askanim and their actions on behalf of other religions

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  • #603698
    ready now
    Participant

    That is what YWN reported about askanim saying on their visit to the White House about 2 days ago.

    #882299
    ready now
    Participant

    cont

    It is time that askanim withdraw from Associations of Independent Faith Based Schools or Institutions and suchlike. What is our reason? – fine tuning,new direction,reassessment.

    We are very fortunate that governments are understanding of our needs and are so kind and willing to help us.They also understand that we have a special way of communicating with them how they can best do this.

    #882300
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 2

    #882301
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 3

    #882302
    dash™
    Participant

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Do you know where this quote comes from?

    #882303
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    ignore the troll

    #882304
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 4

    #882305
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Save your breath to cool your porridge.

    #882306
    ready now
    Participant

    This is our porridge! – but also much, much more.(no, not munch more!)

    Cheerio, oh oh oh

    Are you(previous post)OneOfMany not ready now? Get a move on, we are waiting.

    #882307
    zichmich
    Member

    very hard

    #882308
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    ?

    #882309
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its too bad much of History isnt taught

    In the Late 1800’s there was a massive Catholic immigration into the US and the Protestant population didnt like it. The Catholics preferred their own school system to the existing public School.

    The Protestants then passed constitutional amendments in most states including NY and NJ prohibiting taxpayer dollars to going to religious schools (But they really meant Catholic, but it applied to all religious Schools) These amendments are called Blaine Amendments and its the reason today vouches for yeshivas are illegal in most states (The amendments said religious schools, not catholic Schools)

    I am sure you heard stories of people being forced to work on Shabbos and if they did not they were fired. It was the unions in the 1930’s especially that pushed for the 5 day work week inadvertantly allowing Shabbos observerance much easier as most jobs did not require you to work on Saturday (Or Sunday for that matter) anymore.

    In the 1960’s there was the civil rights movement and while the African Americans, Alternative Lifystyles, Hispanics and other demanding their rights, it turned out Jews also got their rights as well. No longer were Jews barred from most places. Jews were pretty much free to do as they pleased, Live where they want, vacation where they want etc. The American Charedi lifestyle would not be possible without the civil rights movement

    #882310
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Are you sure they are promoting the precepts of other religions rather than promoting the idea of freedom of religion for all? Additionally, it is wise to promote the idea of freedom of religion for all, if one wants freedom for their own religion.

    #882311
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 5

    The guiding principle is to ask oneself whether our own Moshe Rabbenu would have engaged in the way of interfaith under which heading all their behavior is listed. No. It also helps very much to remember Who is listening. Further, the repetitions of askanim in this fashion affects a whole community including impressionable children, in a line of thinking not in keeping with Orthodox Judaism. Promoting the idea of freedom of religion for anyone is superfluous because there is such a freedom in the USA already! and because according to our own beautiful and correct Orthodox Judaism we can only ask for our the freedom of own religious rights,solely on our behalf, and again – not on anyone else’s behalf, in separate forums, at different times, under our own banner.To argue the opposite shows to what extent interfaith has entered the minds of otherwise sensible Jewish people – we cannot say that askanim’s actions in interfaith have nothing to do with this. The only way “history” matters is to remember our own history and the consequences of not remembering what it teaches us, and what it is we have been promised that will be apportioned according to our own behaviour.

    #882312
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 6

    It is very important that askanim express to the government what it is that they feel is the best for Jewish people – from our own unique perspective, in forums separate from other religions, and without any other interfaith, and for that they would be commended.

    #882313
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 7

    Would they release us from interfaith ( matters outlined in the posts above) willingly, with accord, even without being formally asked, and with real understanding – the understanding that we cannot and may not do that which is disallowed to us?

    #882314
    Avi K
    Participant

    Zahavsdad, vouchers which can be used for religious schools are constitutional under certain conditions (Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002)):

    1. The program must have a valid secular purpose,

    2. Aid must go to parents and not to the schools,

    3. A broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,

    4 The program must be neutral with respect to religion, and

    5. There must be adequate nonreligious options.

    This might open the door for them to be in acccordance with Blaine amendments.

    As for askanim acting on behalf or or in coalition with other religions, under the US Constituion it is all or none. Thus Rav Moshe allowed the Aguda to act with another religious group to lobby for Federal programs that would benefit yeshivot (leaving aside federalism questions).

    So far as participating in advisory committees, there are some who interpret Rambam as REQUIRING us to try to convince non-Jews to follow the Sheva Mitzvot. Even according to those who do not require it, it is certainly praiseworthy. Again, this requires participation of other groups but there is no reason why the Orthodox representatives cannot disagree with them.

    #882315
    BTGuy
    Participant

    What is this? The Pentagon Papers? lol

    This is a coffee room, not a senate sub-committee meeting while the senators are paid on the clock.

    #882316
    RSRH
    Member

    Avi K: very good, but those factors only relate to passing muster under the FEDERAL Constitution. State constitutions can and do prohibit the government from doing things that are allowed under the Federal Constitution. Blain Amendments are more restrictive on State governments than the 1st amendment.

    #882317
    ready now
    Participant

    Rav Moshe Feinstein specifically did not allow interfaith between other religions and Jewish people neither on a religious level nor on social nor on political levels, ever.

    #882318
    Avi K
    Participant

    RSRH, in light of the Supreme Court decision in Zelman, state constitutional provisions could be interpreted to allow vouchers to be used for yeshivot.

    Ready, according to what I read that the Aguda acted in concert with another major religious organization to lobby Congress and HEW with Rav Moshe’s permission. Interfaith meetings are something else. Rav Soloveichik also opposed them saying that his talmidim were lawyers not theologians. What I meant about “all or none” is that a program that benefits yeshiva students must also benefit students in other religious schools. I not, it is in violation of the Establishment clause.As for Sheva Mitzvot, as I wrote many, such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, actually say that we are obligated to preach them.

    #882319
    ready now
    Participant

    The riddle is solved: When is a combined religious committee or lobby group not interfaith? NEVER. And certainly not in living memory or prehistoric memory. By participating in interfaith one would be going against the foundation of Orthodox Judaism, has v sholom, a very very very big mistake. Just remember you are Jewish.

    Rav Moshe Feinstein did NOT allow the Aguda to lobby with any other religion on any level, religious , social nor political , you can check this for yourself.

    #882320
    Kozov
    Member

    Maybe this letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe addresses your issue, where he speaks out strongly on a number of grounds against those who say that there’s a problem with Jewish institutions receiving financial support if it simultaneously helps other faiths:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15949&st=&pgnum=314&hilite=

    #882321
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 10

    #882322
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 11

    #882323
    ready now
    Participant

    Cont 12

    The meaning of Chanukah – light not darkness, not a secular holiday, not the freedom of any other religions other than Orthodox Judaism. What Chanukah should not be: guest speakers at Chanukah celebrations who mislead millions of people at home and around the world, because of news flashes within seconds of the event, who speak of Chanukah as

    The Chanukah candles at the windows and at the doors of Jewish homes was and is great publicity. Now in public spaces, the miracle cannot be delegitimized.

    #882324
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sigh…

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