolution after graduation trying to understand how such smart people could fool themselves so thoroughly. this was all before i became religious. i have no objection to evolution on religious grounds. my only objections are on logical grounds.

    #647685

    proud tatty
    Member

    PY:

    The idea that the RBSH deliberately places things which have no purpose only to mislead or be machshil people is not very satisfying.

    Neither is the thought that his Torah (or parts there of) are merely allegorical. Look at the Rashi in breishis on Na’aseh Adam. Hashem in his torah puts things there so that those who choose to deny will see proofs for their denial. Why not in the world as well?

    All you have done is prove you don’t know G-d.

    SJS:

    1) Do you acknowledge microevolution as a fact?

    I don’t know the slightest thing about it. Since I know that evolution is against the Torah I do not choose to learn about it. (not saying anything about microevolution, just that I shun the entire topic as a whole)

    onlysheker:

    Evolution is fact. The opponents of this reality have not done their homework seriously.

    The Torah is emes. That is fact. Opponents of THIS reality have not done their homework seriously.

    Please do us all a favor and change your screenname.

    Minimal knowledge on a subject is not a good recipe for truth.

    Why do I get the impression that minimal knowledge is exactly the amount of Torah that you know. Kind of easy to push Torah aside when you don’t know about it, huh?

    #647687

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Plagarism isn’t nice. 😉 Bogen made this exact same post six months ago:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/evolution-total-rubbish-because#post-11226

    Here was my response to it (just simply replace “Bogen” with “Joseph”):

    #

    Oy, where to start. Bogen, your post is full of fallacies:

    Let’s start at the top:

    Evolution is just a theory, not a fact. (And a false theory, at that.)

    This assertion shows that you don’t understand how the term “theory” is applied to science. Gravity, for example, is also a “theory.” Please understand what a theory is (in terms of science) before throwing this out.

    Past evidence for evolution has been overturned. In the past, major scientific revolutions have overturned theories that were at the time considered factual.

    This statement is absolutely correct. But so what? In many other areas of science, theories that were later proven wrong were thrown out, but that doesn’t invalidate the latest findings. For example, originally before germ theory was developed, there were other theories to explain the spread of some diseases. The fact that earlier theories were overturned does not invalidate germ theory. Likewise, the fact that earlier evolutionary theories were overturned does not mean that the latest ones are invalid.

    In the past there have been scientific hoaxes regarding evolution, such as the Piltdown Man forgery.

    Again, this statement is absolutely correct. And again, so what? There has been fraud in just about every scientific field at one time or another. That does not necessarily mean that all scientific theories are false.

    Pieces of “evidence” for evolution such as Ernst Haeckel’s 19th-century embryo drawings, were not merely “scientific errors” but frauds; Biology textbooks have continued to reproduce such “evidence” long after it had been debunked.

    That’s correct, but no respectable biology book does so today. Again, the same point I made earlier applies.

    Evolution is a pseudo-religion (evolution is based on faith, supporters of evolution revere Charles Darwin as a prophet, and supporters of evolution dogmatically reject alternative suggestions out-of-hand.)

    This is a baseless claim. No one revers Darwin as a “prophet.” In addition, the very idea of scientific theory is that no idea can be rejected “out of hand.”

    Evolution is “unfalsifiable” (there is no tests that could be made that would demonstrate that the statement is false). Any “fact” can be “fitted” into the evolutionary framework. Past events of speciation are not observable and repeatable, and therefore evolution is not falsifiable. In 1976, Popper himself said that “Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory but a metaphysical research programme”.

    This is just plain false. You can do a simple Google search and find examples where evolution is claimed to have been observed and experimented with. I’m not familiar with the Popper quote you brought, but I’m confident that the vast majority of the scientific community does not agree with it.

    Mind you, I haven’t brought one scintilla of evidence that evolution is true. That’s not my goal here. My goal is simply to cut down false arguments.

    The Wolf

    #647688

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Neither is the thought that his Torah (or parts there of) are merely allegorical. Look at the Rashi in breishis on Na’aseh Adam. Hashem in his torah puts things there so that those who choose to deny will see proofs for their denial. Why not in the world as well?

    Your analogy is false. HaShem didn’t write “Na’aseh Adam” to trick people. True, some people may use it to make a mistake, but it’s still true. But you’re saying that HaShem put fossils in the earth just to fool people. I don’t buy that.

