“The critical importance of protecting the religious liberties of faith – institutions in the United States”
That is what YWN reported about askanim saying on their visit to the White House about 2 days ago.
Since WHEN are we promoting other peoples beliefs, ideologies, religions -I know they can and do that themselves – but most importantly we are taught by Torah to stick only with Yiddishkeit and leave the other stuff to the goyim – that includes their religious liberties.
If the laws of the land apply to all its citizens who are of divergent beliefs, then when we Yidden apply to the rulers of the lands we live in, we can only ask for the religious liberties of Jews to be protected and extended – this in our name only, on our own behalf only, and without even mentioning the existence of “other religions or faiths” – or using similar words and phrases.
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askanim and their actions on behalf of other religions
(27 posts)-
Posted 11 months ago #
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cont
It is time that askanim withdraw from Associations of Independent Faith Based Schools or Institutions and suchlike. What is our reason? - fine tuning,new direction,reassessment.We are very fortunate that governments are understanding of our needs and are so kind and willing to help us.They also understand that we have a special way of communicating with them how they can best do this.
It is easy to ask politely or put in print,that certain desired outcomes be conferred on Orthodox Jewish Schools or Orthodox Jewish Institutions (or even on Jewish people in workplaces where Jewish people are employed so that our Jewish religious requirements are met by both Jewish and non-Jewish employers ) without pointing to a law “ xyz ”. Pointing to such law would appear to be asking that those same benefits we are seeking be automatically conferred on other religions which it is not our business to do.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 2
The words “Orthodox Jewish Schools” and “Orthodox Judaism” could be put in place of all inapplicable words in a piece of legislation if it is printed out without the surrounding sections, to give officials dealing with askanim an idea of what we are humbly requesting.
When correspondence is exchanged between askanim and government officials or in talks, which must be conducted separately from other religions, it is important that our replies to officials’ questions or correspondence are not framed to imply approval of any decision which it is not our business to approve, but instead to indicate whether an outcome for Jewish Orthodox schools for example would be improved if “Jewish Orthodox schools were allowed to…” or that “ an outcome for Jewish Orthodox schools is satisfactory”.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 3
It is also a big “no- no” to advance liberal and reform types of "Jewishpseudoism", which are a guide to anti-Judaism, are detrimental to us and are a disgrace which should be outlawed. While some of their students are Jewish and some are not, but do not realize the fact that they are not Jewish, they are all also completely unaware they are not learning Judaism.
Therefore the repetition of “ Orthodox Judaism ” by askanim is very important.
It is also important not to identify Jewish people and Judaism with the words “independent schools” and “faith based schools”, because we are more “ Orthodox Jewish” than any other of these two descriptions and for the reasons stated in the initial post above.
It would be a K”H and all people would realize that Judaism is indeed different and that we are not giving a hechsher to everyone.
Posted 11 months ago # -
If the laws of the land apply to all its citizens who are of divergent beliefs, then when we Yidden apply to the rulers of the lands we live in, we can only ask for the religious liberties of Jews to be protected and extended – this in our name only, on our own behalf only, and without even mentioning the existence of “other religions or faiths” – or using similar words and phrases.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Do you know where this quote comes from?
Posted 11 months ago # -
ignore the troll
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 4
American politicians make the laws for the funding of public and private schooling establishments or for the direct payment for students’ schooling including vouchers . They also make laws that determine workplace conditions and numerous other laws. Many private schools are run by diverse religions other than Orthodox Judaism. Government funding in the USA is based on attaining secular results where it is allocated, and is equally open to “faith-based” and non- “ faith - based” organizations. Laws naming Orthodox Jewish schools may not be made under the USA Constitution, however the laws politicians make have a substantial effect on Jewish schools and Jewish people in general.
In the USA there is no legislative compulsion that askanim must act, or be forced to act on behalf of any particular group of individuals or any religion other than Orthodox Judaism solely. Therefore it is a matter of great distress and great concern that despite this section of the First Amendment of the United States of America Constitution,- “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”, the custom of interfaith participation in Advisory Committees and other interfaith events has become a “compulsory” item without which one could be possibly labeled as antisocial, be defamed or worse, chas v sholom! and without participation in which, it is not entirely clear whether funding could be withheld by officials or difficult laws could be framed.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Save your breath to cool your porridge.
Posted 11 months ago # -
This is our porridge! - but also much, much more.(no, not munch more!)
