June 6, 2012 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #603698
That is what YWN reported about askanim saying on their visit to the White House about 2 days ago.June 11, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #882299
It is time that askanim withdraw from Associations of Independent Faith Based Schools or Institutions and suchlike. What is our reason? – fine tuning,new direction,reassessment.
We are very fortunate that governments are understanding of our needs and are so kind and willing to help us.They also understand that we have a special way of communicating with them how they can best do this.June 12, 2012 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #882300
Cont 2June 13, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #882301
Cont 3June 15, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #882302dash™Participant
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Do you know where this quote comes from?June 15, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #882303yitayningwutParticipant
ignore the trollJune 19, 2012 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #882304
Cont 4June 20, 2012 1:27 am at 1:27 am #882305OneOfManyParticipant
Save your breath to cool your porridge.June 20, 2012 2:02 am at 2:02 am #882306
This is our porridge! – but also much, much more.(no, not munch more!)
Cheerio, oh oh oh
Are you(previous post)OneOfMany not ready now? Get a move on, we are waiting.June 20, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #882307zichmichMember
very hardJune 20, 2012 3:35 am at 3:35 am #882308OneOfManyParticipant
?June 20, 2012 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #882309zahavasdadParticipant
Its too bad much of History isnt taught
In the Late 1800’s there was a massive Catholic immigration into the US and the Protestant population didnt like it. The Catholics preferred their own school system to the existing public School.
The Protestants then passed constitutional amendments in most states including NY and NJ prohibiting taxpayer dollars to going to religious schools (But they really meant Catholic, but it applied to all religious Schools) These amendments are called Blaine Amendments and its the reason today vouches for yeshivas are illegal in most states (The amendments said religious schools, not catholic Schools)
I am sure you heard stories of people being forced to work on Shabbos and if they did not they were fired. It was the unions in the 1930’s especially that pushed for the 5 day work week inadvertantly allowing Shabbos observerance much easier as most jobs did not require you to work on Saturday (Or Sunday for that matter) anymore.
In the 1960’s there was the civil rights movement and while the African Americans, Alternative Lifystyles, Hispanics and other demanding their rights, it turned out Jews also got their rights as well. No longer were Jews barred from most places. Jews were pretty much free to do as they pleased, Live where they want, vacation where they want etc. The American Charedi lifestyle would not be possible without the civil rights movementJune 20, 2012 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #882310BTGuyParticipant
Are you sure they are promoting the precepts of other religions rather than promoting the idea of freedom of religion for all? Additionally, it is wise to promote the idea of freedom of religion for all, if one wants freedom for their own religion.June 20, 2012 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #882311
The guiding principle is to ask oneself whether our own Moshe Rabbenu would have engaged in the way of interfaith under which heading all their behavior is listed. No. It also helps very much to remember Who is listening. Further, the repetitions of askanim in this fashion affects a whole community including impressionable children, in a line of thinking not in keeping with Orthodox Judaism. Promoting the idea of freedom of religion for anyone is superfluous because there is such a freedom in the USA already! and because according to our own beautiful and correct Orthodox Judaism we can only ask for our the freedom of own religious rights,solely on our behalf, and again – not on anyone else’s behalf, in separate forums, at different times, under our own banner.To argue the opposite shows to what extent interfaith has entered the minds of otherwise sensible Jewish people – we cannot say that askanim’s actions in interfaith have nothing to do with this. The only way “history” matters is to remember our own history and the consequences of not remembering what it teaches us, and what it is we have been promised that will be apportioned according to our own behaviour.June 21, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #882312
It is very important that askanim express to the government what it is that they feel is the best for Jewish people – from our own unique perspective, in forums separate from other religions, and without any other interfaith, and for that they would be commended.June 25, 2012 2:46 am at 2:46 am #882313
Would they release us from interfaith ( matters outlined in the posts above) willingly, with accord, even without being formally asked, and with real understanding – the understanding that we cannot and may not do that which is disallowed to us?June 25, 2012 4:39 am at 4:39 am #882314Avi KParticipant
Zahavsdad, vouchers which can be used for religious schools are constitutional under certain conditions (Zelman v. Simmons-Harris, 536 U.S. 639 (2002)):
1. The program must have a valid secular purpose,
2. Aid must go to parents and not to the schools,
3. A broad class of beneficiaries must be covered,
4 The program must be neutral with respect to religion, and
5. There must be adequate nonreligious options.
This might open the door for them to be in acccordance with Blaine amendments.