    Sorry, but I don’t believe in a “trickster god.” My God’s seal is truth. Lo ish keil vichazev, it says.

    The Wolf

    #647689

    Anonymous

    oops, that was embarrassing. I was logged onto the wrong account.

    jk

    #647690

    feivel
    Participant

    every generation has its avodah zarah, theories and isms which gain wide acceptance and popularity, and dominate the knowledge of the times. they all inevitably rot into nothingness, as does all sheker. but while they are alive their followers adhere to them as a g-d.

    the following (in bold) is a verbatim excerpt from the Feldheim translation of the Mesillas Yesharim. it was written before evolution was invented but speaks directly to it as just another fleeting member of the same of that which grows to oppose the Emes of the Ribbono Shel Olam. its old history, it only seems new because it is in our generation. some will become enamored by its charms and adhere to it, and some will stand in the camp of Hashem.

    For it is not enough that they lack the ability to see the truth, the evil staring them in the face, but they also see fit to find powerful substantiations and empirical evidence supporting their evil theories and false ideas. This is the great evil which embraces them and brings them to the pit of destruction………All this because of their being under the influence of the darkness and subject to the rule of their evil inclination.

    Ramchal

    #647691

    feivel
    Participant

    i made a mistake in the previous post, i think the Ramchal deserves to be in bold, not italics

    every generation has its avodah zarah, theories and isms which gain wide acceptance and popularity, and dominate the knowledge of the times. they all inevitably rot into nothingness, as does all sheker. but while they are alive their followers adhere to them as a g-d.

    the following (in bold) is a verbatim excerpt from the Feldheim translation of the Mesillas Yesharim. it was written before evolution was invented but speaks directly to it as just another fleeting member of the same of that which grows to oppose the Emes of the Ribbono Shel Olam. its old history, it only seems new because it is in our generation. some will become enamored by its charms and adhere to it, and some will stand in the camp of Hashem.

    For it is not enough that they lack the ability to see the truth, the evil staring them in the face, but they also see fit to find powerful substantiations and empirical evidence supporting their evil theories and false ideas. This is the great evil which embraces them and brings them to the pit of destruction………All this because of their being under the influence of the darkness and subject to the rule of their evil inclination.

    #647692

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I agree with Wolf that Naaseh Odom was not put there for no purpose other than to trick people. It was put there to teach the lesson of anivus (humility).

    Similarly, all the issurim in the Torah were put there for a reason, not to be machsil. Kol mah shebara HKBH b’olamo, lo bara davar echad levatalah. For example, the shratzim are a crucial part of the food chain, although we may not eat them. The tayvah of arayos is necessary for kiyum haolam. We don’t find anything which is totally useless other than as a stumbling block. And if takeh the RBSH did put in a stumbling block, then after meah vesrim, one could claim he was an onus. (I.e., if a miracle happened that every statue of yoshka suddenly came to life, do you think the RBSH would hold it against the masses if they thought he was telling them to convert to christianity? Ein lo ldayan ella mah sh’enav ro’os.)

    #647693

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Just to elaborate, I personally don’t believe in the theory of evolution for a different reason which is the self-assembly issue. There are so many intricate parts which are needed for even the simplest cell, and they are interdependent. One needs DNA to encode proteins, but one needs proteins to run the transcription and translation apparatus. The proteins which are needed (in the first cell) would have to have been there by coincidence, but also encoded for in the same DNA in order for the cell to have a chance of replicating and passing on its abilities. What are the chances that a random sequence of amino acids is functional (when even a single substituted amino acid can be detrimental, like I believe occurs in sickle cell anemia)? But furthermore, what are the chances that the corresponding sequence by chance happens to be found in the DNA or RNA of such a primordial cell?

    There are so many atoms and molecules which can interact in so many random ways, that even if the right ingredients are there, what is the chance they will bind in a way that is operative in even the simplest cell? Think of it this way. You want to save money on automobile factory workers. So you cleverly design a car that self-assembles. You attach magnets to special places on each component and part of the vehicle so that part 1 will automatically come together with part 2, and then with part 3, and so on. You dump the whole pile on the floor, and miraculously a car emerges. Actually, not so simple. What will direct part 1’s magnet to lock up with part 2, and not part 8 which happens to be lying next to it? There are an enormous number of permutations that could clump together, and an enormous number of orientations, most of which would yield nonsense. And that assumes that the right parts are all present. I do not think any factories have been able to produce anything useful using self-assembly to date.