Cheerio, oh oh oh
Are you(previous post)OneOfMany not ready now? Get a move on, we are waiting.Posted 11 months ago # -
very hard
Posted 11 months ago # -
?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Its too bad much of History isnt taught
In the Late 1800's there was a massive Catholic immigration into the US and the Protestant population didnt like it. The Catholics preferred their own school system to the existing public School.
The Protestants then passed constitutional amendments in most states including NY and NJ prohibiting taxpayer dollars to going to religious schools (But they really meant Catholic, but it applied to all religious Schools) These amendments are called Blaine Amendments and its the reason today vouches for yeshivas are illegal in most states (The amendments said religious schools, not catholic Schools)
I am sure you heard stories of people being forced to work on Shabbos and if they did not they were fired. It was the unions in the 1930's especially that pushed for the 5 day work week inadvertantly allowing Shabbos observerance much easier as most jobs did not require you to work on Saturday (Or Sunday for that matter) anymore.
In the 1960's there was the civil rights movement and while the African Americans, Alternative Lifystyles, Hispanics and other demanding their rights, it turned out Jews also got their rights as well. No longer were Jews barred from most places. Jews were pretty much free to do as they pleased, Live where they want, vacation where they want etc. The American Charedi lifestyle would not be possible without the civil rights movement
Posted 11 months ago # -
Are you sure they are promoting the precepts of other religions rather than promoting the idea of freedom of religion for all? Additionally, it is wise to promote the idea of freedom of religion for all, if one wants freedom for their own religion.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 5
It would be easy for governments to establish separate Advisory Committees for Orthodox Jewish participation only, and they should be encouraged to do this as a respectful gesture to us. To this day askanim make statements that mention everybody’s religious rights under the first amendment clause( 2 days ago in relation to employer sponsored health) and in other instances mention specific religions by name, finding it impossible to articulate ONLY the words “Orthodox Jewish”, which would render their statements kosher.
The guiding principle is to ask oneself whether our own Moshe Rabbenu would have engaged in the way of interfaith under which heading all their behavior is listed. No. It also helps very much to remember Who is listening. Further, the repetitions of askanim in this fashion affects a whole community including impressionable children, in a line of thinking not in keeping with Orthodox Judaism. Promoting the idea of freedom of religion for anyone is superfluous because there is such a freedom in the USA already! and because according to our own beautiful and correct Orthodox Judaism we can only ask for our the freedom of own religious rights,solely on our behalf, and again - not on anyone else's behalf, in separate forums, at different times, under our own banner.To argue the opposite shows to what extent interfaith has entered the minds of otherwise sensible Jewish people - we cannot say that askanim's actions in interfaith have nothing to do with this. The only way "history" matters is to remember our own history and the consequences of not remembering what it teaches us, and what it is we have been promised that will be apportioned according to our own behaviour.
That governments see interfaith as a way to stop inter-religious hatred should not deter them from releasing Jewish people from any obligation to participate in interfaith since it is against our Orthodox Jewish religion to participate in interfaith, and no one should feel offended by it. Jewish people hold all humanity in great esteem - we don’t need to inquire, in the normal course of events about another person’s religion and we have many courteous day-to-day business interactions with people not of our religion.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 6
It is very important that askanim express to the government what it is that they feel is the best for Jewish people - from our own unique perspective, in forums separate from other religions, and without any other interfaith, and for that they would be commended.
The principle that askanim not be seen, heard or known to be acting on behalf of other religions or philosophical groups including liberal and reform types of Jewishpseudoism, and not participating in any other interfaith or in any combined Advisory Committees, always holds. Whatever the outcomes for Orthodox Jewish schools, or for the religious rights of Jewish people in the workplace, the argument of "the power of group bargaining” in conjunction with other religions and groups doesn’t hold, because our obligation is to Ha Kaddosh Baruch Hu Who does not allow us to engage in interfaith.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Cont 7
Yes, “We are very fortunate that governments are understanding of our needs and are so kind and willing to help us. They also understand that we have a special way of communicating with them how they can best do this.” ( from post above by ready now, cont – not numbered ) - but to what extent?
