Assorted Tzniyus/Pritzus Questions

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  • #616107
    mw13
    Participant

    As far as I know, almost no frum male goes to a mixed beach. (And even then, we could go the “no true Scotsman” route.) The reason is obvious – there are women there who are dressed entirely inappropriately. But what about going to a public park during the summer, when many of the people there will be dressed in a way that by no means meets our standards of modesty? Is that OK?

    In a somewhat similar vein, can/should a frum male be going to mall frequented by non-Jews in the summer months? What if it is possible to get the item he’s looking for online, or have somebody else (female) pick it up?

    And for the grand finale, I’ve noticed that much of the cleaning help that the frum community employs is female, not Jewish, and not dressed in accordance with our standards of modesty. Why should we not set some basic dress codes for the people we employ in our homes? If the entire community got together, with our collective bargaining power I’m we sure we could ask that certain standards be respected – elbows, knees, no low tops, etc. Money talks.

    Which of these things would you do, and which of them wouldn’t you do? Where do you draw the line, and why?

    #KTCRIM

    #1094257
    charliehall
    Participant

    Hard to avoid scantily clad women in the hot summers. I always have a sefer and or an audio shiur with me when I take subways and buses to keep my mind on the kadosh rather than the chol.

    #1094258
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mw13 – AYLOR

    #1094259
    takahmamash
    Participant

    What if it is possible to get the item he’s looking for online . . .

    It’s not possible. The internet is assur.

    #1094261
    apushatayid
    Participant

    doesnt sound like OP is actually asking a question.

    #1094262
    akuperma
    Participant

    If you totally want to avoid undressed women during the summer months in most western countries, spend the entire summer in the mountains (to be really safe, consider camping in a remote area). Avoid needing to shop, Certainly avoid stores, public streets, mass transit, etc.

    If you want to hire an undressed goy to work in your house, that is a problem. Of course you can do your own housework, or hire someone with clothes. Air conditioning helps (no one wants to run around in your house in their bikini if its 65 degrees inside). In all fairness, most blue collar workers dress a lot more modestly than beach “swimmers”.

    The beaches during the summer are especially problematic since even by the goyim’s standards they run around excessively undressed – which is something many of the goyim also complain about. Avoid going to the beach – which is not a big problem.

    #1094263
    Joseph
    Participant

    Or some people won’t like the answers to the questions. So they’d rather it not be asked.

    #1094264
    writersoul
    Participant

    You’re so right.

    No reason why the men shouldn’t just go to the beaches already.

    #KTCRRRIM

    #1094265
    shelaim
    Member

    There is a Jewish company who makes tzniusdik uniform for cleaning ladies.

    #1094266
    Chortkov
    Participant

    @Charlie: Hard to avoid scantily clad women in the hot summers. I always have a sefer and or an audio shiur with me when I take subways and buses to keep my mind on the kadosh rather than the chol.

    Actually, you have to be careful learning in front of something that may be considered an ervah. I know somebody who learnt every day on the subway, and was told by his rav that in the summer, he should make sure to stand and face the wall rather than sit across from an ervah, and not just because of Shmiras Eynayim; you may have a problem with Hilchos Talmud Torah. I advise you to ask a rabbi.

    @Gavraatwork: mw13 – AYLOR

    @Apushateyid: doesnt sound like OP is actually asking a question.

    You apparently missed the point of the thread. #KTCRIM (+1 to mw13!!)

    mw13 – Of course, there is chiyuv lehalachah – not just a nice minhag, but a chiyuv – to avoid any unnecessary interaction with immodesty. Going to a mixed beach where there is certain pritzus is assur for any Jewish male. I think the only hetter is going to be ?? ???? ??? ??????; if it is possible to order clothes without going to a shopping mall in the summer, you may well be mechuyav to do that.

    I know quite a few people who take off their glasses in the streets in the summer. Not gedoilei yisroel, not chassidishe kedoshim, but regular Litvishe balabatim who don’t see the need to see everything that crosses their path. If your eyesight is good enough that you won’t bash into lampposts, you can do that.