    But what many don’t understand about Rabbi Slifkin is that he shows that even if one would demonstrate that things can self-assemble, the contribution of the RBSH is in the fact that he designed the laws of nature which allow such a system to be built. There are many constants in nature which are just too fortunate to have the value they do. He shows that if evolution were proven true in a lab, this would not negate the existence of the RBSH. It is a shame that many have misunderstood his intent, and think he is trying to uproot yiddishkeit, when in fact he is trying to show that even the most sopshisticated science has a need for a borei.

    He appeals to those who work and have studied science on an advanced level who get annoyed when simplistic statements are made such as the scientists are fools or deliberately looking to falsify. In fact Darwin was no slouch. I saw an exhibit at the Harvard Museum of Natural History in which a new flower was discovered that had an extremely deep and narrow access to where the pollen was located. No known bug could fit into it. Darwin said there must be a moth of such and such a size with a long tongue of such and such dimension that does the pollenation. Sure enough, after a long search, such a moth was discovered, and it did indeed pollenate that flower.

    The brilliance of Rabbi Slifkin is that he tries to be meyashev the highest levels of science with the highest levels of Torah learning. Not the simplistic dismissals of “they are all reshaim and fools” which doesn’t go over to well with a trained scientist. Scientists have learned how to harness electromagnetism and send satellites to space which guide your own car. Biologists have learned to work with DNA and genes and have quite a good understanding of major cellular processes. DOn’t frum people go to Dor Yesharim to get tested? Don’t they go to doctors who have studied germs and so on? To call them fools is rude, but worse, is pure sheker.

    Of course there is so much more to learn, and we can’t visualize the movement of proteins in real-time, which would open up entire new worlds of research and we don’t understand how proteins fold up automatically, and which interact with which others without much painstaking trial and error. We don’t know how to regenerate many types of damaged cells, and this is being actively pursued in thousands of labs. However, calling these people fools and liars really doesn’t reflect well on the intelligence of the one using those phrases. It makes one sound like a boor, and certainly doesn’t do anything for the honor of Torah, as intelligent scientists will simply dismiss such noisemakers, and go home with the opinion that religious people really are from the dark ages.

    In order to enter into a dialogue with scientists, one must evidence some understanding of how deep science really is, and how hard these scientists work to uncover its mysteries. Rabbi Slifkin has done a remarkable job in trying to do that and show how the Torah can be understood even by educated scientists, and even if certain facets of evolution are found to be true.

    One anecdote that R. SLifkin mentioned somewhere is that one Rov once told him that evolution is obviously false because the fossil record doesn’t show enough evidence. So R. Slifkin answered back, well, exactly how many fossils would you need to believe that it was true. Obviously the Rov did not answer. The point is that the Rov went in to the subject with a preconceived notion, and not with an objective desire to study the merits of the theory. Rabbi Slifkin has ways of showing that even if the theory is 100 percent true, it can still be totally in accordance with the Torah. Let us give him a little credit for the brilliant work he has done, even if we do not agree with his conclusions.

    #647694

    proud tatty
    Member

    Please stop mentioning that clown Slifkin. He does not have a smicha. He writes because he wants his name to be out there (Look at his 1st piece in Second Focus where he says as much). He also once claimed on the site AishDas in 2003 that the Mabul must be an allegory because the is no evidence that it happened.

    Imagine that, he chooses to turn something into an allegory because he does not see evidence that it happened! CLOWN!! AND YOU QUOTE THIS KOFER??

    There is a passuk in Reah which mentions about a false profit who makes signs and wonders who says to go against the Torah, the next passuk says don’t follow him. I, Hashem, am testing you. Imaging that Hashem tells us in the Torah that there will be things which come to test our Emunah. No, we wont be able to claim Onus if we fail this test. This is part of bechira. There would not be bechira if those who went against the Torah wouldn’t be able to somehow justify their position.

    #647696

    Anonymous

    How arrogant, and how ridiculous!

    The wisdom of Hashem Himself is manifest in the wonderful world we live in, and since His wisdom is infinite, the wisdom contained in the world is infinite.

    Now the question is: IF there is no creator, how did we get here? IF there is no Creator, then why do these organs seems so similar? The entire nonsense is only assumptions and wishful thinking, not logic or reason.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 96 total)
  • The topic ‘A Theory Made of Water Vapor’ is closed to new replies.


Trending