Would they release us from interfaith ( matters outlined in the posts above) willingly, with accord, even without being formally asked, and with real understanding - the understanding that we cannot and may not do that which is disallowed to us?Posted 10 months ago # -
Zahavsdad, vouchers which can be used for religious schools are constitutional under certain conditions (Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002)):
1. The program must have a valid secular purpose,
2. Aid must go to parents and not to the schools,
3. A broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,
4 The program must be neutral with respect to religion, and
5. There must be adequate nonreligious options.This might open the door for them to be in acccordance with Blaine amendments.
As for askanim acting on behalf or or in coalition with other religions, under the US Constituion it is all or none. Thus Rav Moshe allowed the Aguda to act with another religious group to lobby for Federal programs that would benefit yeshivot (leaving aside federalism questions).
So far as participating in advisory committees, there are some who interpret Rambam as REQUIRING us to try to convince non-Jews to follow the Sheva Mitzvot. Even according to those who do not require it, it is certainly praiseworthy. Again, this requires participation of other groups but there is no reason why the Orthodox representatives cannot disagree with them.Posted 10 months ago # -
What is this? The Pentagon Papers? lol
This is a coffee room, not a senate sub-committee meeting while the senators are paid on the clock.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Avi K: very good, but those factors only relate to passing muster under the FEDERAL Constitution. State constitutions can and do prohibit the government from doing things that are allowed under the Federal Constitution. Blain Amendments are more restrictive on State governments than the 1st amendment.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Rav Moshe Feinstein specifically did not allow interfaith between other religions and Jewish people neither on a religious level nor on social nor on political levels, ever.
“All or none” under the USA Constitution for lobbing the government with other religions?!! (previous post Avi K). No not at all.
It is a mistake to believe that the government does not have more than one set of ears - what a simplification. Hasn’t everyone heard of the freedom of association derived from the first amendment of the USA Constitution. No one is required or compelled to associate with any group, union, religion, club, school, individual, etcccc for any reason or purpose, or for no reason or purpose in particular This is beneficial to us Jewish people who keep to Orthodox Judaism - but not so good for anyone who don’t know.
If anyone would claim that other religions are even a close approximation of the Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach - they would be still way off the mark! The nations have had a lot of time to skirt around the issue of the Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach . The committees that lobby for funding for example, in the USA, already pour praise on the religions as it is . As can be seen the committees have nothing to do with the Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach. The words “ a close approximation” should not be applied to the Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach , - there is no approximation about them, because they are quite specific. Has anyone heard lately of the leader of any religion suddenly going for the Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach? Not lately. And even if so, we still mustn’t participate. Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach are already a long time all over the internet, very often in corrupted form - not recommended to check this, as it is not good to see or read , including navigating to some of the sites.
Interfaith in its other versions also manifests itself by religions “sharing” their religions with each other – again something not in the teaching of our Orthodox Judaism, our foundation.In March of the secular year ’67, Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a letter to a certain rabbi urging him not to go to an interfaith meeting which was to include many rabbis. The arguments Rav Feinstein used were very compelling and the essence of wisdom.
Too long we are not using our sechel - how does it look to children to see this and any other type of interfaith - very confusing to put it mildly, as well as to adults, and not good in the least for those who participate. We don’t have two masters.Posted 10 months ago # -
RSRH, in light of the Supreme Court decision in Zelman, state constitutional provisions could be interpreted to allow vouchers to be used for yeshivot.
Ready, according to what I read that the Aguda acted in concert with another major religious organization to lobby Congress and HEW with Rav Moshe's permission. Interfaith meetings are something else. Rav Soloveichik also opposed them saying that his talmidim were lawyers not theologians. What I meant about "all or none" is that a program that benefits yeshiva students must also benefit students in other religious schools. I not, it is in violation of the Establishment clause.As for Sheva Mitzvot, as I wrote many, such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, actually say that we are obligated to preach them.Posted 10 months ago # -
As has been maintained in all the posts of “ready now”- Jewish People are NOT bound by secular law to lobby on behalf of other religions for anything, IRRESPECTIVE of how any law is phrased - if and when the government gives to other religions, it is not our business - ( please re- read posts above) , fundamentally because Orthodox Judaism, our foundation does not allow it and conveniently , because of the freedom of association derived from the first amendment of the USA Constitution where no one is required or compelled to associate with any group, union, religion, club, school, individual, etcccc
“Participating in advisory committees” of the type of which “ready now “ has made strong objection, has resulted in NO teaching of Sheva Mitzvos b’ne i Noach ( The Seven Noachide Laws) – but only in praise and basically reinforcement of what is there already, so to say or suggest that this is the way of fulfilling a requirement to teach Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach(The Seven Noachide Laws) is at the very least really not fully comprehending the problem, and at most willful sabotage.