    As for cleaning ladies – I don’t know the American industry, but in London it isn’t such a problem. The majority of cleaning ladies are Romanian, Polish or otherwise European, and a lot of them are religious (in some way or another). They often dress more tzniusdik than many frum ladies. And the ones that aren’t are generally sensitive enough to know that they must dress modestly whilst working.

    I don’t see how anybody would be able to draw a line, as you asked. At least in principles, any self respecting Yorei Shamayim will tell you that he wouldn’t compromise standards. In practice, however, it is easier said than done.

    #1094267
    apushatayid
    Participant

    this is moving?

    #1094268
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    can/should a frum male be going to mall frequented by non-Jews in the summer months?

    Not in the winter either!!

    #1094269
    mw13
    Participant

    Charliehall:

    Hard to avoid scantily clad women in the hot summers.

    That should be more of a reason to careful, not less. The more widespread a danger, the more vigilance is necessary.

    yekke2:

    You apparently missed the point of the thread. #KTCRIM (+1 to mw13!!)

    🙂

    Of course, there is chiyuv lehalachah – not just a nice minhag, but a chiyuv – to avoid any unnecessary interaction with immodesty. Going to a mixed beach where there is certain pritzus is assur for any Jewish male. I think the only hetter is going to be ?? ???? ??? ??????; if it is possible to order clothes without going to a shopping mall in the summer, you may well be mechuyav to do that.

    Agreed. The question, how do we define “unnecessary”? For example, what if I can get a nicer or cheaper shirt in the mall?

    I know quite a few people who take off their glasses in the streets in the summer. Not gedoilei yisroel, not chassidishe kedoshim, but regular Litvishe balabatim who don’t see the need to see everything that crosses their path.

    I’ve done that myself more than a few times when the situation called for it (ie, the presence of individuals who were not dressed to the standards of modesty I’m accustomed to), and I highly suggest it.

    I don’t see how anybody would be able to draw a line, as you asked. At least in principles, any self respecting Yorei Shamayim will tell you that he wouldn’t compromise standards. In practice, however, it is easier said than done.

    I’ll admit that “draw the line” may not have been the best terminology to use in this context. This is not entirely a black and white issue, where everything can labeled “muttar” or “assur”. But I’d still like to see where people draw different graduations of gray. And even if we can’t come out with an actual list of dos and don’ts, its still important to just bring awareness to these issues.

    GAW:

    While there are certainly places that are problematic in the winter as well, the problem is more widespread in summer. For example, I would go to an amusement park in the fall or winter, but not in the heat of the summer.

    #1094270
    Joseph
    Participant

    Of course, there is chiyuv lehalachah – not just a nice minhag, but a chiyuv – to avoid any unnecessary interaction with immodesty. Going to a mixed beach where there is certain pritzus is assur for any Jewish male. I think the only hetter is going to be ?? ???? ??? ??????; if it is possible to order clothes without going to a shopping mall in the summer, you may well be mechuyav to do that.

    Agreed. The question, how do we define “unnecessary”? For example, what if I can get a nicer or cheaper shirt in the mall?

    I don’t understand the doubt. Is there really a question whether it is permitted to violate shmiras einayim in order to secure a “nicer shirt”? That’s a “necessity”?

    #1094271
    yehudayona
    Participant

    I saw an ad in one of the Jewish shopping magazines a while ago that mentioned “goyta uniforms.” If your cleaning lady spends the whole day at your house, you may be able to tell her what to wear, but if she’s there for a couple of hours, I doubt it. A while ago I saw a woman who was hired help of some type (helping a frum mother with little kids) who was wearing an “I (heart) Yoshke” shirt.

    #1094272
    Chortkov
    Participant

    @Joseph: The question is whether it is considered ???? ????? ??? when the end you are trying to reach cannot be achieved by any other means. Is “?? ????” defined by the means or by the end? By ??? ???? ?? ????, the Rishonim write that wearing tzitzis with kilayim may not be considered ???? ????? ??? to say that you should wear a shirt of different material, because you want to wear this shirt. Once I am wearing this shirt, it is ?? ???? ????? ???.