As for askanim acting on behalf or or in coalition with other religions, under the US Constituion it is all or none. Thus Rav Moshe allowed the Aguda to act with another religious group to lobby for Federal programs that would benefit yeshivot (leaving aside federalism questions).
So far as participating in advisory committees, there are some who interpret Rambam as REQUIRING us to try to convince non-Jews to follow the Sheva Mitzvot. Even according to those who do not require it, it is certainly praiseworthy. Again, this requires participation of other groups but there is no reason why the Orthodox representatives cannot disagree with them.June 25, 2012 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #882315BTGuyParticipant
What is this? The Pentagon Papers? lol
This is a coffee room, not a senate sub-committee meeting while the senators are paid on the clock.June 25, 2012 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #882316RSRHMember
Avi K: very good, but those factors only relate to passing muster under the FEDERAL Constitution. State constitutions can and do prohibit the government from doing things that are allowed under the Federal Constitution. Blain Amendments are more restrictive on State governments than the 1st amendment.June 25, 2012 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #882317
Rav Moshe Feinstein specifically did not allow interfaith between other religions and Jewish people neither on a religious level nor on social nor on political levels, ever.June 26, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #882318Avi KParticipant
RSRH, in light of the Supreme Court decision in Zelman, state constitutional provisions could be interpreted to allow vouchers to be used for yeshivot.
Ready, according to what I read that the Aguda acted in concert with another major religious organization to lobby Congress and HEW with Rav Moshe’s permission. Interfaith meetings are something else. Rav Soloveichik also opposed them saying that his talmidim were lawyers not theologians. What I meant about “all or none” is that a program that benefits yeshiva students must also benefit students in other religious schools. I not, it is in violation of the Establishment clause.As for Sheva Mitzvot, as I wrote many, such as the Lubavitcher Rebbe, actually say that we are obligated to preach them.June 26, 2012 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #882319
The riddle is solved: When is a combined religious committee or lobby group not interfaith? NEVER. And certainly not in living memory or prehistoric memory. By participating in interfaith one would be going against the foundation of Orthodox Judaism, has v sholom, a very very very big mistake. Just remember you are Jewish.
Rav Moshe Feinstein did NOT allow the Aguda to lobby with any other religion on any level, religious , social nor political , you can check this for yourself.June 27, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #882320KozovMember
Maybe this letter from the Lubavitcher Rebbe addresses your issue, where he speaks out strongly on a number of grounds against those who say that there’s a problem with Jewish institutions receiving financial support if it simultaneously helps other faiths:June 27, 2012 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #882321
Cont 10June 28, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #882322
Cont 11July 3, 2012 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #882323
The meaning of Chanukah – light not darkness, not a secular holiday, not the freedom of any other religions other than Orthodox Judaism. What Chanukah should not be: guest speakers at Chanukah celebrations who mislead millions of people at home and around the world, because of news flashes within seconds of the event, who speak of Chanukah as
The Chanukah candles at the windows and at the doors of Jewish homes was and is great publicity. Now in public spaces, the miracle cannot be delegitimized.July 5, 2012 1:06 am at 1:06 am #882324apushatayidParticipant
Sigh…May 3, 2022 8:09 am at 8:09 am #2082094n0mesorahParticipant
From the 1500s until today, advocating in the halls of kings and parliaments on behalf of the Jews to practice freely almost always included advocacy on behalf of all religions. You should be complaining to the God Of History. But obviously you consider that a different faith.
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