The result of the “advisory committees” is that our zchus (merit) is diminished has v shalom and that the other religions are mislead. Also mislead are Jewish people. Further, it is not a constant requirement to ACTIVELY teach Sheva Mitzvos b’nei Noach(The Seven Noachide Laws) - it can be done by example - by living like a Jew – and is also secondary to teaching “lost” or uneducated Jews.
The riddle is solved: When is a combined religious committee or lobby group not interfaith? NEVER. And certainly not in living memory or prehistoric memory. By participating in interfaith one would be going against the foundation of Orthodox Judaism, has v sholom, a very very very big mistake. Just remember you are Jewish.In March of the secular year ’67, Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a letter to a certain rabbi urging him not to go to an interfaith meeting which was to include many rabbis. The arguments Rav Feinstein used were very compelling and the essence of wisdom.
Rav Moshe Feinstein did NOT allow the Aguda to lobby with any other religion on any level, religious , social nor political , you can check this for yourself.Posted 10 months ago # -
I'm no constitution expert, and I don't know about joining interfaith groups, and its hard to read everything you wrote, but I don't see such a big deal with what you write against: "without pointing to a law “ xyz ”. Pointing to such law would appear to be asking that those same benefits we are seeking be automatically conferred on other religions which it is not our business to do."
Maybe this letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe addresses your issue, where he speaks out strongly on a number of grounds against those who say that there's a problem with Jewish institutions receiving financial support if it simultaneously helps other faiths:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15949&st=&pgnum=314&hilite=Posted 10 months ago # -
Cont 10
It is al pi Halacha (according to Jewish Law) to refrain from asking for funding for what we must not promote - so we should be consistent, not point to any law “xyz” for example that mentions other schools of any variety, because doing so would violate our teaching : to be civil but to refrain from advancing any other philosophy or any other religion.
As suggested in a previous post by “ready now”, above , all “ relevant” words in a piece of legislation can easily be replaced with the words “Orthodox Jewish Schools”, and outcomes could be said by askanim to be “ adequate for Orthodox Jewish schools ” or “could be improved for Orthodox Jewish schools by allowing Orthodox Jewish schools to do, or to have, or to receive…” , according to the circumstances. That officials could possibly later delete those words may not be avoided. For Orthodox Jewish schools there must be assurances that any funding received is not dependent on varying the nature, duration or frequency of their education schedule which would in any way conflict or interfere with the study of Orthodox Judaism or that are inconsistent with the teaching of Orthodox Judaism.
There is no problem or “ issue” with Jewish institutions receiving financial support regardless of whoever else happens to receive funding at the same time, - the point is that when askanim make a request for funding it should be for Jewish Orthodox schools they ask - not ask for funding for anyone else - it is not their job and is a mistake. It is not the receiving that is the problem it is the method of asking that is the problem, and it is a certainty that it has worried many people.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Cont 11
At this time it is relevant and overdue to ask that Jewish people should discontinue calling any chevra kaddisha a “chapel”. It is a custom –"chapel" - but not a Jewish custom. Let’s finally remove this word and replace it with “ funeral home ”, “burial establishment”, or simply chevra kaddisha . It is easy for a Jewish funeral home to make a change of name application - very easy and a great mitzvah .
The origin of the word “ chapel” we cannot discuss, but we have an idea why it is not a minhag! May we all soon merit the life of the world to come.Posted 10 months ago # -
Cont 12
The meaning of Chanukah - light not darkness, not a secular holiday, not the freedom of any other religions other than Orthodox Judaism. What Chanukah should not be: guest speakers at Chanukah celebrations who mislead millions of people at home and around the world, because of news flashes within seconds of the event, who speak of Chanukah as
“ the freedom of all religions” !! That is why we must avoid Chanukah celebrations in conjunction with other religions, and if politicians are invited guests they should not be invited to make speeches and that should be a condition for attendance. The lighting of Chanukah candles is also by Jewish people only.The Chanukah candles at the windows and at the doors of Jewish homes was and is great publicity. Now in public spaces, the miracle cannot be delegitimized.
Posted 10 months ago # -
Sigh...
Posted 10 months ago #
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