    Of course, this may be chalk and cheese – the two things are not remotely connected. But the definition of “unnecessary” doesn’t have to mean “can you live without it”.

    #1094273
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    As long as the ultimate goal of the trip is permissible, and one is trying to accomplish the goal in the most efficient way (i.e. no pritzus free equivalent “darka acharina”), I would find it hard to make a blanket issur on going even to places where you KNOW there is pritzus. If you KNOW that you will have hirhurim it’s a different story.

    While there are SOME clear rules when it comes to shmiras einayim, the vast majority of the avodah is subjective, IMHO. Everyone should work on moving toward the “no hirhurim” side of the continuum, and no one but God is perfect.

    #1094274
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    There’s a specific issur of swimming with someone of the opposite gender that has nothing to do with how they’re dressed.

    Also, I’ve heard b’sheim Rav Wolbe ZT”L not to close your eyes everywhere you go “If you don’t get the bekius, you won’t get the beiyun”. In other words, don’t try to look at people dressed inappropriately, but you also shouldn’t make a fuss about not looking at anything as it would just mean that your taivos will be that much greater when you accidentally see something.

    #1094275
    Sam2
    Participant

    yserbius: Makor? In theory, if everyone was dressed perfectly (which, granted, may be impossible, but let’s say it’s possible), there is no Issur of co-ed swimming.

    #1094276
    Joseph
    Participant

    The clothing clings to the body, when wet, making it tight. And the bathing skirt rides up causing the legs to be uncovered. So men couldn’t even be present, for those reasons alone if not others, when women are swimming even if they weren’t in the water with them.

    #1094277
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    So Joseph, you agree with Sam, had you only understood him. The “if not others” part of your comment was the only thing remotely addressing his point.

    #1094278
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But what if scientists invented swim clothes that stay modest even in the water?

    #1094279
    TJA908228
    Member

    I must say, the people commenting on this thread sound totally abnormal. I try to keep an open mind with how others live their life, but these comments are hilarious. Get real and worry about important things i.e. Be honest, be a good husband, a caring and loving father etc.

    #1094280
    Happy Go Lucky!!
    Participant

    Quite normal, exemplary in fact, to someone trying to live a normal Jewish Torah-true life. – These are real issues.

    #1094281
    mw13
    Participant

    Joseph:

    Is there really a question whether it is permitted to violate shmiras einayim in order to secure a “nicer shirt”? That’s a “necessity”?

    OK, so you think that that’s a problem (although assur might be taking it too far). What about somebody who has just enough shirts to wear? Do you think he’s allowed to go to the mall to get another shirt, seeing as he doesn’t absolutely “need” it?

    yekke2: Excellent point.

    frumnotyeshivish:

    As long as the ultimate goal of the trip is permissible, and one is trying to accomplish the goal in the most efficient way (i.e. no pritzus free equivalent “darka acharina”), I would find it hard to make a blanket issur on going even to places where you KNOW there is pritzus. If you KNOW that you will have hirhurim it’s a different story.

    I do agree that in the vast majority of such cases, there would indeed be no issur. But as you yourself pointed out, there are very few black and white rules here. Would you still say that there would be an inyan, milsah di’chassidus style, to refrain from going to those places?

    TJA908228:

    The people here are spending their spare time pondering how to lead their lives in the way best reflecting God’s will, as expressed in the axiom Elokim shel ailu soneh zeemah ho, the God of the Jews despises immorality. Do you seriously have nothing better to do with your time than lob childish insults and inane comments?

    Mods, does a comment like that really belong on this site?

    Sometimes, when it elicits answers like yours 🙂

    #1094282
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “be a good husband, a caring and loving father etc.”

    Shmiras einaim (or lack thereof) can positively or negatively influence ones ability to be a good husband/father.

    #1094283
    BYbychoice
    Member

    I am still not understanding how a male can find it ok to go to a place he feels he shouldnt go. Where ever it is,there will be both genders dressed in ways anyone frum should not see! If you wouldnt want to see it,then neither does your mother,wife,sister or daughter.

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